Why I cringe when people say it is all about choice

[OneLight]

I don't know where you are going here. We were discussing free will. You stated that man lost his free will when Adam sinned and I disagreed. Your statement was that "God chose, since he has mercy upon whom He will have mercy", which I do not disagree with, but was showing you that this does not mean we lost our free will because of this, and supported this explaining how I read Romans 8:29 "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren

Yes I think Adam lost his freewill when he ate of the knowledge of good and evil and sin entered in. Once sin entered in there is no more freewill. If you are regarding the ability to choose (the will) as a "freewill", then you will not understand this. A freewill implies the ability to control one's choices and therefore one's destiny. I believe men were fated to die because the knowledge of good and evil was death to carnal beings. As we know scripture concludes all men in sin and Paul relates that sin through deception slew him through occasion of the law. Wherein he says that which I want to do I don't do. Hence sin is a disqualifier for a freewill and man is fated to death because of it.

Again, I disagree. If we lost our free will because of Adam's choice, then we would not be able to say no to sin and never be able to say yes to Christ. Your description makes no sense at all to me. It sounds more of a cop-out, blaming sin for sin itself, removing the responsibility of the sinner for sinning. When we are judged for sinning, is our response to be "I could not help it because I was not free to say no!"?

As for Romans 8:29, God in His foreknowledge sent Hos Word in due time to save those God foreknew would believe, but He did it in a way that favors the lowly and base and despised things so that no one could boast that they had done it by their own wisdom. That's why God has mercy where he will have mercy and why it is not by our freewill...

I still can't follow your reasoning. God looked down through time and saw who would choose to accept His salvation, then he predestined them to be conformed to the image of His Son Jesus. Nowhere does it say He placed the restrictions on this as you imply. Did not God send Jesus to die so the whole world may find salvation? I find no restrictions in salvation.

Salvation is a simple message that was brought forth to sinner in a simple manner. God designed His plan for salvation so the vilest of sinners could understand.

It is not the sinner that has a problem with the Gospel. It is the self-righteous, who think they see that are blinded by it. The Gospel was designed to resist the proud.

So, according to you, a proud person can never be saved? Sin is sin and all who sin are called to salvation. That is the simplicity of scripture.

Mans free will is to surrender his will to Gods will.

I know what you are trying to say. But the will you say that would surrender to God is not free since it is held captive by the lies of Satan. That is what is said all over scripture. If you regard the "will" which makes choices or that we reason, the same as a "freewill", which actually make choices without any restraining or external circumstances or divine intervention, you won't understand that.

According to you it is not free. You have failed to show how this is correct. In fact, your statement that our free will is held captive by Satan is not true. If it was held captive, we would never be allowed to choose Christ and His salvation. I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand?

[OneLight]

Who assisted those who decided to follow God before Jesus asked the Father to send the Helper?

The Christ is the Word made flesh. The Word was before Abraham was.

The Helper did not come until after Christ went back to the Father.

The Holy Spirit testifies to God and Christ. We know this. Since Jesus said he had to go to His Father so as to send the comforter means to me that a change in heaven had to happen upon the return of Christ to heaven as an intercessor for man.

Since man was created, he has been free to choose which path he will follow. He can freely accept where God guides him to go or reject it. God does not pull strings and we react accordingly. Man has always been free to choose his own path. He uses hie free will to make this choice. If you wish to say you are bound to Satan, then you will be bound through your own confession. I will continue to choose to battle Satan at every chance he provides. Satan does not bind me, but he does strongly suggest another way as he did in the garden. That choice is yours to make freely.

You are asking for a testimony and mine is too long to post here.. But here is the short of it. I approached God out of dire need for help. He answered. I said I did not know if Jesus was His son or not. Then He taught me and showed me about the Christ. I could not disbelieve as this experience transcended far above all I had considered reality.

So, you sought God out of your own free will. Thank you.

No, there were external circumstances that drove me to God. I willing sought Him, but not by my freewill. I would be a liar before God to say otherwise.

So, you really didn't choose to accept Christ? You were forced to accept Him? Freewill is IS making the decision freely.

[Floatingaxe]

It is not the sinner that has a problem with the Gospel. It is the self-righteous, who think they see that are blinded by it. The Gospel was designed to resist the proud.

