Why I cringe when people say it is all about choice

[childeye]

God IS Love.....Man is NOT love...

The light of man and the life of man is Love and is God's word. The inner man agrees with the law but wars with the flesh. Man is a flesh vessel of spirit. Every man is love in some measure or he would be insane.

God demonstrated or showed his love towards us while we were "yet" sinners. God stretched and extended his arm of love and compassion down to fallen man by sending his only begotten Son into the world to shed his blood for remission of sin. God has said in the word if "ye" love me you will keep my commamdments. Walking in obedience according to the will of God is how the world through us can see the love of God abiding in our everyday lives.

I don't disagree with anything you say here. I'd just add that Love fufills the law.

We are living espistles known and read of all men living sacrifices from a free and willing heart of love towards God not out of obligation as God gave us the gift of eternal life freely no strings attached.

I take issue only because you say from a free and willing heart of love towars God. I agree that a freewill is a willing heart of love twards God. But I don't believe in the freewill that is based on denying God and does not come from a free and willing heart of love towards God.

God in redemption did not make man a slave to his will or his righteousness when he washed away our sins.

I think you mean regeneration instead of redemption since we are yet to be redeemed. What's wrong with being a slave to God? I want to be His slave.

Instead God set fallen man free from the slavery of sins bondage unlike Satan who held fallen man captive to sin after he caused the fall of man.

Yes it is this sin that I earlier said is the freewill I don't believe in. I said God set us free so as to have a freewill that would willingly come with a loving heart towards Him.

God set man free from sin by the shed blood of Jesus on the cross thus giving man access back to the Father restoring his fellowship with man.

Well we sure didn't do it by our disability to sin unless you count crucifying him.

One can come in simple faith and eat freely of the bread and wine without price ot reject the Lord's table.

Not if he has no faith.

God does not use subtleness through lies to trick man back into right relationship with him.

Who said He does?

God is not a pupiteer he doesn't force some to choose him and force others to reject him for whosoever will call on the name of the Lord shall be saved and can walk in fellowship with their Creator and maker.

The prodigal son returnes willingly after seeing his folly. He left willingly too, when he was ignorant of how good he had it. The Truth of God's person is a force we must submit to or die. Of course, I am not saying we are puppets, I am saying there are is the Highest power of God and to go against it is to be under the power of sin. For God gave men over to the lusts of their flesh to become abominations. How does that fit with your freewill theory that we are in control?

[Floatingaxe]

No other emotions exist apart from the existence of Love, even the spirits of darkness need light to create shadows.

Poetic but not based in truth.

Respectfully, emotions aren't ever fleeting.

They absolutely are and can never be a good indicator of the truth of any situation. We are challenged by God to renew our minds, to take dominion over our thoughts, and to cast out thoughts that are contrary to God's word. thoughts are often coloured by emotions and we are called to discipline our thinking to harmonize with God's word and to come into subjection to righteousness.

There is a word of God in every man that is our sentient being and our light.

More poetry but that isn't the truth. He has put the breath of life in every individual, but not His word.

That love in me needs to believe in Love, otherwise I die inside. The opposite of faith is doubt. Those are both emotion changers.

Actually, the real opposite to faith is fear.

You may think it is your choice, but you are being moved by powers of darkness against yourself if you choose to act on what darkness tells you to.

God gives everyone the power of choice. We can sin with it or do works of righteousness with it.

Emotions are always Light and dark and each have their opposites depending on whether you are walking towards the light or away.

Emotions are neutral. We either are walking in Christ or walking in the flesh.

No---God calls us to love like He does---by an act of the will---to choose to love in spite of everything that rises up to prevent it.

I agree with you completely. God's Love embraces what is lowly and unlovely, because they need it more. That is even what this thread is about, for God chose the lowly and despised things rich in faith.

No one needs God's love any more than anyone else. We are all lowly and despised before we meet Jesus.

1 Corinthians 1:26-31

26 Remember, dear brothers and sisters, that few of you were wise in the world’s eyes or powerful or wealthy when God called you. 27 Instead, God chose things the world considers foolish in order to shame those who think they are wise. And he chose things that are powerless to shame those who are powerful. 28 God chose things despised by the world, things counted as nothing at all, and used them to bring to nothing what the world considers important. 29 As a result, no one can ever boast in the presence of God.

30 God has united you with Christ Jesus. For our benefit God made him to be wisdom itself. Christ made us right with God; he made us pure and holy, and he freed us from sin. 31 Therefore, as the Scriptures say, “If you want to boast, boast only about the LORD.”

