De-Evolution of Culture

[GoldenEagle]

LOL Yeah your time resources are really overcharged seeing how much time you spend posting here. Honestly, I don't buy that excuse. I can imagine you have time for what's important and I don't think its a case of not having enough time. And for someone who has no interest in the topic you seem to be spending a lot of time talking about it. So it looks more like excuses and less like a legitimate deficit of time or resources.

Good day Shiloh.

To me, what the Bible has to say about homosexuality is one thing. The effects of same sex marriage being made legal the other.

Jon cited a study that showed that children raised by same sex parents suffer often.

But any of us posters showed that only because of the legalization of same sex marriage, children are taken out of traditional families and placed in LM/GF- homes. Neither did anybody believe that, once same sex marriage becomes legal, children living in traditional families can be taken out through adoption into LM/GF homes. Hence, I don’t see any proof for the allegation made above.

Have a nice week

Thomas

Thomas, the Bible says homosexuality is a sin. The effects of same sex marriage being legal is a consequence of legalizing something that is clearly agains the Bible.

The study showed that children raised by people of the same sex on average had more challenges in life. This section underlined doesn't make any sense. We're talking about people who already have children and have raised their children with same sex partners through artificial insemination and surrogate mothers. Also there is the possibility those children were adopted.

The issue that being raised by a LM or GF on average has a worse affect than being raised by IBFs (intact biological families). This includes on average a higher propensity to be on welfare, lower educational attainment, struggles with depression, issues with trouble with the law, and for females have more sexual partners.

Compared with children raised by their married biological parents (IBF), children of homosexual parents (LM and GF):

• Are much more likely to have received welfare (IBF 17%; LM 69%; GF 57%)
  
• Have lower educational attainment
  
• Report less safety and security in their family of origin
  
• Report more ongoing "negative impact" from their family of origin
  
• Are more likely to suffer from depression
  
• Have been arrested more often
  
• If they are female, have had more sexual partners--both male and female
  

Are you dismissing this research? If so on what basis?

There is a case for children raised by LM's (lesbian mothers) and GF's (gay fathers) being more prone to having more sexual partners ("The daughters of lesbians have 4 times as many female (that is, same-sex) sexual partners than the daughters of married biological parents, and the daughters of homosexual fathers have 6 times as many.") and adopting a homosexual worldview ("It found that children of homosexual fathers are nearly 3 times as likely, and children of lesbian mothers are nearly 4 times as likely, to identify as something other than entirely heterosexual. Children of lesbian mothers are 75% more likely, and children of homosexual fathers are 3 times more likely, to be currently in a same-sex romantic relationship").

The research shows sexual abuse occurs more often with parents who are LM's and GF's. ("The most shocking and troubling outcomes, however, are those related to sexual abuse. Children raised by a lesbian mother were 10 times more likely to have been "touched sexually by a parent or other adult caregiver" (23% reported this, vs. only 2% for children of married biological parents), while those raised by a homosexual father were 3 times more likely (reported by 6%)".)

All these things point to the fact that same sex parents on average weaken the family unit or structure as God intended. Would agree or no?

Simply saying you disagree with something doesn't provide any evidence to the contrary would you agree?

Have a great day,

GE

[thomas t]

Hello Golden Eagle

What do you mean you agree with the latter? Please clarify so I don't misunderstand you.

hhm, I don't quite know where you are wanting to lead with these questions.

Never mind.

Yes, Jon, I agree with you that we should live a biblical life and I think it is helpful if we would know a biblical foundation for every word we speak.

People who are single to my knowledge have a harder time adopting than married people no? This seems logical. Perhaps I'm wrong in this assumption.

Yes, Jon, this seems logical.

Well, now I want to adress to the last post you wrote me. I doubt that you understood what I was writing (the lines that you underlined). I'm not arguing against the study.

I find your style a tad tyring. I write something and I get ten questions in return. Well, never mind.

Simply saying you disagree with something doesn't provide any evidence to the contrary would you agree?

Yes, Jon, I agree.

All these things point to the fact that same sex parents on average weaken the family unit or structure as God intended. Would agree or no?

Look Jon. What I put my critiqe upon was the fact that the allegation that the legalization of same sex marriage weakened the family structure is unproven in this thread. I might make it clearer when I repeat: the study holds that children raised in LM/GF homes offen suffer, the study does not show that the strong units (traditional families) will be torn apart once same sex marriage is legalized. Neither does the study show that the legalization of same sex marriage would make it possible to adopt children out of traditional families into LM/GF homes. I repeat, I don't see the prove for the allegation cited above.

