Can Women Lead The Flock?

[exrockstar]

Galatians 3:28

There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus.

that scripture pertains to salvation not church order.

[Matthitjah]

An interesting spin is this. God is in the Restoration business. In the beginning God looked and saw no help mate for Adam. They even looked to the animals and found no one that could help Adam. God then took a rib from Adams side (from Adams side not from beneath him or even above him) and made a Woman to help Adam. Adams job was to take dominion over and to subdue the Creation that God had made.

Ge 1:27

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Ge 1:28

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moves upon the earth.

The command to subdue and to dominate were for both the man and the woman.

Originally, the man and the woman were meant to rule together. In Christ all things are in the process of restoration to the original intent.

There's more but that's just a thought to start with.

Peace,

Dave

Nice thought, but in the Word of God the spiritual restoration has already been accomplished in the new creation (2Co 5:17; Gal 6:15).

The physical restoration will not be accomplished until the end of time (Ro 8:19-23), in the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness (2Pe 3:13), where there is no death (Rev 21:1-4).

In the meantime, we are in the unrestored physical creation, where the Word of God makes it clear that women are not to have authority over men in the church (1Ti 2:13) or in the home (Eph 5:23).

Explain the context historically of 2nd Timothy please.

[Matthitjah]

Galatians 3:28

There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus.

that scripture pertains to salvation not church order.

Why did God create Gender? Oh' and welcome back.

[SavedByGrace1980]

What a fascinating topic!

IMHO, Scripture is pretty clear as to the role of women in the church (and it is a ROLE. It's not about women's VALUE or equality in Christ.)

With that said, the question for us is this - What do we as Christians do with it (given that we live in this fallen, imperfect world)?

Christ is, of course, our model of perfection. He WAS, IS, and FOREVER WILL BE perfect.

Scripture, however, gives us other examples (or descriptions) of perfection. In Genesis, we see the perfect creation (before the Fall). In Ephesians 5 and 6 we see Paul describe the perfect family unit. In I Corinthians 12, he describes the perfect human body - one in which all the body parts work together in harmony for the good of the whole body.

I Cor. 12:14-27:

14 Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.

15 Now if the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18 But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19 If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” 22 On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24 while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25 so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.

Now if I could I'd like to take this and apply it to a situation we see in the real world everyday - people with handicaps. For instance, if someone is blind, does not their other senses "take over" some of the functions of their non-working eyes? Has it not been said that blind people seem to have an acute sense of hearing, or touch? While these senses do not EXACTLY replace the functions of the eyes, they do "step up" so to speak so the body can continue to function.

Likewise, when someone loses their hearing, they have to find other ways to communicate. Sign language, or closed-captioning on TV, for instance. The point here is that when a body is imperfect - or better term dysfunctional - it adapts. It adapts to strive to function and to do what a body should do. It adapts in order for it to survive.

I believe the corollary to what Paul was talking about is this: In order for women to fulfill their roles in the Church - men need to be performing THEIR roles. Just as men need to be leaders in the home, they need to be leaders in the church. This is a description of perfection (or as close as we can get to it on this side of Heaven)

Where you see women acting as heads of households (except in cases of the death of a spouse), it is usually a case of A MAN falling short of performing HIS role.

Likewise, when you see a woman "teaching" or "preaching" in a church, it is an indicator that a man - somewhere, somehow - is not performing HIS role (or perhaps a better way of saying it is a man is not responding to a prompting of the Holy Spirit). I personally believe - for instance - if a woman is teaching a mixed, adult Sunday School class, that she is doing so because a man - somewhere - did not respond to a prompting of the Holy Spirit to teach that class.

So let me repeat the question I posed at the beginning: What do we as Christians do with it (given that we live in this fallen, imperfect world)?

Well, we can start by encouraging men to fulfill their Scriptural, God-given roles. Ultimately, that will bring us in line with Scripture - to the point that women are able to fulfill their roles in the Church because MEN are fulfilling theirs.

Blessings!

-Ed

[Guest]

An interesting spin is this. God is in the Restoration business. In the beginning God looked and saw no help mate for Adam. They even looked to the animals and found no one that could help Adam. God then took a rib from Adams side (from Adams side not from beneath him or even above him) and made a Woman to help Adam. Adams job was to take dominion over and to subdue the Creation that God had made.

Genesis 1:27

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Genesis 1:28

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moves upon the earth.

The command to subdue and to dominate were for both the man and the woman.

Originally, the man and the woman were meant to rule together. In Christ all things are in the process of restoration to the original intent.

There's more but that's just a thought to start with....

Nice thought, but in the Word of God the spiritual restoration has already been accomplished in the new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 6:15).

The physical restoration will not be accomplished until the end of time (Romans 8:19-23), in the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness (2 Peter 3:13), where there is no death (Revelation 21:1-4).

