Lots O Questions

[TQWorld]

Hi all, new here, obviously. Before I get into this, I'll bore you brefly about why I'm here.

I'm in my early 40s and looking for the answers that have been evading me for quite some time. I've researched, I've spoken to people....I'm not finding what I'm looking for. I've got beliefs in my head and in my heart that I am hoping so hard that someone, somewhere, will tell me I'm wrong and show me in a way that is meaningful and makes sense so that it sinks in and I can get over it and move on to where I need to be. I want so badly to be wrong and to be where part of me really thinks and really wants to be, but there are these blockades that are stopping me.

Please understand that I am not trolling, trying to cause trouble or begin a debate for the sake of arguing. I am genuinely looking for answers.

A few years ago, I began writing things down here and there about my thoughts. It first started out as just jotting down ideas like in an outline format, but then I kept adding to it and as I got older, decided to add additional comments to it so that I would later remember exactly what I meant by what I wrote. Ultimately, it ended up in more of an article form but I let it go because I feel it better clarifies what points I'm trying to make and explain better how I'm feeling/thinking. It has a strongly sarcastic tone, I'm sure, as is my nature. I would prefer we not focus on the way it was written and instead focus on the content of what is written. I know there are a lot of helpful and well-meaning folks out there who will tell me I need to pray, ask for forgivness, ask God this or that, but honestly, until I get my questions answered and make sense of things, I might as well be asking my fridge to bring me a piping hot pizza and set it on my desk. I say that not to be rude, but to emphasize where I am at, spiritually.

That said, here goes.

First of all, I’ll go over what I think I know to be true according to the Bible.

God creates man who is perfect; free of sin. Sin does not exist.

Satan, a fallen angel, convinces Eve to eat from the tree of knowledge – against God’s wishes.

Eve convinces Adam to eat of the fruit and both are in trouble when God shows up.

God creates a perfect man and woman. No sin. They do absolutely nothing wrong in the eyes of God. Then along comes the devil and convinces Eve to eat of the tree of knowledge and now they are in trouble. Ok, here is where my issues start to begin.

Tree of knowledge. Really? And this is there for what reason? Why in the world would this even have been created in the first place? What sense would it make to create stupid people and then put a tree of knowledge in their yard? Even if they weren’t ignorant, why would God even create this tree? And have it be that when they eat from it, they suddenly get smart? This not only sounds like fantasy (kiss the frog, turn into a prince) but it also makes absolutely no sense whatsoever for it being created in the first place.

All-knowing God. There is nothing He doesn’t see or doesn’t know. Did He not realize that they were going to *** mess *** up the master plan and eat from this ridiculous tree that should never have been created in the first place which bears fruit that will immediately raise the IQ level of the person eating it? Did He not give this a passing through?

Satan. And here’s where it all boils down from. Satan is an angel who *** messes *** up and gets tossed from Heaven. Satan then intentionally turns God’s new toys (people) against his wishes by having them break God’s rules. So why did God not kill Satan or simply make him not exist? Or better yet, why bother making him in the first place since God knew what was going to eventually happen? You can’t say he didn’t/couldn’t see into the future because we can see into the future in the Book of Revelations.

So…

• God created an angel who He knew would turn against him. But He did it anyway.
  
• God allowed said angel to live, knowing that he would corrupt the world. But He did it anyway.
  
• God punished said angel but allowed him to have power and influence over people that would turn them against him. But He did it anyway.
  
  Now, I’m supposed to have faith in someone who is either:
  1. A really, really poor decision-maker
     
  2. Someone who isn’t working with a full deck.
     
  3. A manipulator because he knew darn well how things were going to go and decided it was a good plan…make them miserable and have them come begging to Him
     

  So, if manipulator is the case, the plan the entire time was to…

  [*]Create an angel to act as the bad guy

  [*]Kick him out

  [*]Create a couple of perfect, innocent and unthinking people

  [*]Set them up for failure by placing a tree of knowledge which develops fruit on it that will suddenly make the person smart

  [*]Tell the people they aren’t allowed to eat from it

  [*]The bad guy will convince them to break the rules

  [*]Punish the people to live hard lives

  [*]Convince them it’s their own fault

  [*]Guilt them into accepting it

  [*]Let the bad guy corrupt the world

  [*]Have a standing offer to anyone willing to submit to Him that He’d make things better

  [*]Add in the catch that their lives would really get *** worst *** because of *** messing *** with them just to see how badly they want into Heaven. Call them trials and tribulations.