This reasoning is a little off.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is resisted by sinners--the self-righteous are included in that entire group. It is designed to bring light, hope and eternal life to those who choose to accept it---by the grace of God and the conviction and convincing of Holy Spirit moving in one's life.

It is GOD who resists the proud.

1 Peter 5:5

In the same way, you younger men must accept the authority of the elders. And all of you, serve each other in humility, for

“God opposes the proud

but favors the humble.”

childeye, take a gander at this:

[childeye]

Seeking God is a choice one makes when moved by the Holy Spirit toward Him.

Yes this is probably true in most cases if not in all. And since this is true it cannot be by freewill. For the freewill would be the will of a man that is sovereign and not moved by any Spirit whether it be Light or dark to hold true with the common definition.

He can be ignored and grieved, but God is pleased and blessed by a person who allows himself to be led---and he makes Himself available.

Men do cooperate willingly wether they serve God or Satan, but the difference is that Satan deceives to gain compliance and God rules in Truth. That is why I have no problems with those who say a freewill is one that sees the Truth of God.

Here, the word of God commands us to seek, call, ask, knock....all choices we need to make, that even a child can see:

This child sees that men are just dust without His Spirit. This child knows he must acknowledge that, so that he may ask for it. This child knows that God's Spirit causes one to return good for evil, sacrificing himself to save others. This child knows that without this Spirit men return evil for evil and sacrifice others to save themselves.

Isaiah 55:6

Seek the LORD while you can find him. Call on him now while he is near.

Matthew 7:7

Keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you.

Matthew 7:8

For everyone who asks, receives. Everyone who seeks, finds. And to everyone who knocks, the door will be opened.

[Floatingaxe]

1 John 1:5-10 Amplified Bible

5And this is the message [the message of promise] which we have heard from Him and now are reporting to you: God is Light, and there is no darkness in Him at all [no, not in any way].

6[so] if we say we are partakers together and enjoy fellowship with Him when we live and move and are walking about in darkness, we are [both] speaking falsely and do not live and practice the Truth [which the Gospel presents].

7But if we [really] are living and walking in the Light, as He [Himself] is in the Light, we have [true, unbroken] fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses (removes) us from all sin and guilt [keeps us cleansed from sin in all its forms and manifestations].

8If we say we have no sin [refusing to admit that we are sinners], we delude and lead ourselves astray, and the Truth [which the Gospel presents] is not in us [does not dwell in our hearts].

9If we [freely] admit that we have sinned and confess our sins, He is faithful and just (true to His own nature and promises) and will forgive our sins [dismiss our lawlessness] and [continuously] cleanse us from all unrighteousness [everything not in conformity to His will in purpose, thought, and action].

10If we say (claim) we have not sinned, we contradict His Word and make Him out to be false and a liar, and His Word is not in us [the divine message of the Gospel is not in our hearts].

[childeye]

Again, I disagree. If we lost our free will because of Adam's choice, then we would not be able to say no to sin and never be able to say yes to Christ.

Yes, you are beginning to perceive me correctly, except for one thing. I do not believe that we must say yes to any and all sin. But rather we all have some degree of sin. We were compromised with a defiled conscience. We therefore can say yes to Christ more often than not depending on our degree of sin, because the very life in our souls is God's Word that was compromised. I believe this is what the prophets, Jesus, and the apostles all taught.

Your description makes no sense at all to me. It sounds more of a cop-out, blaming sin for sin itself, removing the responsibility of the sinner for sinning. When we are judged for sinning, is our response to be "I could not help it because I was not free to say no!"?

AHHH, One Light. Alas, you comprehend what I am saying on this thread. Sin happens because of sin. That's why sin is defined as seperation from God. The seperation from divine Love and wisdom makes one wicked. If any man or Angel thinks wisdom comes at will, he\she is compromised in wisdom and becomes a fool. But God be thanked for His mercy wherein through the Holy Spirit He reveals our foolish blindness wherein we think we see and convicts us of sin.

This creates the sincere contriteness of the heart as we confess our blindness. What you call a cop out is humility and the end of pride and vanity. That is why when we are judged, we are judged by what measure of judgment we use upon others. The merciful will receive mercy. It is even because people believe in freewill that they count themselves responsible for sin and count people as making excuses if they blame sin fior sin. But Paul himself taught this; Romans 7:17 "Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me". And also Jesus, when answering the Pharisees why he would stay with sinners said, "The sick need a doctor" and also Jesus suffered the consequences of men's sin on the cross saying, "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do".

