Rapture Questions

[Massorite]

Onelight:

These two verses do not show where anything changed. They are inclusive. John was not taken to another place, nor does it say something like "Then I was shown" or any other similar phrase.

Thank you Onelight.. I like those two graphics, they are very simple and easy to understand. I also am thankful that on this one little thing, there is so much to be discussed. It just shows that the Word of God is the most interesting thing, and very deep. One scripture you have read over and over, the Holy Spirit can still give you life changing revelation from it.

I have noted your understanding of the word "AND" John stating "He Saw" the Greek literally means new understanding or revelation. This does not mean the visions can't be in order though as events unfold, but it could be also understood that the visions are just given, and not in the order of events.

Still, I suppose one could not ignore the seamless flow of Rev 8, from the seals to the trumpets.

My issue though is still with the verses I have given several of............ What to do with those? If your 2nd picture of events is the correct one? That is where I take God's instruction of Here a little, and there a little... compare like things with like things.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Jesus said the stars fall from heaven, rolled up, gone............ AFTER THE TRIBULATION... the sun and moon go dark... AFTER THE TRIBULATION.

The Heavens Shaken, every mountain moved from it's place. (Massive Earthquake)

After the tribulation........................

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

See OneLight...... while you focus just on the Order of what John saw and gave. Jesus said that he comes right after the release of the sixth seal. The events of the sixth Seal are Perfectly matched to what every other scripture about it say. Perfectly matched, and several scriptures.

I have to take (Picture 1) when told to compare spiritual with spiritual, like things with like things, and not be real concerned with the Order of things John was given. Unless the whole book of Revelation was given in perfect order on the same time line. Then it would be wise to follow the Order. However, Revelations was not given to John that way.

If I don't take Picture 1, then I don't know where to place several scriptures. because Immediately After is a stronger witness than just assuming John was given everything in perfect order, when much of what was Given John skipped around time lines is several chapters.

Jesus Is Lord.

I disagree with you both. I tried long and hard to line things up in the book of Revelation and I have come to the conclusion that God jumbled it all up so we couldn't line it up. However what we do have are certain scriptural declarations that we can hang onto. Like the scripture that says that we will be raised from the grave or changed when the last trumpet is blown.

[Montana Marv]

Rev 8:13b - Woe, Woe, Woe to the inhabitants of the earth because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the other three angels.

I would say that we as believers are long gone before any of the trumpets are blown.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[firestormx]

I read the whole thread, Although I don't agree with you, I would still like to understand if I'm reading and understanding you correctly. So let me ask.

Are you saying the seals and trumpets happen at the same time? If so how could the sixth seal and the 4th trumpet be blown at the same time. From what I gather from what you are saying, you believe the sixth seal is talking about all stars, where the 4th trumpet clearly says a third. So how could they both happen at the same time, ( which some people believe, all seals, trumpets and bowels are given at once ) when one ( according to your understanding) says all stars, and the other says a third of the stars? They both couldn't happen at the same time.

Or are you saying the listing in revelation is not in order of the way it will happen, just the order in which it was revealed to john? If this is what your saying then I defer to Onelight's question, how do you then explain the 7 trumpets unfolding from the 7th seal? ( and later the 7 bowel judgements from the 7th trumpet)

Thank you for helping me understand your understanding on this. God Bless you

Firestormx

[Montana Marv]

Massorite

changed when the last trumpet is blown.

You may not agree, and it may be confusing, but Paul never said we are changed when the (Last) trumpet is blown. Go back and read it again, then do a study on how trumpets are sounded.

Montana Marv

I would say that we as believers are long gone before any of the trumpets are blown.

I agree, Now to pinpoint the place in the Tribulation they start to sound. Onelight had gotten me to reexamine this part.

Jesus Is Lord.