  [*]Promise them eternal life in a place that’s care-free and peachy-keen.

  Faith and prayer. What is faith and how are we supposed to have it? What are we supposed to have faith in? Are we supposed to just blindly accept the rules of a being that only very few have ever seen or spoken with directly which took place over 2,000 years ago and nobody has seen nor heard from since? Does praying actually do anything other than make those praying feel better and giving them a sense of hope?

  So let’s look at faith when someone is in the hospital, either injured or sick. Generally, there are two things that are going to happen: they are either going to get better or die. People say they will pray for the person and all should have faith…..faith in what? That they’ll get better? If they get better, then yay for God for listening and answering prayers. And if the person dies, well, it just wasn’t in God’s will that the person should live.

  So it’s it all falls back to God’s will. So, let’s start back at the beginning with the person in the hospital. God already knows if this person is going to get better or die. So why are we praying and what are we having faith in with this case? Are we praying to God to change his mind in the event that God's will is for this person to die (for the person to live/get better)? Well, it’s His will if the person dies, so changing His mind to letting the sick person live is going to mean changing His plan. And if He knew that He was going to end up changing His plan and letting the guy live, then He wouldn’t have made that initial choice for the person to die to begin with; therefore no change of mind would be needed. So, ultimately, the end result is whatever God had planned from the getgo and the prayers don't influence anything other than giving those who are praying some simblance of hope (which is nothing more than a wishful gamble). As for having faith, I’m not sure what to have faith in for this scenario. Faith that the person is going to get better and live? I’m told that’s wrong to do because it’s God’s will either way, so don’t have faith they will get better/live. So am I just to have faith that God is going to do what God wants? Well, that’s kind of a given, isn’t it? I mean, who’s going to stop Him?

  God used to perform all kinds of epic (seriously epic) stuff like parting the red sea, bushes on fire but not burning, smiting entire cities...VERY epic. But why is He not doing anything anymore? Some argue that He is, but where? When? what? with the modern age of technology where almost everyone has a camera/video recording on their phones and sites like YouTube, surely someone would have captured these events, miracles and workings and posted them for all the world to see....or did God simply just give up on us because we are too rotten? But if so, would He not have known how we would have ended up and wouldn't He have done it differently from the getgo?

  Do I believe in God? I believe I do, although I find myself questioning things more and more often. Regardless, I'm just not happy with the God that I think exists. Not much of it makes sense but I feel as if it should.

Edited July 9, 2012 by OneLight
Changed some of the language, but not the meaning.

[ayin jade]

Ok gonna reply piecemeal to this.

Tree of knowledge. Really? And this is there for what reason? Why in the world would this even have been created in the first place? What sense would it make to create stupid people and then put a tree of knowledge in their yard?

Genesis 2

9 And out of the ground the LORD God caused to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food. The tree of life also was in the middle of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Tree of knowledge of good and evil. Not just of knowledge.

it also makes absolutely no sense whatsoever for it being created in the first place.

Who says anything God does has to make sense to us?

All-knowing God. There is nothing He doesn’t see or doesn’t know. Did He not realize that they were going to screw up the master plan and eat from this ridiculous tree

First, a piece of advice. Ease up on the sarcasm or you will find it riles up folks and you are less likely to get sincere responses.

God is all knowing. The bible tells us Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world for our sins. As in, all of this was planned for before the world was even created.

Satan. And here’s where it all boils down from. Satan is an angel who *** messes *** up and gets tossed from Heaven. Satan then intentionally turns God’s new toys (people) against his wishes by having them break God’s rules.

