Perfection?

[larryt]

Hi Tess,

You really do ask some good questions.

So God is really looking for effort? Not accomplishment? Is He just looking at the hearts and seeing whether or not His child is attempting holiness (or sinlessness)..but He's not juding us based on whether or not we acheive it?I don't think God is looking for effort in the way we as people look at it. I think He looks at the heart and gives us grace to accomplish what He has put in it. We have no strength in ourselves. As a matter of fact we are to reckon ourselves dead. And alive in the spirit. I think it is how dead are we that God looks at. But concider these verses.

Lu 13:24  Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

2Ti 2:5  And if a man also strive for masteries, [yet] is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully.

I'm trying to wrap my brain around all this. I understand that we are called to holiness, I understand what we are to be set apart, that we are to crucify our flesh, take up our cross daily, walk in the Spirit...I understand all these things. I guess my questions are:

1. Is it the pursuit that God is looking for? Because doesn't He already know we are going to fail?If you mean stumble along the way I agree. In the end we are going to succeed. He is going to accomplish everything He promised. To conform us to the image of Jesus Christ. Is effort on our part something that is necessary? I think so.

Ge 32:26  And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.

2. When we fail (which we all will continue to do), is that where His grace comes in?I don't see grace as something that is only here when we fail. It is also everything that we need to succeed for we are aready backrupt. The reformation writers spoke of love, joy, peace(the fruit) as "graces" amoung other things.(John Bunyun, Grace Abounding to the Chief of Sinners)

2Co 9:8  And God [is] able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all [things], may abound to every good work:

3. Can we even live one day without sinning? Does God expect us to?I don't think it is so much trying to live a day without sin as trying to live every day with Him. Our Lord Jesus did nothing except what Father told Him to do. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin. Whatever we do in the flesh is sin and only that which is done by the leading of the Holy Spirit is acceptable to the Father.

1 Peter 4:1

[Guest Called]

Ok, can I ask a rather direct question now ? For those of you who believe that y'all can live a sin-free life....here's my question -

Are you ? and if not..... Why not ? If you believe that you can, why aren't you ? Please, no tap dance routine to skew the topic in an attempt to avoid the obvious....just answer the question as asked please

Thanks and God bless,

Bob

I think that is a great question...I am very interested in hearing people's thoughts on this!

[Guest Orthodox Christian]

My dear Tess! How I understand your struggle! But, with the help of God, I'll try to answer your questions. I hope my unworthy attempt will help you at least somehow.

God knows our infirmities and weakness. However, He calls us to perfection. How is this possible to reach perfection falling into sin even every minute? The merciful God helps us in that. He is the source of all good things, including our own perfection. But perfection does not happen in one instant. It is a process that takes many years. There are several steps of spiritual growth in God.

Remember what Christ Himself sayd: pray and fast.

What prayer does? It brings humility. And God loves a humble soul. Humility is the firs step of the way to perfection, and if you are quite proudful, value your will and wishes, your opinion and whole being, you do not posess humility. Humility is the base of all virtues and of all the gifts of God. And what is humility? It is to acknowledge your weakness and unworthiness. Like the Apostle said -- acknowledge your sins, for if you say that you are without sin, you are deceived. No one is without sin. Therefore we must be humble in order to even start the way to perfection.

Prayer does not happen without humility. We must ask God for help with tears. Where do tears come from? From repentence. What is repentence? Rejecting one's sins. Repentence and humility are tied together and are the beginning of the road to perfection. And this is the point when God sends His grace. God gives His grace to a humble soul to grow spiritually, His strength and instructions. But we always need to make the first step, to make some action to show Him that we are ready to accept His help, and then He makes us see how mighty He is and compassionate. We do not "earn" His help, though, because we are too weak to do anything good. But we have our free will, and this is what needed from us -- an action of will, forcing ourselves to something good. And as soon as you choose to force yourself to something good, God comes right away and makes the good deed for you. It might be a simple thing as keeping yourself from doing something sinful: forcing yourself to not look at something bad, or say, or do. Maybe you have a weak tongue and sin by words. Keep your mouth shot -- and that is a good deed. That is enough to show God that you are willing with all your might to follow His commandments. And then His help comes -- He keeps your mouth shot.

