seeking the lost Posted October 17, 2016 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 496 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 209 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/15/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted October 17, 2016 On 10/14/2016 at 7:26 PM, Ezra said: Actually the "first resurrection" (which applies to the just or the saints) is in three phases, just like a Hebrew harvest (1 Cor 15:22-24). 1. The first fruits -- Christ 2. The main harvest -- the Resurrection/Rapture 3. The gleanings -- the Tribulation saints. If there is a "first" resurrection, then there must also be a "second" resurrection, which is the resurrection of the unjust or unsaved. That is just before the Great White Throne judgment. The scripture that I refer to is Revelation 20: 4-6 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. The resurrections that are referred to here in this passage are a guide. It is not a good idea to switch the two or change the time of either which is clearly given. The first resurrection applies only to those who did not worship the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands. This describes a closed set which means everyone not mentioned is excluded from the first resurrection. The purpose of the first resurrection is for these to reign with Christ for a thousand years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salty Posted October 17, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,665 Content Per Day: 0.46 Reputation: 512 Days Won: 3 Joined: 05/11/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted October 17, 2016 11 minutes ago, seeking the lost said: The scripture that I refer to is Revelation 20: 4-6 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. The resurrections that are referred to here in this passage are a guide. It is not a good idea to switch the two or change the time of either which is clearly given. The first resurrection applies only to those who did not worship the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands. This describes a closed set which means everyone not mentioned is excluded from the first resurrection. The purpose of the first resurrection is for these to reign with Christ for a thousand years. What our Lord Jesus said in John 5:28-29 shows there's more to take into account. If the wicked dead are to hear His voice on the same day the asleep saints are raised, then it means there is a general resurrection of the wicked on the day of Christ's return also. This would make sense, because in Rev.20 there are the wicked of the nations living outside the camp of the saints per Rev.22:14-15. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angels4u Posted October 17, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 56 Topic Count: 1,664 Topics Per Day: 0.20 Content Count: 19,764 Content Per Day: 2.39 Reputation: 12,164 Days Won: 28 Joined: 08/22/2001 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 17, 2016 Just wondering Logoman,do you think we're created and have no free will ? Are we sort of a robot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salty Posted October 17, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,665 Content Per Day: 0.46 Reputation: 512 Days Won: 3 Joined: 05/11/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted October 17, 2016 The Pre-Trib Rapture theory began in some Christian Churches first in 1830's Great Britain. It was a doctrine pushed by John Darby who got the idea from the Edward Irving church, or "Brethren" movement in Britain. Others like Cyrus Scofield included the theory in his Scofield Reference Bible published in the Americas. Prior to the 1830's, this Pre-trib Rapture theory was not a doctrine of any Christian Church. The Christian Church as a majority, for 1800 years, held to a Post-trib return of our Lord Jesus and gathering of the Church. There is NO Bible Scripture supporting a Pre-trib Rapture. The idea has to be added to Scripture rather tongue-in-cheek, because there is NO direct Scripture to support it. This is why its proponents so often take Bible Scripture out of its chapter's context while adding long thesis to a single verse, instead of being able to show clear Scripture proof from many Biblical examples. In contrast, Jesus clearly showed His return to gather His Church is to be after the tribulation (Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27) where He made such a direct statement of fact. The "day of the Lord" - the Pre-trib Rapture doctors misteach the events of the "day of the Lord", some of them even making the mistake of teaching the "day of the Lord" begins with the tribulation and continues to the last day of this world. God's Word reveals the events of the "day of the Lord" is for the very FINAL day of this world, and definitely does not begin until that Last Day of this world. The "day of the Lord" is when Apostles Peter and Paul established the day of the end of this present world, and that it will come upon the world "as a thief in the night". The Pre-trib Rapture doctors have traditionally taught that Jesus will come to rapture the Church prior to the tribulation, coming "as a thief in the night". Problem with that is, the "day of the Lord" is what Scripture says will come "as a thief in the night" and... that is also when Jesus said He comes per Rev.16:15 when warning His Church still alive on earth. Thus, Scripture shows our Lord Jesus will return only ONE time, at the end of this world on the "day of the Lord", and that is when He will gather both the asleep saints and the saints still alive on earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted October 17, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.35 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted October 17, 2016 2 hours ago, Salty said: There is NO Bible Scripture supporting a Pre-trib Rapture. Do you know why? The Rapture has nothing to do with the Tribulation. It is just that simple. However, because the Rapture is IMMINENT, and because the Tribulation is not for the Church, it should be clear that there is no need to labor this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted October 17, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.35 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted October 17, 2016 3 hours ago, seeking the lost said: The scripture that I refer to is Revelation 20: 4-6 Right. And that is a reference to the Tribulation saints, who are all beheaded and then resurrected. They are a part of the first resurrection (the resurrections of saints). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted October 17, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.35 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted October 17, 2016 11 hours ago, OakWood said: The Bible says nothing about the Holy Spirit being taken away, it merely mentions the 'restrainer' being taken away. Yes, there are many opinions regarding who the Restrainer is, but since the Bible makes it clear that only God Himself controls Satan, it is more than reasonable to conclude that the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit. 11 hours ago, OakWood said: If it is the Holy Spirit then there can be no new believers during the Tribulation... There have been saints on earth since the time of Abel, and that was long before the Holy Spirit was poured out at Pentecost. So this argument is invalid. Please refer to Hebrews 11. 11 hours ago, OakWood said: The Bible tells us that believers will be persecuted during the Tribulation, so that they may not buy and sell, and that some may even be beheaded. All who refuse the mark will be beheaded, and since the Bible also makes it clear that the entire Church will not be martyred, those are the "Tribulation saints" (as distinct from the Church). 11 hours ago, OakWood said: How can non-believers reign during the Millenium when Christ is in charge and how can there be any new believers if the Holy Spirit disappears? Where did you hear that non-believers reign during the Millennium? And the Holy Spirit is removed only to allow Satan full control for 3 1/2 years. We should not make any further assumptions. 11 hours ago, OakWood said: The pre-Tribulation doctrine is false teaching. It comes from false prophets such as Schofield and Darby, and has no basis in the Bible. This in itself is a false accusation, and Christians are not to bring false accusations against anyone, particularly genuine Christians. Neither Scofield (not Schofield) nor Darby can be justly called "false prophets", so it is the accuser of the brethren who would seek to label them as such. Before you go any further, purchase the Scofield Reference Bible (1909 to 1945) and show us what false teaching is found in his notes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeking the lost Posted October 17, 2016 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 496 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 209 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/15/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted October 17, 2016 On 10/14/2016 at 5:30 PM, RobertS said: There cannot be a Rapture after or during the Tribulation, because there would be no one to repopulate the planet after the Tribulation. Keep in mind that in Scripture says those who sin in the Millennium would die at 100 years old or less, and those taken in the Rapture would not "marry nor be given in marriage, but be as the angels", so they cannot have children. And no one after being translated into immortality will be able to sin anymore. So, who then repopulates the earth with children if all of us are taken up after the Tribulation begins? The only time of a rapture is in conjunction with the resurrection. God is able to take care of the details. Those who sin in the Millennium would die at 100 years old or less is different than the text. If you are referring to Isaiah, Isaiah 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. The days of tribulation are shortened for the sake of the elect. If the days were not shortened there would no flesh be saved. The population of the Millennium are the survivors and the resurrected martyrs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeking the lost Posted October 17, 2016 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 496 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 209 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/15/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted October 17, 2016 On 10/15/2016 at 0:17 AM, RobertS said: 1) Actually, no resurrection is added, because "first" doesn't mean "first in time", but "first in kind", as in preeminence. The righteous are resurrected before the wicked. And if there is no resurrection until after the end of the thousand years, then Scripture breaks itself with the resurrection of the two witnesses after the Beast has them killed. Also, Rev. 14 indicates that they will be "redeemed from the earth". Keep also in mind that Scripture never said before the First Advent that Jesus' coming would be in two parts: this is what threw the "religious machine" of His day when He did arrive. 2) There is no point in a Rapture if Christ is already on His way down, and Scripture is clear that there is a Rapture. God is not the author of confusion, nor is He blithering and disorganized. 3) You never answered my question: who then populates the Millennial kingdom and then rebels against the Lord? Unless you have translated saints rebelling against the Lord or they have the ability to have children (neither of which Scripture says). If the Rapture is anything but Pre-Trib, then Scripture has a lot of problems in it, as those who rebel are natural born on the Earth. The scripture teaches that the dead in Christ will rise first. We, the living, will not proceed them. John does mention the two witness and yet he speaks of the resurrection at the end of the tribulation as the first resurrection. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. The point of the rapture is to take us to a new heaven and a new earth not to separate the wheat from the tares. The tares are taken out first. The Millennium will be populated by those who have survived the tribulation of those days. Except those days are shortened there would no flesh be saved. They will be ruled by those who are raised in the first resurrection and Christ. Malachi 4King James Version (KJV) 4 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. 3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts. 4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments. 5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: No one who is wicked will enter the millennium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted October 17, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.35 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted October 17, 2016 11 minutes ago, seeking the lost said: The scripture teaches that the dead in Christ will rise first. We, the living, will not proceed them. Why is this such an issue? So on the day of the Rapture, the dead in Christ are resurrected, and immediately thereafter, the living saints are transformed and raptured. There is no lag in the two phases of the Resurrection/Rapture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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