Very hard to take you seriously when you call people Gods toys.

So why did God not kill Satan or simply make him not exist? Or better yet, why bother making him in the first place since God knew what was going to eventually happen? You can’t say he didn’t/couldn’t see into the future because we can see into the future in the Book of Revelations.

Book of Revelation. Not plural.

We are not told why He chose to do things this way. He does not have to give us an explanation. We are told to repent and turn to the Lord for salvation, to believe in Jesus.

The devil will go to his eternal fate soon enough.

[ayin jade]

Now, I’m supposed to have faith in someone who is either:

• A really, really poor decision-maker
  
• Someone who isn’t working with a full deck.
  
• A manipulator because he knew darn well how things were going to go and decided it was a good plan…make them miserable and have them come begging to Him
  

And with that, Im done. You have sincere questions, then you can ask them in a non blasphemous, non insulting way. Enjoy your time here.

[TQWorld]

Nice judgement from those who believe that you shouldn't judge.

So everyone that has issues believing should approach this how? Keep in mind that there is no such thing as blasphemy from someone in my position. Instead of educating and enlightening, you offer judgement and criticism. Typical.

Feel free to close/delete this thread and remove my account.

[Botz]

Hi all, new here, obviously. Before I get into this, I'll bore you brefly about why I'm here.

I'm in my early 40s and looking for the answers that have been evading me for quite some time. I've researched, I've spoken to people....I'm not finding what I'm looking for. I've got beliefs in my head and in my heart that I am hoping so hard that someone, somewhere, will tell me I'm wrong and show me in a way that is meaningful and makes sense so that it sinks in and I can get over it and move on to where I need to be. I want so badly to be wrong and to be where part of me really thinks and really wants to be, but there are these blockades that are stopping me.

Please understand that I am not trolling, trying to cause trouble or begin a debate for the sake of arguing. I am genuinely looking for answers.

A few years ago, I began writing things down here and there about my thoughts. It first started out as just jotting down ideas like in an outline format, but then I kept adding to it and as I got older, decided to add additional comments to it so that I would later remember exactly what I meant by what I wrote. Ultimately, it ended up in more of an article form but I let it go because I feel it better clarifies what points I'm trying to make and explain better how I'm feeling/thinking. It has a strongly sarcastic tone, I'm sure, as is my nature. I would prefer we not focus on the way it was written and instead focus on the content of what is written. I know there are a lot of helpful and well-meaning folks out there who will tell me I need to pray, ask for forgivness, ask God this or that, but honestly, until I get my questions answered and make sense of things, I might as well be asking my fridge to bring me a piping hot pizza and set it on my desk. I say that not to be rude, but to emphasize where I am at, spiritually.

That said, here goes.

First of all, I’ll go over what I think I know to be true according to the Bible.

God creates man who is perfect; free of sin. Sin does not exist.

Satan, a fallen angel, convinces Eve to eat from the tree of knowledge – against God’s wishes.

Eve convinces Adam to eat of the fruit and both are in trouble when God shows up.

God creates a perfect man and woman. No sin. They do absolutely nothing wrong in the eyes of God. Then along comes the devil and convinces Eve to eat of the tree of knowledge and now they are in trouble. Ok, here is where my issues start to begin.

Tree of knowledge. Really? And this is there for what reason? Why in the world would this even have been created in the first place? What sense would it make to create stupid people and then put a tree of knowledge in their yard? Even if they weren’t ignorant, why would God even create this tree? And have it be that when they eat from it, they suddenly get smart? This not only sounds like fantasy (kiss the frog, turn into a prince) but it also makes absolutely no sense whatsoever for it being created in the first place.

All-knowing God. There is nothing He doesn’t see or doesn’t know. Did He not realize that they were going to screw up the master plan and eat from this ridiculous tree that should never have been created in the first place which bears fruit that will immediately raise the IQ level of the person eating it? Did He not give this a passing through?

