Christian Zionism

[rich08]

I have been able to do some research looking at the arguments of those who support Christian Zionism and those oppose it:

My basic understanding of Christian Zionism is:

1. It argues for a return of the Jewish people to their homeland and the resumption of Jewish sovereignty over it.
   
2. The relationship between God and the nation of Israel is still valid today (in other words the Old Testament Covenant is still valid).
   

Unfortunately (at least in as far as material available on the internet) the argument is a very heated argument and it often takes the form of personal and hateful attacks against those who hold one position or other. In the context of Palestine those who advocate Zionism are seen as pro-Jewish and anti-Muslim and those who support it and conversely those who oppose the theological arguments are seen as anti-semitic and pro-Muslim.

There are many reasons why Christians support Zionism from different spectrums of the church (including liberals and evangelicals). I would however argue a Biblical approach. It is quickly apparent that there are Biblical arguments made both in favour of Christian Zionism and Biblical arguments made against.

I have yet to undertake a detailed study of the Biblical arguments for one or other position. However, it would appear that the basic arguments relate to:

• the understanding of Old Testament prophecy (whether certain prophecies have been fulfilled or not, whether they were conditional prophecies and are no longer valid, whether the fulfillment of the prophecy takes place in the church); and
  
• the role of the old covenant following Christ’s death and resurrection (does the ‘New’ covenant in Christ replace (or modify) the Old Covenant or does it run alongside)?
  

I’d welcome helpful comments.

[jasoncran]

been down that road. i dont see modern isreal as in prophecy but i do believe that the jews have a right to be there. that is why i said what i said with" i support isreal because im jewish plain and simple"

i believe god will letonly those that are saved and hebrews dwell in the land.modern isreal is a secular state that allows freedom of religion and even allows islam in her borders.

i understand the reasons why the jewish state does that but if you read the prophecies its after they repent do they get the land.

[nebula]

1. The relationship between God and the nation of Israel is still valid today (in other words the Old Testament Covenant is still valid).

Rich, what do you mean by "the Old Testament Covenant"?

There are more than one covenant of the Lord in the Old Testament -

The Edenic Covanent

The Adamic Covenant

The Noahic Covenant

The Abrahamic Covenant

The Mosaic Covenant

The Land Covenant

The Davidic Covenant

So, which Old Testament Covenant are you referring to? Have they all become invalid today?

[Guest yod]

In the context of Palestine those who advocate Zionism are seen as pro-Jewish and anti-Muslim and those who support it and conversely those who oppose the theological arguments are seen as anti-semitic and pro-Muslim.

Though I do believe that we're seeing a "clash of the Titans" between YHVH and all pretenders to His Throne, it should be noted that not all arabs are muslim and most jews of Israel are atheist, so this isn't a religious struggle except to the extremists. Even for most of them, religion is more of a tool for manipulation than a deeply held moral conviction, in my opinion.

So this statement of yours I have quoted depends on what you mean by "pro" or "anti" muslim, I suppose.

Every christian zionist I know (and there are many) wants to see the salvation and betterment of the arabs, because they also are sons of Abraham and cousins to the jews.

We believe that all life is precious and Yeshua came for every person, wanting that none should perish. That perspective demands that the truth is supreme, though, and we aren't getting it from the anti-zionists (which is only another word for anti-semitic) who try to make police action of defending innocent civilians by Israel the moral equivalent of car bombs and suicide bombers from recognized terrorist organizations, like the PLO, Hamas, Hezbollah, or any of the various names used by these violent paramilitary groups

As someone whom you would surely label a zionist, I oppose the way the leaders of the arabs treat their subjects so brutally. I believe the Palestinian people have been used as pawns in a larger arab political agenda to destroy Israel, since they can't do that militarily. Though Israel must be on guard against the "army" of Palestinians, they still treat the individual arabs better than any other nation in the region does!

There are palestinian arabs who have won elections and serve in the Israeli Knesset. They are openly against Israel and the jews, yet a part of the very government they hope to destroy!?

Where else do you see that in the middle east? Yet the enemies of Israel overlook that and create an absolutely false narrative designed to incite strong emotions of hatred and bloodlust. They lie to their own people in order to manipulate individuals into a sense of hopelessness, where they will be ready to commit suicide for the political ambitions of their brutal warlord leaders.

I'd say the leadership of the Palestinians are as "anti-muslim" as they are "anti-zionist" in that regard. They don't care about anyone's life at all.

[rich08]

1. The relationship between God and the nation of Israel is still valid today (in other words the Old Testament Covenant is still valid).

Rich, what do you mean by "the Old Testament Covenant"?

There are more than one covenant of the Lord in the Old Testament -

The Edenic Covanent

The Adamic Covenant

The Noahic Covenant

The Abrahamic Covenant

The Mosaic Covenant

The Land Covenant

The Davidic Covenant

So, which Old Testament Covenant are you referring to?

Neb,

Thanks for raising this: it shows how important it is that you understand each other. I was using the term to refer to them all. It is right to remember that there are many.

Have they all become invalid today?

This I think is one of the key questions in the debate. There are differences over the question 'are they valid and if so how are they valid?'

In the context of Palestine those who advocate Zionism are seen as pro-Jewish and anti-Muslim and those who support it and conversely those who oppose the theological arguments are seen as anti-semitic and pro-Muslim.