I Believe in the full 70th week of Daniel is yet in our future. It is my understanding that the first 3 1/2 years the world is at peace (psudo peace) under the control of the man of sin (man of lawlessness, Antichrist, the beast) and the false prophet according to Rev 13. Then the final 3 1/2 years is when all the chaos breaks out after the A/D is set up. I put the Seal judgments for the first 2 years of the last half of the one seven, Then the Trumpet judgments for the 3rd year, followed by the Bowl judgments during the final 6 months. All being finalized by the Second Coming which follows the One Seven and the Battle of Armageddon.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[OneLight]

firestormx

Or are you saying the listing in revelation is not in order of the way it will happen, just the order in which it was revealed to john? If this is what your saying then I defer to Onelight's question, how do you then explain the 7 trumpets unfolding from the 7th seal? ( and later the 7 bowel judgements from the 7th trumpet)

Well, this is a Old post.

I also see a much more destructive force than Possibly Onelight does in the trumpets and bowls. So destructive that only the few armies of the kings and scattered people will be spared to even have a battle at the end. If you read the End of Rev and the New city, there appears to have been some heathen people that did survive, but not very many. I doubt there is over a million people left when it's all done. Jesus said this tribulation will be worse than the flood, and Danial confirms that. Everyone died in the flood, cept Noah and the family.

So, I have to take a (Wishy/Washy) stance at this time as to when that first trumpet is blown. They are not in order as given to John, that would be impossible. The sixth seal, then seventh is at the end, when the Lord faces what is left of the human race personally. The Trumpets do not fully put out the stars, they work at 1/3 as they originally did

Onelight thinks we should read it like any other novel. That they are all laid out in perfect order, and I don't believe that is the case. I believe the Bowls are saved for last though as they are the most destructive. Only Jesus can open the seals, and when he opens the 6th seal every single star is wiped from the galaxy. rolled up and gone. Then 1/2 hour of silence and he comes. So Jesus starts the Tribulation with the release of the Antichrist, and ends it with the release of the seventh seal. Only Jesus can do this, the rest is carried out by his angelic team.

Sorry, Mike, but apparently you do not understand my beliefs as well as you think you do. Read Revelation like a novel? Where did you ever get that idea from??? In the future, perhaps it would be best for all involved if I spoke for myself and any idea you may have of me, state that is it what you believe, not what I believe.

Lets look at what scripture says, that is what I believe.

At the opening of the seventh seal we read:

Revelation 8:1-6

When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets. Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel’s hand. Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake.

So the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

Notice that after the seventh seal was opened, all the above took place, including the preparation of the seven trumpets. Now, let's see what happens at the seventh trumpet, excluding the explanations of other visions from chapters 12 through 14.

Revelation 11:15

Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

Revelation 15:1

Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete.

God lays out when the seals, trumpets and bowls will enter time, not me. People take what sounds similar and try to make them the same, which is not the case. Each event is its own event.

As for there not being many around for th efinal battle, you need to understand what scripture tells us in Revelation 20:7-8

Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.

How many sands of the sea is there? More then just "only the few armies of the kings and scattered people", yes? When the New Heaven and New Earth arrive, ushering in the New Jerusalem, the Great White Throne Judgment will of already occurred and there will be no more "heathen people" alive. Saying this, it seems you have mixed the tribulation, the time after His 1000 year reign, and the time after the Great White Throne Judgment all together. Perhaps it would be best to reexamine your understanding of the end times.

[Montana Marv]

With the S, T, and B judgments, sometimes it is better to work from the last to the first. 19 individual events. For each has a purpose, and also each has a place or location. Example; the 1/4 of the world which dies in the 4th Seal must have a location. The 1st Trumpet must also have location for the 1/3 to die. The 2nd Trumpet must also have location, as with the 3rd Trumpet.

I like to say that each of the events are all in the correct sequence. And the finality of all the events equates to Rev 1:7 - Look he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of Him (the Second Coming). For all will see (the souls of those who have died, and those still alive on earth). The King of Kings and the Lord of Lords is coming. In essence all of Creation will witness this event.

Since the Lord will return similar to how He assended and to the exact location (the Mt of Olives), how is it that those still alive on earth will see Him (thier location) as to where those who saw Him assend into Heaven. Line of sight. How did they get there and what series of events occured to put them there. Just some questions which need answering. Then one will see purpose in all the S, T, and B judgments.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, all.