[Guest]

.... Choice has never actually been the problem, the rub has always been in the origination of choice. Does God bring about that choice or is man the author of his choice....

Pretty Much

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

What He Says

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Revelation 22:16-17

~

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

[childeye]

'childeye' said, No other emotions exist apart from the existence of Love, even the spirits of darkness need light to create shadows.

Poetic but not based in truth.

It is absolutely true. Floatingaxe, are you aware that all lies are a usurping of Truth? Truth existed before lies. That is a foundational Truth. If you don't see that, no wonder you see Love as a choice rather than the ultimate passion.

Childeye said, Respectfully, emotions aren't ever fleeting.

They absolutely are and can never be a good indicator of the truth of any situation. We are challenged by God to renew our minds, to take dominion over our thoughts, and to cast out thoughts that are contrary to God's word. thoughts are often coloured by emotions and we are called to discipline our thinking to harmonize with God's word and to come into subjection to righteousness.

Yes we must renew our minds to cleanse us of lies we once listened to believed. Lies of Satan are ever in the air trying to deceive us. We must care for others and that is our true nature when lies are disposed of. You can never convince me emotions are fleeting. There is always an emotion at play, if not positive , it is negative. Happiness is always desired and should not be despised. You make it sound like you are studying to be a Bhuddist or a Vulcan. Only robots don't have feelings. I beg your pardon, but I have some concern that you seem to count apathy a good thing. God does not operate out of indifference. Emotion derives from the French word esmovoir- to set in motion. It also very similar with the word spirit which means to animate or make move.

Chldeye said, There is a word of God in every man that is our sentient being and our light.

More poetry but that isn't the truth. He has put the breath of life in every individual, but not His word.

Sorry floatingaxe but you are wrong about this. John 1,

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.

Actually, the real opposite to faith is fear.

Fear is indeed one of the consequences of lack of faith in love. Perfect Love casts out all fear. But unbeleif or lack of faith in love consequently creates fear. That is why I said if you had no love in you, you would be insane with fear. This has been proven scientifically by the way.

God gives everyone the power of choice. We can sin with it or do works of righteousness with it.

We've been through this before. Choice has no power in of itself. Choice is made out of necessity. But men's choices are subject to knowledge and ignorance of Truth. That is where the power is, so as to be enabled to choose correctly. Please pardon my saying so, but your outlook as I perceive it, seems to count the options as equal in value since you count the choice between them as a power.

Childeye said, Emotions are always Light and dark and each have their opposites depending on whether you are walking towards the light or away.

Emotions are neutral. We either are walking in Christ or walking in the flesh.

Emotions are neutral? That makes no sense. We know the flesh lusts and with vile passions, while walking in Jesus is to believe in the ultimate passion. Either you're for him or against him, there is no neutral position.

No one needs God's love any more than anyone else. We are all lowly and despised before we meet Jesus.

Some need charity more than others, that is a simple fact to prove.

[AnotherSinner]

Childeye,

I still feel as though I am not understanding you. You mention both will and free will in a bit of your posts on this topic. Can you help me understand your perspective of both? This way perhaps I might understand more of what you are trying to say in regards of man not really having choice. I am still just...not grasping your point of view. My apologies. I want to make sure I understand your views before I dare say I agree or disagree fully for whatever reasons that I may.

Thanks....

May God Bless You

Dani

[Floatingaxe]

Floatingaxe, are you aware that all lies are a usurping of Truth? Truth existed before lies.

That is unquestionably true.

Yes we must renew our minds to cleanse us of lies we once listened to believed. Lies of Satan are ever in the air trying to deceive us. We must care for others and that is our true nature when lies are disposed of. You can never convince me emotions are fleeting. There is always an emotion at play, if not positive , it is negative. Happiness is always desired and should not be despised. You make it sound like you are studying to be a Bhuddist or a Vulcan. Only robots don't have feelings. I beg your pardon, but I have some concern that you seem to count apathy a good thing. God does not operate out of indifference. Emotion derives from the French word esmovoir- to set in motion. It also very similar with the word spirit which means to animate or make move.

Satan isn't the only one who lies to us---our emotions lie to us also. they lie and they come and go like the weather---that is fleeting. No one is exempt from fickle feelings. Happiness is a good feeling, but it is only dependent on our circumstances. True joy is from God and it is not an emotion, but a state of being that rules a life in spite of emotions.

You are reading into my words and getting something totally off the wall! Buddhist? Vulcan? Apathy good? My goodness.

More poetry but that isn't the truth. He has put the breath of life in every individual, but not His word.

Sorry floatingaxe but you are wrong about this. John 1,

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.

