Predestination

[Floatingaxe]

God foreknows everything, but He allows man to choose salvation or reject it. In spite of His will, and His love for individuals, and His desire that no one perish, most will. (Matthew 7:14)

2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

[OneLight]

foreknowledge does not mean looking down through time seeing in advance what is going to happen (Ac 4:28)

I like to discuss one issue at a time. The verse you gave is taken out of context if you are trying to show the above statement.

Acts 4:27-30

“For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done. Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word, by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.”

Foreknowledge is exactly that it says, knowing something before it happens. In the case of how it is used in scripture, Romans 8:28-30 "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.", it means just that. God, being Omnipresence, looked down through time and knew who would accept salvation through the free will He gave all, and knowing, He predestined them to conform to His Son before He even created the foundations of this earth. To me, it is that simple.

Would you care to discuss our differences of understanding foreknowledge?

Sure, but mine is pretty straightforward and simple.

The operative phrase is in blue above.

determine = to fix (to set or place definitely; establish) conslusively or authoritatively; to decide; to ordain

God knows in advance what is going to happen because he has determined that it shall happen.

And to what God determines there is no altering.

I believe my explanation is straightforward also. What you say does not disprove that He foreknew what was going to happen. Scripture does not contradict scripture, but builds it up. It is our understanding of scripture that may be in error.

When it is written that God foreknew, He foreknew. Foreknew is self explanatory. I believe you agree that He is Omnipresent, moving through time without end. Since He is not constrained by time, why do you find it hard to see that He was able to look down through time and know what choices we make and determine how to proceed accordingly?

To better understand your position, I have a couple more questions for you, if you don't mind answering.

1. Do you believe God gave us freewill or do you believe otherwise?
2. If you believe otherwise, how do you believe?

Do you think we have adequately dealt with "determined before to be done?"

If it does not mean what I state, then what does it mean?

Yes, God determined what would be the answer to their prayers. It could mean nothing else, but it cannot be used to disprove what I said about God foreknowing.

Shall we continue?

Yes.

Does the operative phrase refer to their prayer, or to what happened to Jesus at the hands of those who were gathered against him?

If it refers to what happened to Jesus, then they did what God had determined before to be done.

Some eternal principles are shown here:

1) It is God, not men, who determines what happens.

2) What God determines, shall happen, because he has determined that it shall happen.

Not so fast Eleanor. I answered your question, now you should answer mine.

To better understand your position, I have a couple more questions for you, if you don't mind answering.

1. Do you believe God gave us freewill or do you believe otherwise?
   
2. If you believe otherwise, how do you believe?

As I said, I deal with one thing at a time so nobody takes control of any situation nor does anything get lost with the influx of many words and/or questions. This shows respect toward each other.

[OneLight]

foreknowledge does not mean looking down through time seeing in advance what is going to happen (Ac 4:28)

I like to discuss one issue at a time. The verse you gave is taken out of context if you are trying to show the above statement.

Acts 4:27-30

“For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done. Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word, by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.”

Foreknowledge is exactly that it says, knowing something before it happens. In the case of how it is used in scripture, Romans 8:28-30 "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.", it means just that. God, being Omnipresence, looked down through time and knew who would accept salvation through the free will He gave all, and knowing, He predestined them to conform to His Son before He even created the foundations of this earth. To me, it is that simple.

Would you care to discuss our differences of understanding foreknowledge?

Sure, but mine is pretty straightforward and simple.

The operative phrase is in blue above.

determine = to fix (to set or place definitely; establish) conslusively or authoritatively; to decide; to ordain

God knows in advance what is going to happen because he has determined that it shall happen.

And to what God determines there is no altering.

I believe my explanation is straightforward also. What you say does not disprove that He foreknew what was going to happen. Scripture does not contradict scripture, but builds it up. It is our understanding of scripture that may be in error.

When it is written that God foreknew, He foreknew. Foreknew is self explanatory. I believe you agree that He is Omnipresent, moving through time without end. Since He is not constrained by time, why do you find it hard to see that He was able to look down through time and know what choices we make and determine how to proceed accordingly?

Good question.

Because Scripture does not present a God whose will or plans are

• conditioned on or determined by (Ex 9:16; Ac 4:28),
  
• thwarted by (2Chr 20:6; Job 9:12, 42:2; Is 14:27; Da 4:35),
  
• or who sustains loss because of (Jn 6:37; Ac 13:48)
  
  Rather, Scripture presents a God
  • whose plans, on the contrary, cannot be thwarted by man (Job 5:12; Ps 33:10),
    
  • who ordains or decrees everything (Lam 3:37), down to the last detail (Ps 50:11, 139:16, 147:4; Mt 10:30),
    
  • and who is looser to no man (Mt 5:26).

  It is the notions of men, not of Scripture, who present God as simply knowing in advance what men are going to do.

  The Scriptures present God as causing men to do what he wills them to do (Ge 20:6; Ex 3:21, 14:17, 23:27; Dt 2:25, 30; Jos 11:20; 1Sa 10:9; 2Sa 24:1; 1Kgs 22:23; 1Chr 5:26; Ezr 1:1, 5, 7:27; Ne 2:12, 7:5; Pr 21:1; Eze 14:9; Da 1:9; Jn 6:37; Ac 2:23, 4:28, 13:48; 2Co 8:16; Rev 17:17).

