seeking the lost Posted October 17, 2016 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 496 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 209 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/15/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted October 17, 2016 1 hour ago, Ezra said: Why is this such an issue? So on the day of the Rapture, the dead in Christ are resurrected, and immediately thereafter, the living saints are transformed and raptured. There is no lag in the two phases of the Resurrection/Rapture. You ask very good questions. It is only a problem for those who do not accept the Word as it is in preference to the way they want it to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salty Posted October 18, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,665 Content Per Day: 0.46 Reputation: 512 Days Won: 3 Joined: 05/11/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted October 18, 2016 11 hours ago, Ezra said: Do you know why? The Rapture has nothing to do with the Tribulation. It is just that simple. However, because the Rapture is IMMINENT, and because the Tribulation is not for the Church, it should be clear that there is no need to labor this point. Neither idea, that a rapture is 'imminent', nor that the tribulation is not for the Church, are supported in God's Word. Those are two false ideas 'created' by men's doctrines of the Pre-trib Rapture theory. Instead, what God's Word teaches is that Christ's Church most definitely WILL... go through the "great tribulation" Jesus taught, and will be persecuted, but those who endure it will be saved at the end of it by Jesus's second coming. That is what the Scriptures teach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salty Posted October 18, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,665 Content Per Day: 0.46 Reputation: 512 Days Won: 3 Joined: 05/11/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted October 18, 2016 8 hours ago, Ezra said: Why is this such an issue? So on the day of the Rapture, the dead in Christ are resurrected, and immediately thereafter, the living saints are transformed and raptured. There is no lag in the two phases of the Resurrection/Rapture. It's because many on the Pre-trib Rapture theory of men don't realize that 1 Thess.4 speaking of when Jesus brings the "asleep" saints with Him means the time of the RESURRECTION, WHICH IS ONLY FOR AFTER THE TRIBULATION. The spiritual blindness the Pre-trib Rapture theory creates on those who fall for it causes them to not realize the above Biblical fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salty Posted October 18, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,665 Content Per Day: 0.46 Reputation: 512 Days Won: 3 Joined: 05/11/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted October 18, 2016 7 hours ago, seeking the lost said: You ask very good questions. It is only a problem for those who do not accept the Word as it is in preference to the way they want it to be. What kind of answer is that??? Ezra said: "Why is this such an issue? So on the day of the Rapture, the dead in Christ are resurrected, and immediately thereafter, the living saints are transformed and raptured. There is no lag in the two phases of the Resurrection/Rapture." Both statements above (by Ezra and by seeking) shows how confused by spiritual blindness those on man's Pre-trib Rapture theory are. The 'only' time God's Word teaches the RESURRECTION is, is on the very LAST DAY of this world! That means that last day of this present world, which is also the END of the tribulation. There is NO resurrection of the saints prior to that. Yet the Pre-trib Rapture doctrine falsely teaches both the asleep (dead) saints are resurrected and the alive saints are gathered PRIOR to the tribulation! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OakWood Posted October 18, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 867 Topics Per Day: 0.24 Content Count: 7,331 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 2,860 Days Won: 31 Joined: 04/09/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/28/1964 Share Posted October 18, 2016 22 hours ago, Ezra said: Yes, there are many opinions regarding who the Restrainer is, but since the Bible makes it clear that only God Himself controls Satan, it is more than reasonable to conclude that the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit. There have been saints on earth since the time of Abel, and that was long before the Holy Spirit was poured out at Pentecost. So this argument is invalid. Please refer to Hebrews 11. All who refuse the mark will be beheaded, and since the Bible also makes it clear that the entire Church will not be martyred, those are the "Tribulation saints" (as distinct from the Church). Where did you hear that non-believers reign during the Millennium? And the Holy Spirit is removed only to allow Satan full control for 3 1/2 years. We should not make any further assumptions. This in itself is a false accusation, and Christians are not to bring false accusations against anyone, particularly genuine Christians. Neither Scofield (not Schofield) nor Darby can be justly called "false prophets", so it is the accuser of the brethren who would seek to label them as such. Before you go any further, purchase the Scofield Reference Bible (1909 to 1945) and show us what false teaching is found in his notes. Junk. I never said that non-believers will reign during the millennium. That's the whole point, but for the pre-Trib rapture to be true then non-believers will be reigning. Because non-believers WILL NOT reign under Christ then the pre-Trib rapture has to be false. Because according to you believers will have been raptured BEFORE the Tribulation (the only privileged believers throughout history to have done so), and there can be no new believers after that because the Holy Spirit has gone. So who exactly are these new believers that don't have the Holy Spirit? The pre-Trib is so full of contradictions it is ridiculous. It is a lie. Christians need to shake it off. It also requires there to be a third coming of Christ. It is a blasphemy. The impossibility, irrationality, and anti-scriptural position of the pre-Trib rapture has been pointed out to you time and again in logic that a child could understand, yet you still refuse to drop it. To believe in the pre-Trib rapture because your Church told you it is one thing, but to continue to believe in it after being shown the truth of scripture is another. The contradictions have been shown to you, yet you continue with your mental and verbal gymnastics to try and explain it and to imagine things in scripture that simply aren't there or to add to scripture things that aren't there. As for Schofield, his teachings are lies (the pre-Trib rapture being the prime example). I don't care what his Bible says - I'm talking about his teachings, not the scripture that he used and later twisted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OakWood Posted October 18, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 867 Topics Per Day: 0.24 Content Count: 7,331 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 2,860 Days Won: 31 Joined: 04/09/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/28/1964 Share Posted October 18, 2016 23 hours ago, Ezra said: Do you know why? The Rapture has nothing to do with the Tribulation. It is just that simple. However, because the Rapture is IMMINENT, and because the Tribulation is not for the Church, it should be clear that there is no need to labor this point. The Tribulation IS for the Church. Who do you think it is that antiChrist will be persecuting? The Buddhists? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeking the lost Posted October 18, 2016 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 496 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 209 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/15/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted October 18, 2016 13 hours ago, Salty said: Ezra said: "Why is this such an issue? So on the day of the Rapture, the dead in Christ are resurrected, and immediately thereafter, the living saints are transformed and raptured. There is no lag in the two phases of the Resurrection/Rapture." Both statements above (by Ezra and by seeking) shows how confused by spiritual blindness those on man's Pre-trib Rapture theory are. The 'only' time God's Word teaches the RESURRECTION is, is on the very LAST DAY of this world! That means that last day of this present world, which is also the END of the tribulation. There is NO resurrection of the saints prior to that. Yet the Pre-trib Rapture doctrine falsely teaches both the asleep (dead) saints are resurrected and the alive saints are gathered PRIOR to the tribulation! Hi salty I do believe you have confused what I have said about the resurrection-rapture as being a pre-trib position. It is my position that because the resurrection takes place at the end of the 1000 year that is the time of the rapture. To add a rapture before this is a dangerous thing to do. Rev. 22 18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. I believe that was Ezra's point as well. And trying to add a rapture to accommodate doctrine is never a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salty Posted October 18, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,665 Content Per Day: 0.46 Reputation: 512 Days Won: 3 Joined: 05/11/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted October 18, 2016 2 hours ago, seeking the lost said: Hi salty I do believe you have confused what I have said about the resurrection-rapture as being a pre-trib position. It is my position that because the resurrection takes place at the end of the 1000 year that is the time of the rapture. To add a rapture before this is a dangerous thing to do. Rev. 22 18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. I believe that was Ezra's point as well. And trying to add a rapture to accommodate doctrine is never a good idea. I wouldn't know about trying to add a rapture, since I do not follow Amillennialism, nor a Pre-trib Rapture which tries to place a rapture prior to the TRIBULATION. In Matt.24:29-31 Jesus revealed His 2nd coming to gather the saints AFTER the tribulation He was teaching in that chapter. That means after the tribulation by the coming Antichrist, and immediately prior to the 1,000 years Millennial reign of Rev.20. It is impossible for a gathering of the Church AFTER the 1,000 years of Rev.20, since that would mean the "first resurrection", being His elect He promised would reign with Him for the 1,000 years, would not even exist until after that 1,000 year period, and that would be a gross error of misrepresenting the Scriptures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angels4u Posted October 18, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 56 Topic Count: 1,664 Topics Per Day: 0.20 Content Count: 19,764 Content Per Day: 2.39 Reputation: 12,164 Days Won: 28 Joined: 08/22/2001 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 18, 2016 5 hours ago, Giller said: The one who restrains is not referring to the Holy Ghost , for the Holy Ghost of course was poured out at the day of Pentecost and will continue to be poured out even unto the second coming , and beyond , just carefully read the book of Joel , concerning this issue. Now yes all believers at the time of the rapture , will be caught up in the air to meet him there and go to heaven with him , thus obviously it will only be unbelievers that will go into the tribulation period , but what God will do is send his 2 witnesses which are presently in heaven , to earth , so that people can get saved , and evidence is , is that people will be saved. Christ's first coming to earth was when he came as a man , and died on the cross, and his second coming to earth , is when he actually comes to earth at his second coming , the rapture itself , is not a second coming to earth , but rather a coming to were he stops in the sky , and brings his believers home. Amen Gillis, people will still get saved during the great tribulation ,it will be difficult for them to survive and many shall die.. Rev 7:14 Praise from the Great Multitude …13Then one of the elders addressed me: “These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?”14“Sir, I answered, “you know.” So he replied,“These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15For this reason, ‘They are before the throne of God and serve Him day and night in His temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeking the lost Posted October 18, 2016 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 496 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 209 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/15/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted October 18, 2016 1 hour ago, Salty said: I wouldn't know about trying to add a rapture, since I do not follow Amillennialism, nor a Pre-trib Rapture which tries to place a rapture prior to the TRIBULATION. In Matt.24:29-31 Jesus revealed His 2nd coming to gather the saints AFTER the tribulation He was teaching in that chapter. That means after the tribulation by the coming Antichrist, and immediately prior to the 1,000 years Millennial reign of Rev.20. It is impossible for a gathering of the Church AFTER the 1,000 years of Rev.20, since that would mean the "first resurrection", being His elect He promised would reign with Him for the 1,000 years, would not even exist until after that 1,000 year period, and that would be a gross error of misrepresenting the Scriptures. Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. These are the resurrections in order. First is the resurrection of the tribulation martyrs. This is a closed set and non movable. That means the time of this resurrection is at the end of the seven years of tribulation. To move the time of this resurrection is adulterating the text. This is a closed set which means that only those who are mentioned are included in this resurrection. It is also an adulteration of the text to add to this closed set. Do not say all righteous are resurrected here. They are not. The church those who are alive and remain will be caught up right after the dead in Christ are raised. We will not proceed them. This is at the end of the 1000 years. This is not Amillennialism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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