That says nothing about the word of God being in us. His life force is in every human being---those who know Him and those who hate Him. His word is Christ, and we need to receive Him...by an act of our will.

Fear is indeed one of the consequences of lack of faith in love. Perfect Love casts out all fear. But unbeleif or lack of faith in love consequently creates fear. That is why I said if you had no love in you, you would be insane with fear. This has been proven scientifically by the way.

It is known by Christians who know the word that fear is the opposite of faith.

We've been through this before. Choice has no power in of itself. Choice is made out of necessity. But men's choices are subject to knowledge and ignorance of Truth.

Choice is a power and a privilege we have as human beings.

Childeye said, Emotions are always Light and dark and each have their opposites depending on whether you are walking towards the light or away.

Emotions are neutral? That makes no sense. We know the flesh lusts and with vile passions, while walking in Jesus is to believe in the ultimate passion. Either you're for him or against him, there is no neutral position.

You are misunderstanding what I am saying. As humans we have been created with an entire spectrum of emotions---the same emotions that God has. None are dark and all are good, when a Christian is walking in Christ. So, in that sense, they are neutral, depending on the spiritual condition of the person. However, a born again believer can still sin in the expression of his/her emotions.

Some need charity more than others, that is a simple fact to prove.

That is false. We all need the love of God in the same way.

[childeye]

Childeye,

I still feel as though I am not understanding you. You mention both will and free will in a bit of your posts on this topic. Can you help me understand your perspective of both? This way perhaps I might understand more of what you are trying to say in regards of man not really having choice. I am still just...not grasping your point of view. My apologies. I want to make sure I understand your views before I dare say I agree or disagree fully for whatever reasons that I may.

Thanks....

May God Bless You

Dani

Those who do not distinguish the difference between "will" and "freewill" are not able to comprehend anything I am saying since they cannot see through the semantics at play. They become confused between the subjective and objective points of view involved in the discussion regarding choice. For the word "choice" actually carries two different meanings, option and decision. Decision is applied to the will and is a purely subjective view of choice. Hence objectively speaking, if the option is not there, there cannot be a choice made and only can a choice be made when there is placed before it an option. Moreover one's decision making is subject to knowledge and ignorance regarding the options. This reveals much about the gullibility of Eve, since in scripture it was actually Satan that proposed the choice of disobeying God, not God or mankind. The word free placed in front of will implies all decisions are made without any divine intervention, external circumstances, the will of the flesh, coercion, antecedent events, and without restraint or compulsion from any separate entities. While it is fair to say the will of man was free in the garden before the fall, it is not fair to say, the will was then free afterwards. And it is through Christ, that by a rebirth of the spirit of God a man may again hope to be free in his will. The importance of this is necessary so that one can have the mind of Christ that says "forgive them Father for they know not what they do".

I hope the following explanation might help. It is not mine, but I find it accurate according to what I believe the Holy Spirit has showed me. It is self-evident and can be corroborated in most any dictionary.

Taken from:

Freedom/Bondage of the Will at Monergism.com

Eleven (11) Reasons to Reject Libertarian Free Will by John Hendryx

Does the bible teach that man has free will?

47. When the question of free will arises, it is imperative that we define our terms very carefully. By “free,” do we simply mean that we make real choices apart from external coercion, or do we mean that we can choose any theoretically possible option, without being necessarily constrained by our natural inclinations, prejudices, and desires? If we mean the former, then the term “free” is unnecessary and misleading, for real choice without external coercion is part of the very definition of “will”. If I make any choice at all, I do so willingly, because it is what I want to do; I am not constrained from the outside, and therefore, I cannot say in my defense, “Something took control of my body and forced me to do what I didn't want to do – I'm not to blame!”. No, whatever I have done, I have done willingly, and I am responsible to God for my actions.

But if we mean the latter, that we have the power to choose to do good or evil, to obey God or not to obey him, or at least to believe or disbelieve his gospel, as many people intend to suggest by the term “free will,” then we are in direct contradiction to many scriptures. We are “free” to do what we want to do, but we are bound in what we want by our evil nature and desires. We may do as we please, but we cannot please as we please. We cannot use our will to shape our natures, but rather, our natures determine how we will use our wills. Thus, the bible says very often, and in many different ways, that we are utterly bound in sin. In our flesh, we cannot please God (Rom. 8:5-8), we cannot understand the things of God (1 Cor. 2:14; John 3:3, 10-13; 14:17), we cannot seek God (Rom. 3:11), we cannot believe in God (John 6:44, 65; 10:26; 12:37-41), we cannot do anything good at all (Job 15:14-16; Prov. 20:9; Jer 13:23; Rom. 3:10-18). We are utterly captive to sin (John 8:34; Rom. 6:20; Tit. 3:3), we are prisoners of the devil and constrained to do his desires (John 8:43-45, 2 Tim. 2:25-26; 1 John 5:19), every impulse of the thoughts of our hearts is only evil continually (Gen. 6:5), and so every action we perform, no matter how “good” we think it is, is actually evil, nothing but “filthy rags” (Isa. 64:6). Ever since the fall, we are not free to do anything good whatsoever; and we can only begin to do good as the Spirit gives us a new nature (Ezek. 36:26-27). We are only free when the Son sets us free (John 8:36).