I want to add: in order to prove the allegation that the legalization of ss marriage weakens something, it isn't enough to show that the one families are stronger or better that the other on average. If the study can present the evidence that children will be transformed or transferred from traditional families into LM/GF families through the legalization of same sex marriage, then, at last, the evidence is made for the allegation above. What I have in mind is the following: where do the children LM or GF adopt come from? From orphanages? From the streets? Then the comparison between traditional families and LM/GF families misses the point, Jon. And when you argue with artificial insemination for lesbian mothers, you don't show that children out of traditional families are being transferred into a same sex parent's home. And again, the comparison between traditional families and same sex parent's families misses the point for what you are wanting to show.

Thomas

Edited November 12, 2012 by thomas t

[GoldenEagle]

Same sex marriage weakens the family unit.

The reason I ask questions is I didn't want to misunderstand you Thomas. I don't want to assume I know what you mean by things that to me seem unclear. That's why I asked for clarification. That's why I ask questions.

You said:

As I already mentioned, I like everything the Bible has to say to us.

and also...

Yes, Jon, I agree with you that we should live a biblical life and I think it is helpful if we would know a biblical foundation for every word we speak.

The Bible clearly states that homosexuality is sin. Therefore approving a relationship legally based on a sinful relationship weakens the family unit. Do you agree with this line of thinking?

So let me turn this question around do you believe the that legalizing same sex marriage has not weakened the family unit?

Just two questions this time so we can focus the discussion.

[Guest shiloh357]

Jon cited a study that showed that children raised by same sex parents suffer often.

That is true and part of the reason it is true is because same sex marriage is rooted in selfishness. The fight for same sex marriage and the fight for same sex couples adopting children has to do with them simply wanting the right to do it. It has nothing do with them having a genuine concern for the welfare of the children they are adopting. They are simply wanting the right to adopt for themselves, so that they can feel that they are equal to heterosexuals. The children suffer because the motive for adopting isn't love.

But any of us posters showed that only because of the legalization of same sex marriage, children are taken out of traditional families and placed in LM/GF- homes. Neither did anybody believe that, once same sex marriage becomes legal, children living in traditional families can be taken out through adoption into LM/GF homes. Hence, I don’t see any proof for the allegation made above.

Perhaps the reason you can't see the proof is because, as you said, your brain only has so much it can hold and that bit of information didn't make it in before there was no more room. The proof is there if you are willing to see it.

[thomas t]

Same sex marriage weakens the family unit.

The reason I ask questions is I didn't want to misunderstand you Thomas. I don't want to assume I know what you mean by things that to me seem unclear. That's why I asked for clarification. That's why I ask questions.

You said:

As I already mentioned, I like everything the Bible has to say to us.

and also...

Yes, Jon, I agree with you that we should live a biblical life and I think it is helpful if we would know a biblical foundation for every word we speak.

The Bible clearly states that homosexuality is sin. Therefore approving a relationship legally based on a sinful relationship weakens the family unit. Do you agree with this line of thinking?

So let me turn this question around do you believe the that legalizing same sex marriage has not weakened the family unit?

Just two questions this time so we can focus the discussion.

Hello Jon,

just to know, if I got you right, you argue like this:

Every law should be based on what is written in the Bible (I read this between the lines of what you write).

Then I know where you are leading.

I'll answer the questions first...

So let me turn this question around do you believe the that legalizing same sex marriage has not weakened the family unit?

I remain neutral on this at the moment. Meanwhile, I'm open for any advice.

Therefore approving a relationship legally based on a sinful relationship weakens the family unit. Do you agree with this line of thinking?

To say this first, I'm not approving legal same sew marriage.

I'm reading between the lines of this question that you think that legalizing something equals approving it. In contrast, I think the following way:

If you cannot prove that legalizing something does not do harm to somebody, you should legalize the cause, if leaving it illegal would mean discriminating against anybody.

Two times "If": I hope that phrase is not too compicated.

Have a good day

Thomas

[Guest]

.... Nobody really cares about biblical compliance, at least here in Europe, obviously....

Obviously

[Guest]

Jon, had a bad personal night last night. Had nothing to offer. Today seems like it may be better. Yes, do not agree. No, wasn't that I didn't want to address your points, just not in a place I could do so. To top it off, demons were present in the home keeping me from sleeping....

Praying~!

[GoldenEagle]

Jon cited a study that showed that children raised by same sex parents suffer often.

That is true and part of the reason it is true is because same sex marriage is rooted in selfishness. The fight for same sex marriage and the fight for same sex couples adopting children has to do with them simply wanting the right to do it. It has nothing do with them having a genuine concern for the welfare of the children they are adopting. They are simply wanting the right to adopt for themselves, so that they can feel that they are equal to heterosexuals. The children suffer because the motive for adopting isn't love.