In the context of thought I am describing, men sin because of blindness to the Truth not by a freewill. Consider the following scripture. Please note the words of the Pharisees that believe in freewill and the words of the Christ who knows they do not see their hypocritical and self condemning error.

John 9:39-41

39And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

40And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?

41Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

They say "We see" and so condemn themselves of wanting to sin by volition.

As for Romans 8:29, God in His foreknowledge sent His Word in due time to save those God foreknew would believe, but He did it in a way that favors the lowly and base and despised things so that no one could boast that they had done it by their own wisdom. That's why God has mercy where he will have mercy and why it is not by our freewill...

I still can't follow your reasoning. God looked down through time and saw who would choose to accept His salvation, then he predestined them to be conformed to the image of His Son Jesus. Nowhere does it say He placed the restrictions on this as you imply. Did not God send Jesus to die so the whole world may find salvation? I find no restrictions in salvation.

Yes I believe Jesus did die so the world may find salvation, but by election of God not freewill, so that it be by grace to be seen and testified to in due time, so as to destroy vanity. Consequently it is God's desire to save all men but only by His Mercy and hardening so that it is not by men's wills. Otherwise vanity would not be destroyed, since men could and would, still think they had some power of goodness in and of themselves wherein they gloried in themselves for choosing God. This was the temptation in the garden and the allure of the Tree of knowledge of good and evil, (freewill). Hence, the Pharisees who believed in freewill ,were the blind leading the blind. And if I blame them for their blindness I am still yet blind. Hence I best thank God for healing my blindness lest my blindness return because of vanity.

It is not the sinner that has a problem with the Gospel. It is the self-righteous, who think they see that are blinded by it. The Gospel was designed to resist the proud.

So, according to you, a proud person can never be saved?

All people are proud, but God has chosen the lowly to enter ahead of the high so as to put away pride. Many of the first will be last. Who loved the master more?Those forgiven much Love much. Those forgiven little, love little. Hence the Gospel makes the lowly things high and brings the high things low, so that no flesh can glory.

But the will you say that would surrender to God is not free since it is held captive by the lies of Satan. That is what is said all over scripture. If you regard the "will" which makes choices or that we reason, the same as a "freewill", which actually make choices without any restraining or external circumstances or divine intervention, you won't understand that.

According to you it is not free. You have failed to show how this is correct. In fact, your statement that our free will is held captive by Satan is not true. If it was held captive, we would never be allowed to choose Christ and His salvation. I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand?

I understand perfectly what you are saying. Yes indeed, even Jesus said the will is held captive by Satan and so cannot choose Him. Deliverance is the act of God's grace not men's freewill, setting men free from their deception wherein they think they are free by revealing theTruth they are deceived. And this is done through God's Spirit by His grace.

John 6:44-45

King James Version (KJV)

44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Luke 4:18-19

18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

John 8:33-45

King James Version (KJV)

33They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

34Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

35And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

36If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

37I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

38I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

39They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

40But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

41Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

Ephesians 2:2-8

King James Version (KJV)

2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ephesians 4:7-8

King James Version (KJV)

7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

2 Timothy 2:25-26

King James Version (KJV)

25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

[childeye]

Since man was created, he has been free to choose which path he will follow. He can freely accept where God guides him to go or reject it. God does not pull strings and we react accordingly.

It may seem that way, but it is denial of God's all knowing station at the Godhead and His Loving intent that precedes disobedience. The will that knows this does not ponder a choice.

If you wish to say you are bound to Satan, then you will be bound through your own confession.

The snare of the devil is that we are free when we are able to disobey God and live. That was the first lie ever told to man. Hence I denounce any referance of freewill that would be defined through disobedience to God or obedience to Satan. The confession that I was held captive unto death in believing that lie, is what sets me free in my will to serve the Truth of God and live. For man shall live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

I will continue to choose to battle Satan at every chance he provides. Satan does not bind me, but he does strongly suggest another way as he did in the garden. That choice is yours to make freely.