Satan. And here’s where it all boils down from. Satan is an angel who screws up and gets tossed from Heaven. Satan then intentionally turns God’s new toys (people) against his wishes by having them break God’s rules. So why did God not kill Satan or simply make him not exist? Or better yet, why bother making him in the first place since God knew what was going to eventually happen? You can’t say he didn’t/couldn’t see into the future because we can see into the future in the Book of Revelations.

So…

• God created an angel who He knew would turn against him. But He did it anyway.
  
• God allowed said angel to live, knowing that he would corrupt the world. But He did it anyway.
  
• God punished said angel but allowed him to have power and influence over people that would turn them against him. But He did it anyway.
  
  Now, I’m supposed to have faith in someone who is either:
  1. A really, really poor decision-maker
     
  2. Someone who isn’t working with a full deck.
     
  3. A manipulator because he knew darn well how things were going to go and decided it was a good plan…make them miserable and have them come begging to Him
     

  So, if manipulator is the case, the plan the entire time was to…

  [*]Create an angel to act as the bad guy

  [*]Kick him out

  [*]Create a couple of perfect, innocent and unthinking people

  [*]Set them up for failure by placing a tree of knowledge which develops fruit on it that will suddenly make the person smart

  [*]Tell the people they aren’t allowed to eat from it

  [*]The bad guy will convince them to break the rules

  [*]Punish the people to live sucky hard lives

  [*]Convince them it’s their own fault

  [*]Guilt them into accepting it

  [*]Let the bad guy corrupt the world

  [*]Have a standing offer to anyone willing to submit to Him that He’d make things better

  [*]Add in the catch that their lives would really get crappier because of screwing with them just to see how badly they want into Heaven. Call them trials and tribulations.

  [*]Promise them eternal life in a place that’s care-free and peachy-keen.

  Faith and prayer. What is faith and how are we supposed to have it? What are we supposed to have faith in? Are we supposed to just blindly accept the rules of a being that only very few have ever seen or spoken with directly which took place over 2,000 years ago and nobody has seen nor heard from since? Does praying actually do anything other than make those praying feel better and giving them a sense of hope?

  So let’s look at faith when someone is in the hospital, either injured or sick. Generally, there are two things that are going to happen: they are either going to get better or die. People say they will pray for the person and all should have faith…..faith in what? That they’ll get better? If they get better, then yay for God for listening and answering prayers. And if the person dies, well, it just wasn’t in God’s will that the person should live.

  So it’s it all falls back to God’s will. So, let’s start back at the beginning with the person in the hospital. God already knows if this person is going to get better or die. So why are we praying and what are we having faith in with this case? Are we praying to God to change his mind in the event that God's will is for this person to die (for the person to live/get better)? Well, it’s His will if the person dies, so changing His mind to letting the sick person live is going to mean changing His plan. And if He knew that He was going to end up changing His plan and letting the guy live, then He wouldn’t have made that initial choice for the person to die to begin with; therefore no change of mind would be needed. So, ultimately, the end result is whatever God had planned from the getgo and the prayers don't influence anything other than giving those who are praying some simblance of hope (which is nothing more than a wishful gamble). As for having faith, I’m not sure what to have faith in for this scenario. Faith that the person is going to get better and live? I’m told that’s wrong to do because it’s God’s will either way, so don’t have faith they will get better/live. So am I just to have faith that God is going to do what God wants? Well, that’s kind of a given, isn’t it? I mean, who’s going to stop Him?

  God used to perform all kinds of epic (seriously epic) stuff like parting the red sea, bushes on fire but not burning, smiting entire cities...VERY epic. But why is He not doing anything anymore? Some argue that He is, but where? When? what? with the modern age of technology where almost everyone has a camera/video recording on their phones and sites like YouTube, surely someone would have captured these events, miracles and workings and posted them for all the world to see....or did God simply just give up on us because we are too rotten? But if so, would He not have known how we would have ended up and wouldn't He have done it differently from the getgo?

  Do I believe in God? I believe I do, although I find myself questioning things more and more often. Regardless, I'm just not happy with the God that I think exists. Not much of it makes sense but I feel as if it should.

