De-Evolution of Culture

[gdemoss]

Can anyone determine what the living arrangements for the one spoken of in 1 Cor 7 and his virgin that he was behaving himself unseemly toward might have been? Sounds like marriage was the answer to avoid acting in an ungodly manner toward her outside of marriage. If living conditions prohibited them from being 'together' what would be the need for Paul's advice? I'm just not sure about this one.

Gary

Perhaps we should look at the audience Paul was writing too. Arranged marriages were not uncommon. People knew at a pretty early age who their parents chose for them to marry. And we do know that when people have feelings for each other it arouses certain passions. Perhaps this was to avoid any inappropriateness?

Your thoughts? Or anyone else’s take on this?

Where does the bible explain this method of interpretation? The bible does not detail the culture of the time and then tell us to divorce the biblical principle from that which is perceived to be cultural only. For this cause Christians have done away with the holy kiss which is commanded no less than seven times by two different apostles.

Your thread about the De-evolution of culture is perfect to describe what modern day bible thumping soul winning Christians have done to both the gospel message and sensitivity to sin by what is actually called sin making a mistake in our day. It is no wonder people laugh off Christians who try to tell them that the bible is the inerrant inspired word of God.....well that is unless of course you know the culture of the day....then well we can, if we don't like something, call it cultural and rip that page out.

Jesus is coming back. It isn't because he is happy with us.

Gary

Sorry Gary if I offended you. It was simply an opinion on what you asked. A suggestion thus the question: "Perhaps this was to avoid any inappropriateness?" What would be your take on the passage you mentioned?

As I said in PM, you have not offended me. It is how you perceive my words to have been said, I believe, that leads you to believe I am offended. I am not even offended by what the church has become, just saddened, because I know what it means about our eventual end. The truth is that the closer that one is conformed to the image of Christ the more one becomes sensitive to sin. The more one becomes sensitive to sin the clearer they see the sin in their own life and the lives of others. They have an obligation to put the sin in their own life away first but then to love their neighbor as themselves and humbly gird themselves with truth and work to wash their brothers feet trying not to get kicked in the face for doing it. The Christian life is hard. Especially in a day like ours that Paul calls perilous times.

I brought up the scripture that I did because it stands out to me to be suggesting that the virgin and the man are living together and that is why he is having difficulty not behaving himself inappropriately toward her and Paul in essence suggests marriage in such a case. I read and re-read the passage a few times and did not come to any kind of a dogmatic conclusion by no means. I am with you that sex outside or before marriage is sin. I do not agree that all living together under the same roof for people who may or may not eventually get married is sin. We should understand that there are certain absolutes concerning sin such as homosexuality is always sin but other things such as living arrangements of people who are the opposite sex but not married, even if they eventually intend on marrying, is not one of those absolutes we can nail down.

One has to go into all kinds of logistics and definitions to espouse such a position. An absolutist would deny a young lady from living in his home whose parents have thrown her out into the streets because his own son intends on marrying the girl some day. The dangers of legalism. In many cases we simply cannot label something as 'sin' simply because it can become sin. The second greatest commandment in the law is to love your neighbor as yourself and was used to establish all the law and the prophets along with the first greatest commandment. The key word is 'love'. Love is defined for us biblically as we do not have to second guess what it looks like. It probably has the longest and most precise definition of any single word in the bible as the bible defines words. Sin is defined by lack of 'love' for God or others when you think about the biblical explanations.

Out of time, not out of words. Great topic. Your not offending me brother.

Gary

[GoldenEagle]

Sorry Gary if I offended you. It was simply an opinion on what you asked. A suggestion thus the question: "Perhaps this was to avoid any inappropriateness?" What would be your take on the passage you mentioned?

As I said in PM, you have not offended me.

Good. Just trying to follow Rom. 12:18 even though I’ll be the first to admit I don’t always succeed. But I have faith God isn’t done with me yet.

Rom. 12:18

If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men.

I brought up the scripture that I did because it stands out to me to be suggesting that the virgin and the man are living together and that is why he is having difficulty not behaving himself inappropriately toward her and Paul in essence suggests marriage in such a case. I read and re-read the passage a few times and did not come to any kind of a dogmatic conclusion by no means. I am with you that sex outside or before marriage is sin. I do not agree that all living together under the same roof for people who may or may not eventually get married is sin. We should understand that there are certain absolutes concerning sin such as homosexuality is always sin but other things such as living arrangements of people who are the opposite sex but not married, even if they eventually intend on marrying, is not one of those absolutes we can nail down.