In the meantime, we are in the unrestored physical creation, where the Word of God makes it clear that women are not to have authority over men in the church (1Timothy 2:13) or in the home (Ephesians 5:23).

And Here You, A Mere Woman Are Teaching The Fellows :24:

And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God,I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: Acts 2:17-18

[AnotherSinner]

Timothy is not only a letter Paul wrote to Timothy, but a PASTORAL EPISTLE. It was written with the purpose of revealing church order, the positions and qualifications of those within the roles of authority in the church, as well as the women's place in the church.

Please read for yourselves, if requested...I can put here in the thread what is read from my own bible, which is a King James Version, right here for others to read.

I say it again, the argument here that women are called to teach is NOT in agreement with that is written in God's word. Passages here are crystal clear on that:

Chapter 2

III. Instructions About Prayer and the Place of Women in the Church

1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 7Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. 8I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

9In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; 10But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

13For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Chapter 3

IV. Qualifications of Bishops (Elders) and Deacons

1This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) 6Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

8Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; 9Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. 10And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. 11Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. 12Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 13For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus. 14These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly:

15But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

16And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

I will leave it at that. If scripture is not enough, then I do not know what is....

[Bekkie]

Male leadership? too many men fail today..and we( women) are too quick to jump in..... Look at our world it is out of wack...Men need to lead. Christianity was/is considered sissy, for women etc... Christianity is truly anything but sissy. Read of the martyrs no sissys male or female there. We ( Christians in general) have becomes complacent. We know better then the Creator what we need or need do. He has laid out the rolls we should follow Him, not this missed up world.

Women who understand who they are in Christ. Pro 31:10 Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies.

[SavedByGrace1980]

Hmmmm. . . .I'm not sure the Word of God makes anyone's obedience dependent on anything but faith.

We are to do everything God's way, rather than the expedient way (1Co 10:31; Col 3:17).

I Cor. 10:31. So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God.

Col. 3:17 And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

I agree wholeheartedly with those Scriptures.

I suppose the question for me is this: When I encounter a situation where (for instance) a woman is teaching a Sunday School class; or (for instance) a woman is preaching from the pulpit, how should I respond?

I have a brother in Christ who - when a woman became the teacher of our Sunday School class - left our church (more generally, our denomination) and joined another. Yet, I remained. (and I am there to this day).

You'll note that I referred to him as a brother in Christ. If you asked him, he would refer to me the same way. Yet we (apparently) disagree over this issue.

I don't have an easy answer as to how we - as Christians - can disagree over issues such as this, yet still be "in Christ." Yet I am convinced that we can.

One of the ways that I suppose I reconcile it in my mind is to remind myself (as I clumsily attempted to do in my previous post) that perfection does not exist on this Earth. That is not to say that Scripture does not describe perfection - whether it be the pre-fall Creation, the family unit, or the Church.

To put it another way - show me a church body that adheres to the "women shall not teach or lead men" admonishment (admirable though that be), and I'll show you a church that is imperfect in a different area. I cannot be any other way, since the church is made up of imperfect people.

Blessings!

-Ed

[Floatingaxe]

Going to read the introduction to the book of Timothy. Still feel as though as man is the head of the marriage....that he should be the same in the church. If I am wrong, then hopefully God will set me straight. Just do not see how women would be teachers when it clearly states man...over and over...like in this passage here that I shared also above. Again in Timothy.

Both the husband and the wife are the head of a family---together...under Jesus Christ. As far as the Church is concerned, only Jesus is the head. Men are not heads over women. In the church, women serve God alongside men, shoulder to shoulder, doing the work they are called by God to do. No one has the right to detain anyone from their anointing.

In Christ there is no male or female, bond or free, Jew or Gentile. I don't know why so many people forget that one.

You are not in agreement with the Word of God.

Eph 2:23 - "The husband is head of the wife as Christ is head of the church, his body."

The church is the body of Christ, of which he is the head; and Eve was the body of Adam, of which he was the head.

That is the order God established at creation.

Actually most people are not in agreement with the word of God when they misinterpret scripture to say that women are under a curse, that they cannot fulfill their calling to preach the word, and that they are under men in rank. We are created as equal partners with men to serve God equally and to serve mankind equally. The word for 'head' in scripture concerning men, women and Jesus Christ, is used with the meaning, 'source'. God is the source of Christ, Christ is the source of the Church, and man (Adam) is the source of woman. It is not about rank.

[AnotherSinner]

To put it another way - show me a church body that adheres to the "women shall not teach or lead men" admonishment (admirable though that be), and I'll show you a church that is imperfect in a different area. I cannot be any other way, since the church is made up of imperfect people.

Blessings!

-Ed

You make a valid point. None of us is perfect, so naturally there will be short comings in the church. What we do about it in answer?

Pray and strive as we should in our daily lives to erradicate sin from it.

May God Bless You

Dani