  Hi TQ,

  Good to see you on these Boards....you will get a multi-varied set of replies, so just hang in there and ride the waves.

  I can understand some of where you are coming from...the need to get beyond blind acceptance of things that don't seem to make sense etc.

  I don't have time to dip my oar in the water yet, but I am sure others have plenty to say which may or may not be helpful/pertinent.

  Enjoy. Kind regards. Botz

[OneLight]

It does seem that you are struggling with free will more than anything else. Why would God do this or that, make this or that? That will take more than one post to iron out, but I will try to get the ball rolling also.

God could of made everything perfect. That would of been the simplest and easiest way to do things, as we see it, but we do not think as He does. If God is looking for people to love Him, than just creating people who love Him would not work, because that would mean He would be creating a puppet or a programmed being. Love is a choice. Look at our lives. Are we programmed to love a certain person who all of a sudden pops into our life at some point? No, that does not happen. We choose to get to know someone, and when building a relationship with this person, our feelings change. We either choose to continue and create a deeper relationship, or decide the relationship is not going the way we like, and either remain friends or drop the relationship all together. This is how God wants us to seek Him, in a relationship. It is our choice to either build a deeper relationship, remain friends in a menial manner, or drop the relationship all together because it is not going the way we would like it to go, as in the case of Satan and 1/3 of the heavenly host. You see, without free will, there can be no real love. We can't make a puppet love or a computer love. It has to be a free willed choice.

You also allude to why the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. This is where it get a little stickier. Yes, God can see down through time and He does know all, so why even create such a tree? I believe that God knew that unless man understood the difference between good and evil, than man would not come to an understanding of who God was. Man did not know the difference between good and evil before he sinned, otherwise, man would not of sinned. Again, free will and choices. Why is this not right? As I stated above, God wants us to freely love Him, and to do this freely, we need something to compare Him with. If we did not know the difference, how could we compare and choose?

God does have a plan. It is just hard to see with no faith in Him, which is where you seem to be at this time. Gods plan is to give us a way out, if we so choose to accept it. Yes, God knew we would falter, because He did not make us perfect. There is only one perfect and that is God and He did not make us a God. He made us human, with failures and successes, all due to the choices we make. Knowing that we will fail from time to time, He made it possible to have a relationship with Him so He could assist us on the way, if we so chose to ask and accept His guidance. Through the OT, God gave us laws to follow, knowing we would not be able to follow them. Sounds like a trap, but in the long run, it is proven to not be so. God need to get through our think skulls that we can not live a perfect life, while all along many believed we could. So, to prove this to us, He set up 613 written laws for us to try and follow. We, over time, proved that we did not have the capacity to live a sinless life, following His rules. To understand this, remember that we now had the knowledge of Good and Evil present in our lives, so we felt the good and evil within us, where greed, pride, lust all battled for dominance in our hearts and mind, just to name a few.

When it became prevalent to use that we just could not make this work, God sent His Son, Jesus, to live a sinless life and become a sacrifice for our sins. Again, another choice we have to make. Forgiveness is something that God has for us, and the only way to be forgiven is to follow His plan. This is not manipulation, but a choice. God does not force us to accept His Son. We can try and stand before Him when we die and blame Him for us not accepting His forgiveness, but it all comes down to what we chose to do, not God.

As for healing. I look at it this way. In a relationship, communication is key, so prayer is the only means we have to communicate with God. Yes, He knows what we are going to say before we say it, but we need to speak the truth to Him for our sake and the building of our side of the relationship. When it comes to praying for the sick and dying, I realize that we are all going to die one day, some how. Yet, I do tell God what is in my heart, even if it is not His will. Jesus even did this when He prayed at the Garden of Gethsemane where we read in Matthew 26:39 "He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.” Jesus asked specifically that this cup be removed from Him, knowing that it was not the will of His Father. This was the humanity side of Jesus. Yet, He ended by saying "not as I will, but as You will." which is how I end my prayers also. I may have my own personal desires, but in the long run, I also know that He knows far better than I do as to what is the best way to do things. I surrender to His will above my own,by choice.