Perhaps we cannot nail down that living together before marriage is sin. However, we can nail down that living together as husband and wife (and becoming one flesh physically) is sin. Is that what you’re saying?

One has to go into all kinds of logistics and definitions to espouse such a position. An absolutist would deny a young lady from living in his home whose parents have thrown her out into the streets because his own son intends on marrying the girl some day. The dangers of legalism. In many cases we simply cannot label something as 'sin' simply because it can become sin. The second greatest commandment in the law is to love your neighbor as yourself and was used to establish all the law and the prophets along with the first greatest commandment. The key word is 'love'. Love is defined for us biblically as we do not have to second guess what it looks like. It probably has the longest and most precise definition of any single word in the bible as the bible defines words. Sin is defined by lack of 'love' for God or others when you think about the biblical explanations.

Out of time, not out of words. Great topic. Your not offending me brother.

Gary

Thanks for the encouragement underlined.

I agree with your statement about legalism in bold. I agree we're to love God and love people. (Matt. 22:36-40) What I was trying to say was that living together in a sexual relationship before marriage is sin. Perhaps this wasn’t clear… My cammunicashion skills need some refining. Lol.

[gdemoss]

Sorry Gary if I offended you. It was simply an opinion on what you asked. A suggestion thus the question: "Perhaps this was to avoid any inappropriateness?" What would be your take on the passage you mentioned?

As I said in PM, you have not offended me.

Good. Just trying to follow Rom. 12:18 even though I’ll be the first to admit I don’t always succeed. But I have faith God isn’t done with me yet.

Rom. 12:18

If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men.

I brought up the scripture that I did because it stands out to me to be suggesting that the virgin and the man are living together and that is why he is having difficulty not behaving himself inappropriately toward her and Paul in essence suggests marriage in such a case. I read and re-read the passage a few times and did not come to any kind of a dogmatic conclusion by no means. I am with you that sex outside or before marriage is sin. I do not agree that all living together under the same roof for people who may or may not eventually get married is sin. We should understand that there are certain absolutes concerning sin such as homosexuality is always sin but other things such as living arrangements of people who are the opposite sex but not married, even if they eventually intend on marrying, is not one of those absolutes we can nail down.

Perhaps we cannot nail down that living together before marriage is sin. However, we can nail down that living together as husband and wife (and becoming one flesh physically) is sin. Is that what you’re saying?

One has to go into all kinds of logistics and definitions to espouse such a position. An absolutist would deny a young lady from living in his home whose parents have thrown her out into the streets because his own son intends on marrying the girl some day. The dangers of legalism. In many cases we simply cannot label something as 'sin' simply because it can become sin. The second greatest commandment in the law is to love your neighbor as yourself and was used to establish all the law and the prophets along with the first greatest commandment. The key word is 'love'. Love is defined for us biblically as we do not have to second guess what it looks like. It probably has the longest and most precise definition of any single word in the bible as the bible defines words. Sin is defined by lack of 'love' for God or others when you think about the biblical explanations.

Out of time, not out of words. Great topic. Your not offending me brother.

Gary

Thanks for the encouragement underlined.

I agree with your statement about legalism in bold. I agree we're to love God and love people. (Matt. 22:36-40) What I was trying to say was that living together in a sexual relationship before marriage is sin. Perhaps this wasn’t clear… My cammunicashion skills need some refining. Lol.

Jon, I think the trouble we get into is by defining things using the wrong criteria. We get hoodwinked into trying to define the sin by the action committed when in all honesty we need to judge by love for God then neighbor in that which we define as sin. I say that because that is what the law and prophets were established upon. As I said previously, some things are absolutely wrong because they are simply a lie, such as homosexuality where one turns the truth of God into a lie. But let us consider Isaac for a moment.

Gen 24:67 And Isaac brought her into his mother Sarah's tent, and took Rebekah, and she became his wife; and he loved her: and Isaac was comforted after his mother's [death].