[childeye]

Childeye said, are you aware that all lies are a usurping of Truth? Truth existed before lies.

That is unquestionably true.

I am glad we agree, for all reasoning that differentiates between lies and Truth can count on this self-evident Truth to distinguish the lies from the Truth.

Consequently I am positive that all shadows need the light to exist. And therefore since God's Word is Love, all spirits of darkness exist by usurping the Spirit of Love.

Satan isn't the only one who lies to us---our emotions lie to us also. they lie and they come and go like the weather---that is fleeting. No one is exempt from fickle feelings.

Our emotions that lie to us are Satanic in nature. All sin is contrary to God and yes these dark emotions are fleeting and fickle. They make false hopes placed in false things and promise us joy but end up in sorrow.

Happiness is a good feeling, but it is only dependent on our circumstances. True joy is from God and it is not an emotion, but a state of being that rules a life in spite of emotions.

I am not sure what you mean by circumstances. Happiness is the norm and darkness usurps it even as lies usrup the Truth. I think we agree on this. Here is a strory about joy and cirumstance completely in line with the point of this thread.

God looked down upon the earth and He saw a little boy with no home and no parents. He was digging in some refuse looking for food. Upon finding a crust of bread he jumped for joy and began thanking God with all his heart. Meanwhile at the same time God saw a man coming out of His plush high rise office building heading home to his large estate. When he got to his brand new porshce he found a tiny scratch and threw his briefcase on the ground, cursing at how unfair it was.

You are reading into my words and getting something totally off the wall! Buddhist? Vulcan? Apathy good? My goodness.

Yes thank God, my concerns have been addressed.

Childeye said, Sorry floatingaxe but you are wrong about this. John 1,

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.

That says nothing about the word of God being in us. His life force is in every human being---those who know Him and those who hate Him. His word is Christ, and we need to receive Him...by an act of our will.

His life force in every human being is His Word, that's what it says and Christ is the Word made flesh. That is how we believe in the Christ, by having God's word in our hearts.

Childeye said, Fear is indeed one of the consequences of lack of faith in love. Perfect Love casts out all fear. But unbeleif or lack of faith in love consequently creates fear. That is why I said if you had no love in you, you would be insane with fear. This has been proven scientifically by the way .

It is known by Christians who know the word that fear is the opposite of faith.

I believe we will be arguing semantics here. Scripture shows men of faith who had the fear of God. Job for one. Scripture also shows men moved by the power of Satan through the fear of death. Semantics.

Choice is a power and a privilege we have as human beings.

It's not a priviledge to choose Satan, and the power behond such a choice are the lies believed by the ignorant.

You are misunderstanding what I am saying. As humans we have been created with an entire spectrum of emotions---the same emotions that God has. None are dark and all are good, when a Christian is walking in Christ. So, in that sense, they are neutral, depending on the spiritual condition of the person. However, a born again believer can still sin in the expression of his/her emotions.

We do have some communication problems. I do believe I said something like this earlier in response to your saying love is an act of will. While I am defending that the will itself is subject to Love or the enemy of Love.

Childeye said, Some need charity more than others, that is a simple fact to prove.

That is false. We all need the love of God in the same way.

I don't see how you can say that it is false since the starving man needs food more than the fat glutton. Granted we all need God but not always in the same way. I think you and I tend to disagree more on terminology than on content.

[Reformed-cross]

.... Choice has never actually been the problem, the rub has always been in the origination of choice. Does God bring about that choice or is man the author of his choice....

Pretty Much

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

What He Says

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Revelation 22:16-17

~

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

Hello Joe:

Its better if you actually answer the objections, when you quote scripture back to me, you have not made a case for or against my objection, youve only avoided actual interaction with the subject and with me. Its precisely because of inward assumptions that scripture can be mis-applied or misunderstood and Ive noticed that you leave only assumptions as the basis of your meanings instead of declaring them.