  The God presented in the Scriptures is sovereign.

  Everything that happens is according to his secret and all-wise counsels (Is 53:10; Da 11:36; Ac 2:23, 3:18, 4:28; 13:48)

  determined in eternity past before the worlds were ever created (Mt 25:34; Eph 1:4;

  Rev 13:8, 17:8).

  For Scripture's answer to man's objection to this, see Ro 9:19-21.

You fail to understand that Gods plans are not changed by man. You also do not understand what I presented. What I presented is God, before He created anything, looked down through time and knew the beginning from the end, and everything in between, and planned accordingly. Why do you see this as man changing Gods mind? His mind was made up far before man was created.

Two things:

1) I do not see this as man changing God's mind. Rather, it presents God as conditioning his plans on the actions of men.

To say that God "planned accordingly," is to say his plans were conditioned on the actions of men.

Yes, it does. God loves us enough to include us into His plans. What so you think a relationship is? One thing is for sure, a relationship is not a dictatorship.

2) Who/what is the cause of the beginning from the end, and everything in between?

If it is men, then God's plans are conditioned on the actions of men.

Do you see God so threatened by man that He will not consider His creation? God created man with a free will to make a choice for themselves. His love, as we find in 1 Corinthians 13 tells us that God will not force His love on anyone. We have to accept it. This being the case, He looked through time to see who will accept His love and planned accordingly. This, in no means, goes against God at all, but proves His love for us.

"Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails."

But Scripture does not present God as conditioning his plans or actions on anything.

It presents, in the red above, just the opposite, a God who causes to happen what he wills to happen.

Would you like to address some of those Scriptures?

I don't accept a barrage of questions nor do I don't chase scripture. You want me to read it, provide it. That is the respect I am giving you.

Scripture tells us that God loves us enough to give us the ability to choose. This has been the case from the beginning of mankind and will remain until the end. I reiterate what I posted in the beginning, showing that predestination came after foreknowledge, not before. Notice the sequence.

Romans 8:28-30 "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."

[*]Foreknew[*]Predestined[*]Conformed[*]Justified[*]Glorified

It is as it is written.

[godrulz]

This is a classic theological question debated for centuries (sovereignty, free will, decretalism, problem of evil, election, etc.). The main views of providence are Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, and Open Theism. After decades of study, I believe the idea of two motifs in Scripture (take all passages at face value) with some of the future is predestined (e.g. first/second coming of Christ, corporate vs individual election of the church...the verses you quoted as individual..., etc.), while other aspects are partially open, unsettled, contingent (avoiding the problem of making an omnicausal God responsible for evil contrary to an omnicompetent God's holiness).

God macro vs micromanages, is providentially in control without being all or tightly controlling (at the expense of love, freedom, relationship, moral responsibility).

www.opentheism.info (read intro page and see if that does not resonate with reality).

You are likely sorta Calvinistic. I would suggest that their view of predestination is not how God has chosen to govern. Election is corporate, in Christ, conditional, not individual, by decree, unconditional.

I would not be dogmatic until one understands the strengths and weaknesses of the major views.

Deterministic predestination is not compatible with libertarian free will (compatibilism is not true free will, but still deterministic). Exhaustive definite foreknowledge is compatible with exhaustive predestination, but not with libertarian free will. Molinism's 'middle knowledge' is essentially deterministic and philosophically convoluted. Arminian simple foreknowledge depends on 'eternal now', a wrong view of time/eternity (vs endless time). One cannot explain its mechanism, so it begs the question.

Are you an open theist? I really don't see how open theism could be realistic at all, from the position of God answering prayers, God giving prophesy with full assurance, and with God having foreknowledge of our sin enough to send Jesus to die for these sins before they would happen. You can drive a bus through the holes in OT.

I do however agree with you about corporate election and predestination. God has predestined the church body, not the individual, to salvation. IMHO.

Yes, guilty as charged (Open Theist). The view is an enhanced view of prayer (determinism is far less compatible with prayer than free will views). An omnicompetent God does not need to be omnicausal. A superior chess master can beat a novice without foreknowing or controlling (it is about ability/intelligence, not control). The world had centuries of sin before Christ actually came and died. The plan was implemented in Gen. 3 based on present knowledge, not exhaustive future knowledge (so that was a lame argument). The standard objections to Open Theism and Calvinistic proof texts and misrepresentations of Open Theism have been capably answered.

[godrulz]

I keep it as simple as possible. God, being Omnipresence, looks down through time and knows who will accept salvation through the free will He gave all, and knowing who will, He predestines them to conform to His Son before He even created the foundations of this earth. To me, it is that simple.

All these titles just confuse me ...

This is more a simple foreknowledge, Arminian view. It assumes something without proving it (begs the question). It also confuses time and space. The future is not yet, does not exist. It is not a thing, place, space that God can look at like a film and see it. In your view, free will creatures have settled the future and lived their lives before they are even born?! This is absurd, nonsensical, even for an omniscient God (you also confuse omniscience and omnipresence). Predestination, free will, exhaustive foreknowledge are simply not compatible. Calvinistic appeals to mystery, antimony, paradox, etc. don't cut it when there is a more biblical, coherent view available.