There was no sin here. Consider closely how the marriage of Isaac and Rebekah was defined in the verse. Rebekah was simply a woman who Abrahams servant went and retrieved who willingly chose to come and be Isaac's wife and there is no indication of a wedding ceremony or papers signed down at the courthouse. Isaac took Rebekah....today's modern traditions of men and laws governing every aspect of life does not reflect the truth of what it means to be married. Marriage is a covenant relationship between a man and a woman that is consummated via the man taking his wife, to use Gods choice of words.

I say this open up the question of 'when' does a marriage really begin in Gods eyes? And how does that affect the topic at hand?

We need to try not to get sucked into allowing man to define that which God has already defined in his word.

Gary

[GoldenEagle]

Jon, I think the trouble we get into is by defining things using the wrong criteria. We get hoodwinked into trying to define the sin by the action committed when in all honesty we need to judge by love for God then neighbor in that which we define as sin. I say that because that is what the law and prophets were established upon. As I said previously, some things are absolutely wrong because they are simply a lie, such as homosexuality where one turns the truth of God into a lie. But let us consider Isaac for a moment.

Gen 24:67 And Isaac brought her into his mother Sarah's tent, and took Rebekah, and she became his wife; and he loved her: and Isaac was comforted after his mother's [death].

There was no sin here. Consider closely how the marriage of Isaac and Rebekah was defined in the verse. Rebekah was simply a woman who Abrahams servant went and retrieved who willingly chose to come and be Isaac's wife and there is no indication of a wedding ceremony or papers signed down at the courthouse. Isaac took Rebekah....today's modern traditions of men and laws governing every aspect of life does not reflect the truth of what it means to be married. Marriage is a covenant relationship between a man and a woman that is consummated via the man taking his wife, to use Gods choice of words.

I say this open up the question of 'when' does a marriage really begin in Gods eyes? And how does that affect the topic at hand?

We need to try not to get sucked into allowing man to define that which God has already defined in his word.

Gary

So I guess I'm confused. Are you implying that all two people have to do is consume the relationship (sex) in order to be married before God?

Re: Truth regarding Isaac and Rebekah... Let's look at context shall we? I'm curious in particular what you think of verse 58? What did Rebekah say? Was there not a choice and an agreement?

Gen. 24:42-66

42 “And this day I came to the well and said, ‘O Lord God of my master Abraham, if You will now prosper the way in which I go, 43 behold, I stand by the well of water; and it shall come to pass that when the virgin comes out to draw water, and I say to her, “Please give me a little water from your pitcher to drink,” 44 and she says to me, “Drink, and I will draw for your camels also,”—let her be the woman whom the Lord has appointed for my master’s son.’

45 “But before I had finished speaking in my heart, there was Rebekah, coming out with her pitcher on her shoulder; and she went down to the well and drew water. And I said to her, ‘Please let me drink.’ 46 And she made haste and let her pitcher down from her shoulder, and said, ‘Drink, and I will give your camels a drink also.’ So I drank, and she gave the camels a drink also. 47 Then I asked her, and said, ‘Whose daughter are you?’ And she said, ‘The daughter of Bethuel, Nahor’s son, whom Milcah bore to him.’ So I put the nose ring on her nose and the bracelets on her wrists. 48 And I bowed my head and worshiped the Lord, and blessed the Lord God of my master Abraham, who had led me in the way of truth to take the daughter of my master’s brother for his son. 49 Now if you will deal kindly and truly with my master, tell me. And if not, tell me, that I may turn to the right hand or to the left.”

50 Then Laban and Bethuel answered and said, “The thing comes from the Lord; we cannot speak to you either bad or good.

51 Here is Rebekah before you; take her and go, and let her be your master’s son’s wife, as the Lord has spoken.”

52 And it came to pass, when Abraham’s servant heard their words, that he worshiped the Lord, bowing himself to the earth.

53 Then the servant brought out jewelry of silver, jewelry of gold, and clothing, and gave them to Rebekah. He also gave precious things to her brother and to her mother.

54 And he and the men who were with him ate and drank and stayed all night. Then they arose in the morning, and he said, “Send me away to my master.”

55 But her brother and her mother said, “Let the young woman stay with us a few days, at least ten; after that she may go.”

