I don't understand the trinity

[other one]

When you say deity, what exactly do you mean? Do you believe that Jesus Christ is fully God, and fully man? Do you believe him a lesser God, or do you believe what scripture says concerning him? In Christ dwells all the fullness (nothing lacking) of deity.

I believe before I could even begin to discuss this we would have to know what that word "God" means.

You ask me if Jesus is fully God...... what do you mean by "God"

[godrulz]

A denial of the Deity of Christ is cultic/Arian, a denial of biblical, historical, orthodox Christianity. Oneness/modalism is not as severe, but they are also wrong. It is nonsense to link trinity with pagans, just Catholics, just creeds, etc. It is biblically defensible.

[saved34]

I believe before I could even begin to discuss this we would have to know what Word is.

Thank you for this response, Other one. You have answered all that I need to know.

[other one]

lol my friend, you misunderstand me when I say Orthodox Christianity. I'm talking about all those born again believers throughout Church history who have fought against all manner of heresies and false teachings, especially when it comes to our Lord. The Church is the pillar and the ground of the truth, and it has always fought against this kind of thinking. Whether you know it or not, you are a part of Orthodox Christianity, or you are a part of a cult. To teach that Christ was a lesser creature in his pre incarnation is false, to not understand that Christ in taking on him the flesh of man, is why he is subject to the Father in all things, and lesser than the Father is at the heart of the confusion.

You spend a lot of words to say little, Saved34. It seems that you may be calling me a heretic....

[saved34]

Word equals truth. Not Jesus.

Katy, if this is not talking about Jesus, who is it talking about that was "in the beginning with God, was God, and then manifest in the flesh"? You are reaching very hard in the denial of our Lord's deity.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Joh 1:15 John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'

1Jn 1:1 What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life--

1Jn 1:2 and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us--

2 entities mentions here...God AND Savior, Christ Jesus.

lol no English or Greek scholar on the planet would agree with your construction of such a clear sentence. " The Great God AND Savior, Jesus Christ". " "And" connects God and Savior as making reference to Jesus. You cannot explain it away so simple.

When Moses asked God who he was, God said he was I AM. I am is God, not Jesus.

The Jews knew full well what our Lord meant when he said that. Which is why they wanted to kill him. Our Lord was sinless and it would have been blasphemy for him to use the great "I am" if he were not worthy.

Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

Joh 8:59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.

These verses do not negate that Christ is the son of God.

Those verses were not given to negate the clear biblical fact that Jesus is the Son of God. They were given because God the Father calls Jesus God. You can read just like I can dear Katy.

[saved34]

lol my friend, you misunderstand me when I say Orthodox Christianity. I'm talking about all those born again believers throughout Church history who have fought against all manner of heresies and false teachings, especially when it comes to our Lord. The Church is the pillar and the ground of the truth, and it has always fought against this kind of thinking. Whether you know it or not, you are a part of Orthodox Christianity, or you are a part of a cult. To teach that Christ was a lesser creature in his pre incarnation is false, to not understand that Christ in taking on him the flesh of man, is why he is subject to the Father in all things, and lesser than the Father is at the heart of the confusion.

You spend a lot of words to say little, Saved34. It seems that you may be calling me a heretic....

God forbid, Other One. I do not even know you well enough to say such a thing, neither do I have the capacity to judge another man's heart or intent. I can say that I believe you to be in great error concerning this issue. This is why I ask questions. The way you responded gave me my answer. That is all. This is not a personal attack and I apologize if it is coming out that way.

[other one]

Saved, my wife cam in and interupted me while ago.... I changed my post but you have already posted on that thought.

What I was trying to ask is what the word God means. You ask me if Jesus is fully God and I would want to know what that word means to you.

I can't answer that untill I understand your concept of what God is.

BTW, Jesus is "I AM" that interfaced with Moses. "I AM" is not the Father. That is the "form of God" that Jesus existed as before he entered the flesh...

Moses, Aaron two people that I can never remember their names and 70 of the elders went up and saw the God of Israel.

Yet Jesus tells us that no man has ever seen the Father. So if the Bible can not be broken there is no way that the God we know of in the Old Testament is the Father. When I discovered that it made the entire trinity thing fall into place for me.

Problem is that "god" most likely doesn't mean the same to me as it does you so it's impossible for us to have a discussion about it.

[saved34]

Word equals truth. Not Jesus.

Katy, if this is not talking about Jesus, who is it talking about that was "in the beginning with God, was God, and then manifest in the flesh"? You are reaching very hard in the denial of our Lord's deity.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Joh 1:15 John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'

1Jn 1:1 What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life--

1Jn 1:2 and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us--

2 entities mentions here...God AND Savior, Christ Jesus.

lol no English or Greek scholar on the planet would agree with your construction of such a clear sentence. " The Great God AND Savior, Jesus Christ". " "And" connects God and Savior as making reference to Jesus. You cannot explain it away so simple.

When Moses asked God who he was, God said he was I AM. I am is God, not Jesus.

The Jews knew full well what our Lord meant when he said that. Which is why they wanted to kill him. Our Lord was sinless and it would have been blasphemy for him to use the great "I am" if he were not worthy.

Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

Joh 8:59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.

These verses do not negate that Christ is the son of God.

Those verses were not given to negate the clear biblical fact that Jesus is the Son of God. They were given because God the Father calls Jesus God. You can read just like I can dear Katy.

The term "Word" means truth...not Christ.

John 17: 17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

1 Thess 2:13For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

And do not take the word of truth utterly out of my mouth, For I wait for Thine ordinances. (Ps 119:43)

The sum of Thy word is truth, And every one of Thy righteous ordinances is everlasting. (Ps 119:160)

Well Kay, you have answered my concerns as well. Unless you honestly look at the scripture provided, and not explain it away, there is really no grounds for me to stand on. I appreciate the dialog.

[Guest shiloh357]

My comments in bold

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Word equals truth. Not Jesus.

Verse 1 tells us that the Word was God and was with God. Jesus IS the Truth and Jesus was/is God (Jn 14:6).

Verses 2-4 tell us that the Word was/is a Person. That Person is the One who created the universe. Colossians 1:16-17 tells us that Jesus is the Creator.

Tit 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

2 entities mentions here...God AND Savior, Christ Jesus.

Jesus is God our Savior according to the Greek construction. God is not mentioned as a separate entity from Jesus. God and Savior are descriptions of Jesus. He is both God and our Savior. There is only one article in the Greek for both indicating that they are one and the same. It simply refers to our God and Savior: None other than Jesus Christ.

Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

When Moses asked God who he was, God said he was I AM. I am is God, not Jesus.

Even Jesus' enemies were smarter than that, KatyAnn. They knew Jesus was claiming to be God and they intended to kill Him on the stop for that very thing. Anyone willing to look at the text honestly admits it.

Heb 1:5 For to which of the angels did He ever say, "YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU"? And again, "I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME"?

Heb 1:6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."

Heb 1:7 And of the angels He says, "WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE."

Heb 1:8 But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

Heb 1:9 "YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS."

Heb 1:10 And, "YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;

These verses do not negate that Christ is the son of God.

Jesus as the Son of God simply refers to Jesus' rank. "Son of God" is actually a Hebraism that refers to Jesus as God:

“In Jewish usage, the term “son of…” did not generally imply any subordination, but rather equality and identity of nature. Thus Bar Kokhba, who led the Jewish revolt (132-135 A.D.) in the reign of Hadrian, was called by a name that means “Son of the Star.” It is supposed that He took this name to identify himself as the very Star predicted in Numb. 23:14. the name Son of Consolation (Acts 4:36) doubtless means, “The Consoler.” “Sons of Thunder” (Mark 3:17) probably means “Thunderous men.” “Son of man” especially as applied to Christ in Daniel 7:13 and constantly in the New Testament essentially means “the Representative Man.” Thus, for Christ to say, “I am the Son of God” was understood by His contemporaries as identifying Himself as God, equal with the Father, in an unqualified sense.” (J. Oliver Buswell, A Systematic Theology of the Christian Religion Grand Rapids: Zondervan 1962)

[Guest shiloh357]

Jesus said that the Father was his God. He also said that the Father gave him all power and authority...... doesn't sound equal to me.

And he did say that he would be subject to the father after he made his enemies his footstool (Well actually Paul said it but that's good enough for me) So you can take your orthodox teaching to someone else who's never read the bible.

So tell me if Jesus says the Father is greater than he..... and that the Father is his God...... how in the world can you get the understanding that they are equal....... If Paul says that he will be subject to the Father how can you say that they are equal.

Sorry, that view you express just doesn't make sense according to scripture. It is also true that Jesus did create the world, for everything came through him...... but it came from the Father...... From the Father through Jesus.

Part of the problem is understanding the interplay between His deity and His humanity. As a man Jesus could say that the Father was His God. Keep in mind that when when Jesus spoke and operated in His humanity, He was modeling how we should live. When Jesus was in the Garden of Gethsemene He was modeling how we should handle the Will of God. When Jesus was dealing with temptation in the wilderness He was modeling for us how to handle the devil and temptation. As a man, Jesus was not equal to the Father, but Jesus was also wholly God in every way and in that sense He was and is equal to the Father in terms of divine essence/substance.

The Term of Son of God was a Hebraism that indicated an equality with God and Jesus was condemned by the Sanhedrin as a blasphemer for claiming to be the Son of God. It is also interesting to note that John uses a very interesting Greek form that makes Jesus' as the Son of God different from the other ways that "sons of God" is used. The grammar in the Greek usage of that phrase is unique only to Jesus. Not only that, but in John 3:16 that is emphasized even more that Jesus was the "only begotten" which is a reference to the unique, one-of-a-kind "Son of God."

When it comes to the Trinity, there is no earthly frame of reference. We have nothing in our experience that equates to it. There is no earthly analogy that compares to the Trinity. We don't have to have all of the answers to believe it. It doesn't make sense to our human senses, and it wasn't intended to make sense to us. The question is do you have the faith to believe God even when He doesn't make sense to you?