[godrulz]

I've always liked the statement " Predestination and free will are two sides of the same coin, We may not be able to reconcile them but we cannot separate them either."

I believe this is one of those areas, like many, that needs what Paul prays for in Phillipians 1:9 "real knowledge" experientual knowledge, not just a head knowledge but a working out and growing understanding of knowledge as we serve in His calling.

I would suggest predestination, sovereignty, foreknowledge, free will need to be understood properly. Predestination does not have to mean pan causality. Sovereignty does not have to mean meticulous control. Foreknowledge does not have to be exhaustive. Omniscience can be retained without EDF of future free will contingencies. Libertarian free will is more defensible than compatibilism (an attempt to reconcile a contradiction). Sovereignty and free will are said to be true, but unresolvable. I am going to suggest that the problem is a wrong view of the two and that a right view can be embraced without contradiction or inexplicability.

[godrulz]

I think Dr. Spiros Zhodiates said it best in his greek Word study:

Because it is neither possible nor permissible for us to pry into God's secret counsel, it is not proper to be fixated with determining who the predestined are. Instead, we should contemplate the glories of what they are predestined to, i.e., salvation, adoption, or glory.

Predestination is corporate, but it has to be individual as well. Our God knows how many hairs are on our heads. He directly deals with each and every individual human being. Predestination is NEVER ever linked to the fate of unbelievers. I think it is a gross misinterpretation of scripture to place Predestination upon unbelievers in the sense that God predetermined them to the Lake of Fire. God said there will come a time when he will send unbelievers a strong delusion because they absolutely would not receive the truth. In other words, the offer for Life was right in front of them, and they themselves rejected of their own accords.

2Th 2:9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,

2Th 2:10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

2Th 2:11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,

2Th 2:12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

I appreciate Spiros, but he has a Calvinistic bias and other great thinkers would disagree with him. Election is corporate, but cannot also be individual (it is either/or). To predestine believers necessitates the other terrible conclusion of double predestination (you can soften the words, but saving some and not saving others he could save is damning them apart from their choices, assuming TULIP). You are trying to mix determinism and free will (not possible).

[godrulz]

This is a very tough thing to explain, because we are Predestined, yet we do have free will. Paul was a chosen vessel, and as such, God stopped him in his tracks to reveal Christ to him. He didn't do that for Gamileo or the many other deceived Pharisees of Paul's day. Even so, Paul still had to act upon that knowledge, and choose to follow Jesus. God created Paul to be his Apostle, but Paul had to freely become a bondslave to Jesus and follow him.

You can read through scripture, and see how God has already told us how future events will go down. That means he created certain people to fill certain rolls in getting us there. At the same time, they still choose to do those things. Like Jeremiah, he knew us before he created us in the womb, yet for better or worse, good or bad, he made us the way we are. We do choose what we do, but if we were created with full foreknowledge of how we would behave, is that truly free will?

Man no longer has free will, unless he is saved. Adam lost our corporate human free will when he sinned. We get it back in Christ. Until a man is saved, he is a slave to sin and evil through his evil nature.

Total depravity (Augustinian/Lutheran overstatement of bondage of the will) is not total inability. No free will=no love, relationship, moral responsibility. This does not mean we initiate, provide salvation or save ourselves. Our mind and will is involved in receiving or rejecting truth, Christ, God, Bible, gospel. No free will=no ability to choose between chocolate and vanilla.

[godrulz]

I think Dr. Spiros Zhodiates said it best in his greek Word study:

Because it is neither possible nor permissible for us to pry into God's secret counsel, it is not proper to be fixated with determining who the predestined are. Instead, we should contemplate the glories of what they are predestined to, i.e., salvation, adoption, or glory.

Predestination is corporate, but it has to be individual as well. Our God knows how many hairs are on our heads. He directly deals with each and every individual human being. Predestination is NEVER ever linked to the fate of unbelievers. I think it is a gross misinterpretation of scripture to place Predestination upon unbelievers in the sense that God predetermined them to the Lake of Fire. God said there will come a time when he will send unbelievers a strong delusion because they absolutely would not receive the truth. In other words, the offer for Life was right in front of them, and they themselves rejected of their own accords.

2Th 2:9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,

2Th 2:10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

2Th 2:11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,

2Th 2:12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

Read Romans 9 and then tell me God doesn't destine some for destruction. Satan foremost is destined for destruction.

Rom. 9-11 is about the corporate election of Israel for service/mission. It is not about individual double predestination, a view that impugns the nature and character of God.

[godrulz]

"Predestination is corporate."

What does that mean?

Israel and the Church were predestined/elected to be the people of God. Those who freely receive His grace are added to the group individually. The individual is not arbitrarily decreed to be in the group from eternity past, no choice of their own. Calvinists proof text these corporate verses and try to apply them to individuals (decretal) to support TULIP. The biblical mindset was highly corporate, while modern North Americans are very individualistic.