But any of us posters showed that only because of the legalization of same sex marriage, children are taken out of traditional families and placed in LM/GF- homes. Neither did anybody believe that, once same sex marriage becomes legal, children living in traditional families can be taken out through adoption into LM/GF homes. Hence, I don’t see any proof for the allegation made above.

Perhaps the reason you can't see the proof is because, as you said, your brain only has so much it can hold and that bit of information didn't make it in before there was no more room. The proof is there if you are willing to see it.

Interesting perspective Shiloh particularly in bold.

[GoldenEagle]

Hello Jon,

just to know, if I got you right, you argue like this:

Every law should be based on what is written in the Bible (I read this between the lines of what you write).

Then I know where you are leading.

This is why it’s better to ask questions than presume to know the motivation or thoughts of another person. I’m not saying every law should be based on the Bible. Laws are flawed and man-made. Take the legalization of alcohol or cigarettes for example. Are these products truly beneficial to human beings? Yet they are legal. What I am saying is every doctrine or stance a Christian takes should be based on the Bible. The Bible is the standard for Christians, not flawed, and is God-breathed would you agree?

Therefore approving a relationship legally based on a sinful relationship weakens the family unit. Do you agree with this line of thinking?

To say this first, I'm not approving legal same sew marriage.

I'm reading between the lines of this question that you think that legalizing something equals approving it.

The Bible is clear evidence for homosexuality to be a sin. As a Christian who studies the Bible we should be able see that homosexuality causes harm to all those who are affected by it. Do you see this? This includes extended family members, children (adopted or born through artificial insemination and surrogate mothers), and friends.

So let me turn this question around do you believe the that legalizing same sex marriage has not weakened the family unit?

I remain neutral on this at the moment. Meanwhile, I'm open for any advice.

From my perspective you are not neutral nor are you open to advice or teachings from the Bible. Not taking a side on something like this is in essence making excuses for homosexual behavior. Omission can be equated with concession would you agree? Frankly I believe that Shiloh got it right when he said “The proof is there if you’re willing to see it.”

After all Peter said when questioned about speaking the truth we as Christians are to obey God and not men. (Acts 5:29b)

Acts 5:29b

“We ought to obey God rather than men.”

Who are we trying to please? Galatians. 1:10 says…

Gal. 1:10

For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ.

Romans 12:1-2 also comes to mind… We’re not to conform to this world but be transformed by the renewing of our mind as found in the Bible would you agree?

Rom. 12:1-2

¹ I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. ² And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

Bottom Line: As a Christian who studies and believes the Bible there is no possible way to approve of same sex marriages regardless of what laws of countries may be in place.

6 questions this time.

But perhaps we should just move on and agree to disagree as I don’t see this part of the discussion being fruitful any longer.

Have a good day as well.

God bless,

GE

[thomas t]

From my perspective you are not neutral nor are you open to advice or teachings from the Bible. Not taking a side on something like this is in essence making excuses for homosexual behavior. Omission can be equated with concession would you agree?

6 questions this time.

But perhaps we should just move on and agree to disagree as I don’t see this part of the discussion being fruitful any longer.

I take your last line as an excuse not to answer the 6 questions. Just want to address the first one. In Germany, there are 82 million people living here. You want me to comment on every single sin of every single person? I won't do that, I'm sorry. I mean, not all of us Germans are homosexual, but these who are not, I'm sure, still have other things in their lives that are still remaining ungodly to say the least...

I think in order do adress the topic of homosexuality (or any other topic, but I stick to that one here), one need to ask oneself 6 questions:

* Do I feel pure love for my lesbian or gay fellow citizens when I speak out about their lives?

* Didn't homosexuals yet got to hear that their lives are inferior to those decent wife-husband-lives, so far?

* Did Jesus mean expressing opinions about generic themes in public message boards when he said "make disciples" (Matthew 28:19)?

* when interfering into the lives of others - and sexuality is, in my opinion, part of the identity of a person - , don't I need the personal and specific call by Jesus to actually do so? I mean ... can I just start preaching like this without Jesus having given to me the concrete call to do this?

* Am I really free from any touch of being set under pressure by my fellow brothers when I state my opinion about this subject?

* Am I praising the Lord when I write my opinion about it?

If one can answer all of the six question with a wholehearted "Yes, it is", then one should state one's opinion about this in a public message board, - do you agree?

But if any of the sic questions is answered by a "no" or a "I'm not 100% sure about it" then I won't do it and I won't be dragged into this by my dearest brothers.

Have a good day, you too.

Thomas