What is fasting for? Fasting restrains your body. When you restrain your body, the soul also restrains, for they are connected. It is easier to follow God's commandments when you fast, when your body is not busy absorbing the meal you just ate. Early Christians always fasted. Most common was to fast two days a week -- Wednesday and Friday, for commemoration of the days when Judas betrayd Christ and when our Lord was crucified. Some people always fasted, but we must not wear out our bodies, and should be wise in not putting too much burden to our bodies and souls. Because that even can cause harm and make all efforts worthless.

The next step to reach perfection is to know your own soul. We do not see many of our sins, and we don't see the nature of our souls. That is also a virtue, and it should be asked for from God. All good things come from God, and we cannot do anything, even believe in Him without His help. But we must ack of this help.

Another basic virtue that will start the spiritual ascention is fear of God. But it is not like fear of terrorists, but rather like a fear to offend the loved One. He loves us dearly, and He wants us to be with Him, but we are infirm and distrustful, and therefore He helps us follow His commandments, among which is the commandments of perfection and love of God and our fellow men.

Humility, repentence, fear of God, prayer and other virtues are not aquired without the help of God. The sign of that you are being helped by God is this: peace enters your soul and joy. Everything becomes easy and things become clear to you: your own sinfulness, what is good and what is bad, how to act here and there, what to say. But better not to say anything at all. Silence is like fasting -- you restrain your body and therefore preserve peacefulness and undistructed mind.

When we fall, we must not despair thinking that God is cruel and will not forgive us. He died for us on the Cross, will He not forgive a repentent soul? Will He not run to His prodigal son and before he even says a word fall on his neck and kiss him? God hears every sigh, sees every tear of repentence, and these are dear to His heart. As soon as we realize that we did something wrong and turn to Him, He meets us with His grace and gifts. Truly it is said that he who makes himself lowly will be raised and he who raises himself will be lowered. Thus we must always be low in spirit and think that we do not deserve God's mercy. And to such humble soul God will give much of His peace and joy, and love for fellow men and enimies, and she will be compassionate for the whole creation.

Nothing happens without the help of God, but we must ask of that help, and willfully try to follow the commandments. And then God's grace will move your soul and help you. This is called Synergy, Greek word for "co-working". God does not burst into the soul and change her nature against her will. The soul must show God that she wills to be changed, with starting to do good. And then He softly enters the soul and she forgets the whole world being before the Creator Himself. And nobody can earn God's favor. We are already in His favor, and we are the dearest creatures of all, even above Angels, because we are made in His image. But in order to be worthy of be called images of our Lord, we must be perfect, like He is. And thus fulfill our goal -- be in His likeness.

I hope this will help you.

Edited October 16, 2004 by Orthodox Christian

[Matthitjah]

Saint's,

I want to sing a song.

Excuse me while I tune up my Guitar? Bum, brum, bum, brum, da, don, da don, brumm, brumm!

Okay now I'm slipping on my Blonde wig (My blonde hair is turning gray LOL!) So I got on my flip flops and cutoffs tye dye shirt. Long blonde wig.

La la la la. Voice is loose.

Here we go;

There's tarnish on my golden rule.

And I want to jump from this ship of fools.

Show me a place where hope is young and a people who are not afraid of Love.

This world has nothing for me and this world has everything.

All that I could want and nothing that I need!

This world is making me drunk on the Spirit's of fear.

So when you say,"Who will go?" I am no where near.

Cause this world has nothing for me and this world has everything.

All that I could want and nothing that I need.

But the least of these look like criminals to me. So I leave Christ on the Street!

This world has held my hand and has led me into intolerance!