56 And he said to them, “Do not hinder me, since the Lord has prospered my way; send me away so that I may go to my master.”

57 So they said, “We will call the young woman and ask her personally.”

58 Then they called Rebekah and said to her, “Will you go with this man?”

And she said, “I will go.”

⁵⁹ So they sent away Rebekah their sister and her nurse, and Abraham’s servant and his men. ⁶⁰ And they blessed Rebekah and said to her:

“Our sister,

may

you

become

The mother of

thousands of ten thousands;

And may your descendants possess

The gates of those who hate them.”

⁶¹ Then Rebekah and her maids arose, and they rode on the camels and followed the man. So the servant took Rebekah and departed.

⁶² Now Isaac came from the way of Beer Lahai Roi, for he dwelt in the South. ⁶³ And Isaac went out to meditate in the field in the evening; and he lifted his eyes and looked, and there, the camels were coming. ⁶⁴ Then Rebekah lifted her eyes, and when she saw Isaac she dismounted from her camel; ⁶⁵ for she had said to the servant, “Who is this man walking in the field to meet us?”

The servant said, “It is my master.” So she took a veil and covered herself.

⁶⁶ And the servant told Isaac all the things that he had done. ⁶⁷ Then Isaac brought her into his mother Sarah’s tent; and he took Rebekah and she became his wife, and he loved her. So Isaac was comforted after his mother’s death.

[gdemoss]

Jon, I think the trouble we get into is by defining things using the wrong criteria. We get hoodwinked into trying to define the sin by the action committed when in all honesty we need to judge by love for God then neighbor in that which we define as sin. I say that because that is what the law and prophets were established upon. As I said previously, some things are absolutely wrong because they are simply a lie, such as homosexuality where one turns the truth of God into a lie. But let us consider Isaac for a moment.

Gen 24:67 And Isaac brought her into his mother Sarah's tent, and took Rebekah, and she became his wife; and he loved her: and Isaac was comforted after his mother's [death].

There was no sin here. Consider closely how the marriage of Isaac and Rebekah was defined in the verse. Rebekah was simply a woman who Abrahams servant went and retrieved who willingly chose to come and be Isaac's wife and there is no indication of a wedding ceremony or papers signed down at the courthouse. Isaac took Rebekah....today's modern traditions of men and laws governing every aspect of life does not reflect the truth of what it means to be married. Marriage is a covenant relationship between a man and a woman that is consummated via the man taking his wife, to use Gods choice of words.

I say this open up the question of 'when' does a marriage really begin in Gods eyes? And how does that affect the topic at hand?

We need to try not to get sucked into allowing man to define that which God has already defined in his word.

Gary

So I guess I'm confused. Are you implying that all two people have to do is consume the relationship (sex) in order to be married before God?

Re: Truth regarding Isaac and Rebekah... Let's look at context shall we? I'm curious in particular what you think of verse 58? What did Rebekah say? Was there not a choice and an agreement?

Gen. 24:42-66

42 “And this day I came to the well and said, ‘O Lord God of my master Abraham, if You will now prosper the way in which I go, 43 behold, I stand by the well of water; and it shall come to pass that when the virgin comes out to draw water, and I say to her, “Please give me a little water from your pitcher to drink,” 44 and she says to me, “Drink, and I will draw for your camels also,”—let her be the woman whom the Lord has appointed for my master’s son.’

45 “But before I had finished speaking in my heart, there was Rebekah, coming out with her pitcher on her shoulder; and she went down to the well and drew water. And I said to her, ‘Please let me drink.’ 46 And she made haste and let her pitcher down from her shoulder, and said, ‘Drink, and I will give your camels a drink also.’ So I drank, and she gave the camels a drink also. 47 Then I asked her, and said, ‘Whose daughter are you?’ And she said, ‘The daughter of Bethuel, Nahor’s son, whom Milcah bore to him.’ So I put the nose ring on her nose and the bracelets on her wrists. 48 And I bowed my head and worshiped the Lord, and blessed the Lord God of my master Abraham, who had led me in the way of truth to take the daughter of my master’s brother for his son. 49 Now if you will deal kindly and truly with my master, tell me. And if not, tell me, that I may turn to the right hand or to the left.”