Though I do believe that we're seeing a "clash of the Titans" between YHVH and all pretenders to His Throne, it should be noted that not all arabs are muslim and most jews of Israel are atheist, so this isn't a religious struggle except to the extremists. Even for most of them, religion is more of a tool for manipulation than a deeply held moral conviction, in my opinion.

So this statement of yours I have quoted depends on what you mean by "pro" or "anti" muslim, I suppose.

Every christian zionist I know (and there are many) wants to see the salvation and betterment of the arabs, because they also are sons of Abraham and cousins to the jews.

We believe that all life is precious and Yeshua came for every person, wanting that none should perish. That perspective demands that the truth is supreme, though, and we aren't getting it from the anti-zionists (which is only another word for anti-semitic) who try to make police action of defending innocent civilians by Israel the moral equivalent of car bombs and suicide bombers from recognized terrorist organizations, like the PLO, Hamas, Hezbollah, or any of the various names used by these violent paramilitary groups

As someone whom you would surely label a zionist, I oppose the way the leaders of the arabs treat their subjects so brutally. I believe the Palestinian people have been used as pawns in a larger arab political agenda to destroy Israel, since they can't do that militarily. Though Israel must be on guard against the "army" of Palestinians, they still treat the individual arabs better than any other nation in the region does!

There are palestinian arabs who have won elections and serve in the Israeli Knesset. They are openly against Israel and the jews, yet a part of the very government they hope to destroy!?

Where else do you see that in the middle east? Yet the enemies of Israel overlook that and create an absolutely false narrative designed to incite strong emotions of hatred and bloodlust. They lie to their own people in order to manipulate individuals into a sense of hopelessness, where they will be ready to commit suicide for the political ambitions of their brutal warlord leaders.

I'd say the leadership of the Palestinians are as "anti-muslim" as they are "anti-zionist" in that regard. They don't care about anyone's life at all.

Yes - don't disagree with anything here.

[Guest yod]

Being anti-zionist does not automatically make one anti-semitic. There are jews who are anti-zionist.

Within the community of Israel and the jewish people, that is a legitimate debate and I don't wish to interfere.

Outside of that, anti-zionist is a euphemism for those who want the "final solution" imposed on the jews.

[nebula]

Have they all become invalid today?

This I think is one of the key questions in the debate. There are differences over the question 'are they valid and if so how are they valid?'

The first item to check is if the Coveant is conditional or unconditional.

The second item to check is if a Covenant is no longer in effect, when did it cease?

Among the Unconditional Covenants:

The Adamic covenant - still active or ceased?

The Noahic covenant - still active or ceased?

The Abrahamic covenant - still active or ceased?

The Davidic covenant - still active or ceased?

So with the Land Covenant - where does it stand?

[Guest yod]

Being anti-zionist does not automatically make one anti-semitic. There are jews who are anti-zionist.

Within the community of Israel and the jewish people, that is a legitimate debate and I don't wish to interfere.

Outside of that, anti-zionist is a euphemism for those who want the "final solution" imposed on the jews.

Yod, that is simply not true. I am a Christian and I am anti-zionism. I certainly am not anti-semitic. I recognize jews as the chosen people and pray for their salvation. I wish no harm on anyone. But, I agree with the jews who do not support zionism.

How can you say you pray for their salvation while denying them a homeland?

No, I maintain that there is no reasonable argument against jewish people living in Israel. The ultra-religious who are against zionism believe that God must be the one who establishes the nation in accordance with all unfulfilled messianic prophecy. Since I believe God is sovereign, then He allowed the circumstances which got us to today, and the fulfillment of messianic prophecy will follow.

But outside of that inter-familial squabble, those who deny the jews access to the land THEY bought and THEY reclaimed from swamps and desert wasteland that no one else wanted, are not interested in the welfare of jews or their claim to an ancient homeland.

There are various reasons they may state, but it's unreasonable for anyone to say that Jews should not be allowed to live safely in Israel.

PERIOD.

[Guest yod]

Funny how agreeing with orthodox jews makes one anti-semitic.

it is an extremely small minority which is the very definition of FRINGE. Even if their position is right, it is still an inter-family debate among the jewish people.

Are you an orthodox jew? If not, then you are even a smaller fringe aligned with many anti-semitic groups, so what does that prove?

Yes, they have lived in Zion since the days of Abraham and Moses, but since the Romans destroyed Israel they have lived as dhimmis (Islamic second-class citizens) and had no protection against those who want them dead. Arafat's uncle, al-Husseini, was the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and the initiator of Hitler's muslim brigades in the decade before Israel became a nation. Would jews still be safe in Zion under that political situation?

What is your opposition to the only free country in the middle east being run by it's owners, the Jews, anyway?

The current fact is that there is a nation called "Israel" today. They are not going to disappear because some fringe group doesn't think they were ordained of God.

The overwhelming majority of anti-zionists simply want the jews to be annihilated and Israel to become part of the Islamic caliphate.

[nebula]

I happen to agree with the Jews who feel this way. Funny how agreeing with orthodox jews makes one anti-semitic.

Orthodox Jews also do not believe in Jesus and many persecute Jews who do come to faith in Messiah Yeshua.

Likewise, Orthodox Judaism is a redefinition of the faith after the Temple was destroyed, a works-based faith rather than a faith-based faith.