So now I'm breaking up, Now I'm waking up, I'm making up for lost time.

This world has nothing for me and this world has everything.

All that I could want and nothing that I need.

This world has nothing for me and this world has everything.

All that I could want and nothing that I need!

Peace,

Dave

[Matthitjah]

Larry,

Dave,

I agree with what you say here, all this is true, I just see a little more.

I do agree you see a little more. God Bless you brother. :il:

I see it this way;

Hab

[eric]

Just a little thought that popped into my mind after reading thru this thread.

If it were possible for a person to become perfect and sinless, wouldn't that make Jesus redundant and prayer a worthless excercise? I've always regarded repentance an ongoing and daily requirement. To me, at least, there is no way we can cut ourselves out and be apart from the carnal world as long as we are living in the world. I know the word say we are in the world but not of the world. We wont get our glorified bodies until we leave this world and called into His prescence after we leave our earthly bodies here on earth, because our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. Oh yes we will be holy alright as He is holy, when we are gathered around Him on the great white throne.

That's the way I see it anyway,,

bless all saints,

eric.

[larryt]

Larry,

Dave,

I agree with what you say here, all this is true, I just see a little more.

I do agree you see a little more. God Bless you brother. :il:

I see it this way;

Hab 2:4

Behold, his soul which is proud is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

The Just shall live by Faith in every Word of God.

Does that mean we will not be tempted? How shall we overcome?

Re 12:11

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto death.

Will we stumble? Oh' my yes. :il:

Look at this;

Mt 5:29

And if your right eye causes you to offend, pluck it out, and cast it from you: for it is better for you that one of your members should perish, and not that your whole body should be cast into hell.

My eye has offended me on many occasions. :x:

Yet I haven't thrust it out with a spoon. To achieve sinlessness I would thus have to remove it. Either that? Or by a washing of the regeneration in Christ's Blood. Thank God for Grace. Thank God for His Word. Which I live by in Faith. Otherwise I would be in big trouble and would already be limbless. As well I would needs be to cast off my neighbor. Who in every circumstance of our meeting has caused my ear to hear sinful things. I should now have stabbed my ear drum with a pencil and be quite deaf. Ah' But if I hear it and apply the Blood and overcome by my testimony? HMMM?

Thanks be to God I live under His Blood.

Quote Derek Webb

My life looks good I do confess. You can ask anyone. Just don't ask my real good friends . They will lie to you. Worse they will tell the Truth. There are things you would not believe that travel into my mind. I swear I try and capture them and always set them free. Seems bad things comfort me. Good Lord I'm crooked deep down. Everyone is crooked deep down. I'm crooked deep down, everyone is crooked deep down. There was this girl she was made for me. She stood me up our Wedding day. And now that girl runs around on me she's drunk all the time. You see I died to make her mine. Good Lord she's crooked deep down. Everyone is crooked deep down. I'm not water, I'm not wine. You could say I'm just here for the party. With one thing on my mind. Squeezing me and my camel thru the needles eye. Good Lord I'm crooked deep down. Everyone is crooked deep down.

Peace,

Dave

Dear brother Dave,

Thank you so much for the opportunity to discuss this. You are helping me think this through and meditate on the Word more. Let me start at the bottom.

Quote Derek Webb

My life looks good I do confess. You can ask anyone. Just don't ask my real good friends . They will lie to you. Worse they will tell the Truth. There are things you would not believe that travel into my mind. I swear I try and capture them and always set them free. Seems bad things comfort me. Good Lord I'm crooked deep down. Everyone is crooked deep down. I'm crooked deep down, everyone is crooked deep down. There was this girl she was made for me. She stood me up our Wedding day. And now that girl runs around on me she's drunk all the time. You see I died to make her mine. Good Lord she's crooked deep down. Everyone is crooked deep down. I'm not water, I'm not wine. You could say I'm just here for the party. With one thing on my mind. Squeezing me and my camel thru the needles eye. Good Lord I'm crooked deep down. Everyone is crooked deep down.