50 Then Laban and Bethuel answered and said, “The thing comes from the Lord; we cannot speak to you either bad or good.

51 Here is Rebekah before you; take her and go, and let her be your master’s son’s wife, as the Lord has spoken.”

52 And it came to pass, when Abraham’s servant heard their words, that he worshiped the Lord, bowing himself to the earth.

53 Then the servant brought out jewelry of silver, jewelry of gold, and clothing, and gave them to Rebekah. He also gave precious things to her brother and to her mother.

54 And he and the men who were with him ate and drank and stayed all night. Then they arose in the morning, and he said, “Send me away to my master.”

55 But her brother and her mother said, “Let the young woman stay with us a few days, at least ten; after that she may go.”

56 And he said to them, “Do not hinder me, since the Lord has prospered my way; send me away so that I may go to my master.”

57 So they said, “We will call the young woman and ask her personally.”

58 Then they called Rebekah and said to her, “Will you go with this man?”

And she said, “I will go.”

⁵⁹ So they sent away Rebekah their sister and her nurse, and Abraham’s servant and his men. ⁶⁰ And they blessed Rebekah and said to her:

“Our sister,

may

you

become

The mother of

thousands of ten thousands;

And may your descendants possess

The gates of those who hate them.”

⁶¹ Then Rebekah and her maids arose, and they rode on the camels and followed the man. So the servant took Rebekah and departed.

⁶² Now Isaac came from the way of Beer Lahai Roi, for he dwelt in the South. ⁶³ And Isaac went out to meditate in the field in the evening; and he lifted his eyes and looked, and there, the camels were coming. ⁶⁴ Then Rebekah lifted her eyes, and when she saw Isaac she dismounted from her camel; ⁶⁵ for she had said to the servant, “Who is this man walking in the field to meet us?”

The servant said, “It is my master.” So she took a veil and covered herself.

⁶⁶ And the servant told Isaac all the things that he had done. ⁶⁷ Then Isaac brought her into his mother Sarah’s tent; and he took Rebekah and she became his wife, and he loved her. So Isaac was comforted after his mother’s death.

I agree, there was a choice and an agreement. I believe that a marriage is a covenant relationship between a man and a woman that is intended to last for life that is consummated via physical union. I see no other criteria necessary in the eyes of God for a marriage to be valid.

Gary

[GoldenEagle]

I agree, there was a choice and an agreement. I believe that a marriage is a covenant relationship between a man and a woman that is intended to last for life that is consummated via physical union. I see no other criteria necessary in the eyes of God for a marriage to be valid.

Gary

Interesting...

Re: Rebekah and Isaac (Gen. 24:67 or in context Gen. 22-:1-68) – In this passage in context we see God was involved, that Isaac’s Dad (Abraham) was involved, Abraham’s servant, Rebekah’s parents and family’s blessings (witnesses), Rebekah herself had to agree to the marriage. Would you agree?

From this story we can tell there was Abraham’s instruction to his trusted servant. (1-4)

Abraham’s servant sought God’s favor and direction. (vs. 14)

We can also tell that Rebekah’s parents blessed the marriage as witnesses before God. (vs. 50 and 51)

We can also tell her family asked Rebekah if she would go with Abraham’s servant. (vs. 58)

The result was Isaac and Rebekah were married as Rebekah became Isaac’s wife. (66-67)

[gdemoss]

I agree, there was a choice and an agreement. I believe that a marriage is a covenant relationship between a man and a woman that is intended to last for life that is consummated via physical union. I see no other criteria necessary in the eyes of God for a marriage to be valid.

Gary

Interesting...

Re: Rebekah and Isaac (Gen. 24:67 or in context Gen. 22-:1-68) – In this passage in context we see God was involved, that Isaac’s Dad (Abraham) was involved, Abraham’s servant, Rebekah’s parents and family’s blessings (witnesses), Rebekah herself had to agree to the marriage. Would you agree?

From this story we can tell there was Abraham’s instruction to his trusted servant. (1-4)

Abraham’s servant sought God’s favor and direction. (vs. 14)

We can also tell that Rebekah’s parents blessed the marriage as witnesses before God. (vs. 50 and 51)

We can also tell her family asked Rebekah if she would go with Abraham’s servant. (vs. 58)

The result was Isaac and Rebekah were married as Rebekah became Isaac’s wife. (66-67)

You forgot to present your conclusion on the matter or you have not arrived at one yet?