Its ok with me, you dont have to respond, Im only saying your responses to alot of folks are built on un-spoken assumptions covered over with scripture quotes.

Its ok to declare what you think, what you feel, what you believe and what your opinions are. God loves us for who and what we are, not just that we might be good concordances.

R.E.

[AnotherSinner]

Childeye,

I still feel as though I am not understanding you. You mention both will and free will in a bit of your posts on this topic. Can you help me understand your perspective of both? This way perhaps I might understand more of what you are trying to say in regards of man not really having choice. I am still just...not grasping your point of view. My apologies. I want to make sure I understand your views before I dare say I agree or disagree fully for whatever reasons that I may.

Thanks....

May God Bless You

Dani

Those who do not distinguish the difference between "will" and "freewill" are not able to comprehend anything I am saying since they cannot see through the semantics at play. They become confused between the subjective and objective points of view involved in the discussion regarding choice. For the word "choice" actually carries two different meanings, option and decision. Decision is applied to the will and is a purely subjective view of choice. Hence objectively speaking, if the option is not there, there cannot be a choice made and only can a choice be made when there is placed before it an option. Moreover one's decision making is subject to knowledge and ignorance regarding the options. This reveals much about the gullibility of Eve, since in scripture it was actually Satan that proposed the choice of disobeying God, not God or mankind. The word free placed in front of will implies all decisions are made without any divine intervention, external circumstances, the will of the flesh, coercion, antecedent events, and without restraint or compulsion from any separate entities. While it is fair to say the will of man was free in the garden before the fall, it is not fair to say, the will was then free afterwards. And it is through Christ, that by a rebirth of the spirit of God a man may again hope to be free in his will. The importance of this is necessary so that one can have the mind of Christ that says "forgive them Father for they know not what they do".

I hope the following explanation might help. It is not mine, but I find it accurate according to what I believe the Holy Spirit has showed me. It is self-evident and can be corroborated in most any dictionary.

Taken from:

Freedom/Bondage of the Will at Monergism.com

Eleven (11) Reasons to Reject Libertarian Free Will by John Hendryx

Does the bible teach that man has free will?

47. When the question of free will arises, it is imperative that we define our terms very carefully. By “free,” do we simply mean that we make real choices apart from external coercion, or do we mean that we can choose any theoretically possible option, without being necessarily constrained by our natural inclinations, prejudices, and desires? If we mean the former, then the term “free” is unnecessary and misleading, for real choice without external coercion is part of the very definition of “will”. If I make any choice at all, I do so willingly, because it is what I want to do; I am not constrained from the outside, and therefore, I cannot say in my defense, “Something took control of my body and forced me to do what I didn't want to do – I'm not to blame!”. No, whatever I have done, I have done willingly, and I am responsible to God for my actions.

But if we mean the latter, that we have the power to choose to do good or evil, to obey God or not to obey him, or at least to believe or disbelieve his gospel, as many people intend to suggest by the term “free will,” then we are in direct contradiction to many scriptures. We are “free” to do what we want to do, but we are bound in what we want by our evil nature and desires. We may do as we please, but we cannot please as we please. We cannot use our will to shape our natures, but rather, our natures determine how we will use our wills. Thus, the bible says very often, and in many different ways, that we are utterly bound in sin. In our flesh, we cannot please God (Rom. 8:5-8), we cannot understand the things of God (1 Cor. 2:14; John 3:3, 10-13; 14:17), we cannot seek God (Rom. 3:11), we cannot believe in God (John 6:44, 65; 10:26; 12:37-41), we cannot do anything good at all (Job 15:14-16; Prov. 20:9; Jer 13:23; Rom. 3:10-18). We are utterly captive to sin (John 8:34; Rom. 6:20; Tit. 3:3), we are prisoners of the devil and constrained to do his desires (John 8:43-45, 2 Tim. 2:25-26; 1 John 5:19), every impulse of the thoughts of our hearts is only evil continually (Gen. 6:5), and so every action we perform, no matter how “good” we think it is, is actually evil, nothing but “filthy rags” (Isa. 64:6). Ever since the fall, we are not free to do anything good whatsoever; and we can only begin to do good as the Spirit gives us a new nature (Ezek. 36:26-27). We are only free when the Son sets us free (John 8:36).

Alright, let me see if I am finally grasping this. What you are trying to say is that when it comes to the choice to believe or not believe in God there is a matter of will? As free will is perhaps more of an illusion man has cast or set within his/her own mind as a result of the original sin commited in the garden of Eden? For Jesus alone can truly free us in body, mind, spirit, as well as soul?

Yes?