So Satan strongly suggests another way? Not for me, not anymore. And let me show you why. The choice offered are two images of God. One by Satan and one by Christ. Satan portrays God as one who would sacrifice me to save Himself. Christ portrays God as one who would sacrifice Himself to save me. Which one do you think I will trust? The image offered by Satan was done in the garden when we were innocent and without knowledge of guile. The one offered by Jesus is like a Light in a darkness I thought was the light. Hence I was not free until I saw the Truth of it. So it is the sight of my eyes that makes me whole, not my ability to make choices.

Matthew 6:22-23

King James Version (KJV)

22The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

23But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

So, you really didn't choose to accept Christ? You were forced to accept Him?

God as my witness, the Truth was more powerful over my will than the lie.

Freewill is IS making the decision freely.

I know that. That is why I said the Truth set me free, by God's grace not by my will. Question; How can one who believes he has a freewill oppose themselves?

2 Timothy 2:25-26

King James Version (KJV)

25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

[OneLight]

Again, I disagree. If we lost our free will because of Adam's choice, then we would not be able to say no to sin and never be able to say yes to Christ.

Yes, you are beginning to perceive me correctly, except for one thing. I do not believe that we must say yes to any and all sin. But rather we all have some degree of sin. We were compromised with a defiled conscience. We therefore can say yes to Christ more often than not depending on our degree of sin, because the very life in our souls is God's Word that was compromised. I believe this is what the prophets, Jesus, and the apostles all taught.

There is just one sin that cannot be forgiven and that is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. I read nowhere in scripture where we are held back due to different degrees of sin. In fact, I read just the opposite: Luke 7:47 "Therefore I say to you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little.”

Can you provide scripture where we are held back due to the degrees of our sins?

[childeye]

It is not the sinner that has a problem with the Gospel. It is the self-righteous, who think they see that are blinded by it. The Gospel was designed to resist the proud.

This reasoning is a little off.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is resisted by sinners--the self-righteous are included in that entire group. It is designed to bring light, hope and eternal life to those who choose to accept it---by the grace of God and the conviction and convincing of Holy Spirit moving in one's life.

It is GOD who resists the proud.

1 Peter 5:5

In the same way, you younger men must accept the authority of the elders. And all of you, serve each other in humility, for

“God opposes the proud

but favors the humble.”

childeye, take a gander at this:

Floatingaxe. You are correct about the proud, however the lowly and despised things are ashamed, although this too is pride. I loved your strawberry post. I only saw one strawberry worth putting in my mouth, not much of a choice. Imagine if I could see no difference, I would have many choices. There is one truth that may live in all men and many lies that can live in one man. I think you and I approach the cross from different directions, but as we draw closer we begin to see eye to eye.

[OneLight]

Your description makes no sense at all to me. It sounds more of a cop-out, blaming sin for sin itself, removing the responsibility of the sinner for sinning. When we are judged for sinning, is our response to be "I could not help it because I was not free to say no!"?

AHHH, One Light. Alas, you comprehend what I am saying on this thread. Sin happens because of sin. That's why sin is defined as seperation from God. The seperation from divine Love and wisdom makes one wicked. If any man or Angel thinks wisdom comes at will, he\she is compromised in wisdom and becomes a fool. But God be thanked for His mercy wherein through the Holy Spirit He reveals our foolish blindness wherein we think we see and convicts us of sin.

This creates the sincere contriteness of the heart as we confess our blindness. What you call a cop out is humility and the end of pride and vanity. That is why when we are judged, we are judged by what measure of judgment we use upon others. The merciful will receive mercy. It is even because people believe in freewill that they count themselves responsible for sin and count people as making excuses if they blame sin fior sin. But Paul himself taught this; Romans 7:17 "Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me". And also Jesus, when answering the Pharisees why he would stay with sinners said, "The sick need a doctor" and also Jesus suffered the consequences of men's sin on the cross saying, "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do".

In the context of thought I am describing, men sin because of blindness to the Truth not by a freewill. Consider the following scripture. Please note the words of the Pharisees that believe in freewill and the words of the Christ who knows they do not see their hypocritical and self condemning error.

John 9:39-41

39And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

40And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?

41Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

They say "We see" and so condemn themselves of wanting to sin by volition.

Wow ... that is a very crooked road you walk down, my friend. Do you think what Adam and Eve did was sin? If so, then according to you, sin must of been in them before they disobeyed God. If not, when was it they first sinned and what was that sin that was then carried down to all humans?