Gary

[GoldenEagle]

I agree, there was a choice and an agreement. I believe that a marriage is a covenant relationship between a man and a woman that is intended to last for life that is consummated via physical union. I see no other criteria necessary in the eyes of God for a marriage to be valid.

Gary

Interesting...

Re: Rebekah and Isaac (Gen. 24:67 or in context Gen. 22-:1-68) – In this passage in context we see God was involved, that Isaac’s Dad (Abraham) was involved, Abraham’s servant, Rebekah’s parents and family’s blessings (witnesses), Rebekah herself had to agree to the marriage. Would you agree?

From this story we can tell there was Abraham’s instruction to his trusted servant. (1-4)

Abraham’s servant sought God’s favor and direction. (vs. 14)

We can also tell that Rebekah’s parents blessed the marriage as witnesses before God. (vs. 50 and 51)

We can also tell her family asked Rebekah if she would go with Abraham’s servant. (vs. 58)

The result was Isaac and Rebekah were married as Rebekah became Isaac’s wife. (66-67)

You forgot to present your conclusion on the matter or you have not arrived at one yet?

Gary

Well, I thought it was obvious but it takes more than just sex to make a marriage. The reasons are posted in the example you cited of Isaac and Rebekah.

[gdemoss]

I agree, there was a choice and an agreement. I believe that a marriage is a covenant relationship between a man and a woman that is intended to last for life that is consummated via physical union. I see no other criteria necessary in the eyes of God for a marriage to be valid.

Gary

Interesting...

Re: Rebekah and Isaac (Gen. 24:67 or in context Gen. 22-:1-68) – In this passage in context we see God was involved, that Isaac’s Dad (Abraham) was involved, Abraham’s servant, Rebekah’s parents and family’s blessings (witnesses), Rebekah herself had to agree to the marriage. Would you agree?

From this story we can tell there was Abraham’s instruction to his trusted servant. (1-4)

Abraham’s servant sought God’s favor and direction. (vs. 14)

We can also tell that Rebekah’s parents blessed the marriage as witnesses before God. (vs. 50 and 51)

We can also tell her family asked Rebekah if she would go with Abraham’s servant. (vs. 58)

The result was Isaac and Rebekah were married as Rebekah became Isaac’s wife. (66-67)

You forgot to present your conclusion on the matter or you have not arrived at one yet?

Gary

Well, I thought it was obvious but it takes more than just sex to make a marriage. The reasons are posted in the example you cited of Isaac and Rebekah.

So it is your position that without everything you showed in the example that one is not married in the eyes of God?

Gary

[GoldenEagle]

I agree, there was a choice and an agreement. I believe that a marriage is a covenant relationship between a man and a woman that is intended to last for life that is consummated via physical union. I see no other criteria necessary in the eyes of God for a marriage to be valid.

Gary

Interesting...

Re: Rebekah and Isaac (Gen. 24:67 or in context Gen. 22-:1-68) – In this passage in context we see God was involved, that Isaac’s Dad (Abraham) was involved, Abraham’s servant, Rebekah’s parents and family’s blessings (witnesses), Rebekah herself had to agree to the marriage. Would you agree?

From this story we can tell there was Abraham’s instruction to his trusted servant. (1-4)

Abraham’s servant sought God’s favor and direction. (vs. 14)

We can also tell that Rebekah’s parents blessed the marriage as witnesses before God. (vs. 50 and 51)

We can also tell her family asked Rebekah if she would go with Abraham’s servant. (vs. 58)

The result was Isaac and Rebekah were married as Rebekah became Isaac’s wife. (66-67)

You forgot to present your conclusion on the matter or you have not arrived at one yet?

Gary

Well, I thought it was obvious but it takes more than just sex to make a marriage. The reasons are posted in the example you cited of Isaac and Rebekah.

So it is your position that without everything you showed in the example that one is not married in the eyes of God?

Gary

Lol. It is my position that it takes more than just sex to be married in the eyes of God based on those verses. In other words the verses surrounding the verse you mentioned Gen 24:67 negate the premise that sexual consumation is the only thing one must accomplish to be married. Would you agree?

Perhaps we're saying the same thing? Lol.