Yup, it all boils down to choices we make, our free will. As I said, God wanted us to freely love and follow Him. That is how real love works.

There is also one thing I realized a long time ago. With my finite mind, I will never understand an infinite God, so I gave up trying to understand everything I face and just have faith that He will guide me through the best way there is. Without faith, we have only ourselves, and Adam and Eve have already proven that we just don't make the right choices.

As for why people get upset at how you post? Think of it this way. If you were madly in love with someone and along comes another person saying demeaning statements about the person you love, would you not rear up against their statements? This is a Christian site where just about everyone here has that type of love toward God, even deeper then one can have for another human. You will get replies that match your disrespect, in their eyes. If you wish to have replies from everyone, you need to take in account your respect toward the One we love so deeply. Respect is a two way street.

I know I have not answered all your questions, but this is a start. Many more will come and fill in where I have not.

Shalom.

[nebula]

Tree of knowledge. Really? . . . What sense would it make to create stupid people and then put a tree of knowledge in their yard?

Hello, TQ.

There is an error in your question. The tree was called "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil," not the "the tree of knowledge."

[nebula]

Having made this amazing creation, and given the man a partner which he can only name with an expression that is essentially a sexually excited phrase (wo!), and met all his other needs,

Interplanner, I don't know what language Adam spoke, but I can guarentee it wasn't English!

In Hebrew, though, the word for "woman" is ishah.

[bornagain2011]

God is the writer of the book, he knew all that was to take place, he gave Adam and Even the gift of free will, to choose to love God or not, to choose to follow is rules or not. True love and obedience comes from free will. God knew they would make that choice, he knew we would all be sinners that needed Him. He created us because he wanted someone to love and to love Him and glorify Him, and in the end we will all be in eternal fellowship and love with Him! What an awesome loving God!

And yes, it hurts when someone makes fun of someone we are madly in love with. I love him more than anyone, even more than my children...He gave them to me!!! Amen!

Edited July 10, 2012 by bornagain2011

[mike2]

WOW!!

I can tell there's years of thought here!

Its going to take a while for you to wade through all your questions. They are all ligitimate questions and there are answers to all of them, but to get those answers in truth is going to require time and most importantly, a change in the way you are thinking.

Not that you have a "bad attitude" its just that you are thinking like most people that are unspiritual. From the sounds of it, you are aware that there is a spiritual component to your existance you just aren't sure of what it is. Keep plugging along and may I suggest meditating on 1Cor 2:10- 14

We are brought up in a world that thinks of course, the way that the world thinks. A world that tells us to basically look after ourselves, something that started with, you guessed it, Adam and Eve. They chose to make their own decision, as soon as God gave them that one rule, He gave them the option to chose Him or themselves (influenced by Satan) as the guide in their lives....and today you can see where our continued decision to chose ourselves (worldy influence) has led mankind. Incredible proof of what happens when we choose selfishness (sin) over the other centered love that is God.

Think about it... there are only the two options, the way of the world or the way of God. We have no control other than to chose one or the other.

Its important that God gives us the opportunity to chose, otherwise we would be like the gold digger that married for the money- its not sincere true love, its love that is brought on by the money and not as a response to the love that is given by the millionaire.

God lets us see evil, and He lets us see His love (check out the cross) ....

when we see that, its our choice to respond.

If God were to reveal himself to us in all his glory, like the money, his glory rather than his love would compel us to chose him. As it was, before the tree thing in the garden...what choice did Adam and Eve have to follow God or not?

it wasn't that they were stupid, not even ignorant (you have to have a choice you are unaware of to be ignorant). No before the tree rule Adam and Eve had NO choice but God. True love offers a choice to respond

Its all about other-centered love, try to look at it from that perspective.

mike2

by the way- sin started with Lucifer (Satan)....when he decided that he himself should be in charge (Ezekiel 28:13...)(Isiah 14:13...)