I think I really like this guy. Hadn't heard of him as of yet.

Ro 7:18  For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,)dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.

How well we should all realize this. I can identify with Webb a lot.

Paul goes on from here and starts to show how the new life is SUPPOSED to work, continuing into ch. 8 where the contrast between the flesh and the spirit is differentiated.

Rom. 7:19  For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20  Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21  I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22  For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23  But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24  O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

8:1

[BobTriez]

Ok, can I ask a rather direct question now ?

[Guest LMKloft]

In my experience, sin controlled me UNTIL I admitted my sinfullness to God and admitted I needed His Son to save me from my sinfullness. I imagined myself playing a movie of my life of all the times I was sinful, hurtful, hateful, and downright unloving. I imagined all the times I insisted on doing things I knew were wrong. I imagined all the times I turned my back on someone who needed my help. I imagined all the times I did or said something that caused pain to someone else or caused someone else to sin. I imagined myself laying all these sins at the foot of Jesus' cross and admitting to Him I needed His help to learn how to have the selfless type of love He had that made Him remain on the cross rather than using His awesome power to save Himself. When I admitted my sins and admitted my need for His help, I felt cleansed and renewed and full of hope. Jesus was in control of my life now, not sin. I felt God's grace wash over me, giving me strength to withstand temptation against re-doing the sinful things I had laid at the foot of Jesus' cross. I dug into God's Holy Word for help in maintaining the holy feeling I had. Reading the Bible helped me to have spiritual "eyes to see and ears to hear" when the Holy Spirit convicted me of sinfullness and wrongdoing. By reading God's Holy Words to me, I learned what God expected of me as a follower of Jeus. I knew I could never be as "perfect" as Jesus, but by being grateful for Jesus' help, I wanted to learn what I could do to TRY to be more like Him. My gratefullness for Jesus' help, coupled with my increasing knowledge of God's Words and my willingness to listen to the guidance of the Holy Spirit has helped me to be a better person. I want to tell the world about Jesus, but I also want the world to see, by my actions, that I have turned from my sinful ways and am willing to try to be more Christlike. I have found that people "watch" every move I make. They learn more about the type of person I am now by seeing how I act and re-act to situations. When they catch me acting in a loving, selfless, Christlike manner, they want to know why/how I do what I do. This gives me an opportunity to tell them what Jesus has done for me and how His help and the help of the Holy Spirit keep me on the "straight and narrow path". Thanks for letting me share. Lynn from Iowa

[larryt]

Ok, can I ask a rather direct question now ?  For those of you who believe that y'all can live a sin-free life....here's my question -

Are you ? and if not..... Why not ?  If you believe that you can, why aren't you ?  Please, no tap dance routine to skew the topic in an attempt to avoid the obvious....just answer the question as asked please

Thanks and God bless,

Bob

* Bump *

Every time this topic ( sinless perfection ) is brought up, I've ask this same question ( in quote box above ) and I have YET to have anyone answer me. I find it VERY peculiar as to why that would be Many will be the first to jump in and say "yes we can" and "yes we must" but no one will commit to saying "yes, I now live a perfect and sinless life".

Forgive my cynicism, but I find the lack of positive responses ( not to mention lack of Biblical support! ) quite conclusive in support of the fact that it is un Biblical to claim we can/must live a sin free life.

So.....any takers yet ? :whistle:

P.S. This being a "black and white" issue ( either you sin or you don't ) - a simple "yes" or "no" response will sufice

Hi Bob,

It has been said if we ask a question we will undoubtedly get the answer to the question we ask. You have gotten the answer to your question.

For those of you who believe that y'all can live a sin-free life....here's my question -

Are you ? and if not..... Why not ?  If you believe that you can, why aren't you ?

I am really trying NOT to "tap-dance" around your question. I don't believe we can live a "sin-free" life.

1Jo 1:8