Guys, it's not that difficult if you simply give up the notion that the "Tribulation" is a seven-year period. The "tribulation" (Greek: thlipsis meaning "pressure; crowding") is more about the pressure and distress from the pressures put upon Isra'el since the first century. It continues today and comes to an END before the sixth seal is opened.

When one reads from the sixth seal through the fifth trumpet, can't you see that these "judgments" are the results of a meteorite shower? We're not talking about the actual destruction of all the stars (gaseous "suns" scattered throughout the universe); we're talking about "shooting stars" or "falling stars" (chunks of rock, ice, and debris from the tails of comets or from asteroids) that fall through our atmosphere and ignite from the friction)! The fact that these are meteorites rather than meteors comes from the information given that these objects strike the ground! It's that simple. It's like what happened in Russia a few days back with that meteorite impact they had.

Furthermore, one absolutely MUST realize that these prophetic passages center on ISRA'EL, not so much on the whole earth, except how such impacts would affect the rest of the earth. The word "earth" in the Scriptures is just that: "DIRT!" Both the Greek word "gee" (spelled gamma-eta and pronounced "gay") and the Hebrew word "erets" (spelled alef-reish-tsadday, and prounounced "eh-RETS") both refer to the GROUND! This can refer to the soil or dirt which makes up the ground, the land comprised of the ground, or THE Land of Isra'el. It can also mean by extension ALL of the lands upon which men dwell, both the world of the inhabited portions of our planet and the planet earth itself. But, one must remember that this was an AGRICULTURAL society! Whether through revelation they understood that the earth was a globe or not, that wasn't their focus when they talked about the "earth!" They may have known of the great distances one would have to travel to go from one end of the Roman Empire to the other, but they wouldn't have known anything more than that - except, as I said before, through God's revelation IF they were paying attention! Sometimes, we tend to perceive them as having the same knowledge that we have today. That's NOT TRUE! The main occupations were FARMERS and HERDSMEN, living off the Land as God gave them increase!

So, the "tribulation" DOES NOT EQUAL the "seventieth Seven (or 'Week') of Dani'el 9!" They are DIFFERENT time periods serving quite different purposes! The same goes for the "Great Tribulation" and the last half of the "seventieth Seven." They are NOT THE SAME PERIOD! The purposes are different!

Now, I believe that the events as listed in the prophetic book of the Revelation follow the second button OneLight gave above, but the "tribulation" ends BEFORE the sixth seal begins.

The seven seals are on a book of doom: As Yeshua` breaks each seal, He is able to unroll the scroll and read more of the curses written within.

The seven trumpets are air-raid sirens! They not only occur sequentially, but they can occur SIMULTANEOUSLY, CONCURRENTLY as each new air-raid siren adds to the cacaphony!

The seven bowls of plagues are poured out in rapid succession, like the firing of a gattling gun on a WWII Spitfire, again each one compounding the destruction and the panic, like compounding interest!

And, the Second Coming is NOT instantaneous as some have described! It is a PROCESS that takes time! It begins with the seventh trumpet and continues to the descent in Revelation 19!

The purpose for the Second Coming is important to note also: He comes to take vengeance on all those who persecute His people!

Furthermore, "His people" does include believing Gentiles grafted into His "Olive Tree," as "wild branches" grafted in among the "natural branches," but it primarily refers to the Isra'elis, both the Jews and the Isra'elites from other tribes not yet revealed, the "natural branches" themselves!

Putting all this together, can y'all see how that "pre-trib," post-trib," and "pre-wrath" positions just don't "cut it" for me anymore? Even those who claim a "preterist" position aren't right. The closest thing I've found is a "partial preterist" position, although that is open to interpretation.

God bless your studies!

[missmuffet]

Rapture related:

OK, I guess I have never really read in context what Paul was writing to the Thessalonian believers. He tells them that this event of the catching up happens as part of the day of the Lord. And though we don't know the times or seasons it doesn't come upon us as a thief if we are not walking in darkness. I find this truly amazing. I was walking in darkness up until ten years ago, then began a rigorous training in repentance that netted a belief in the gospel followed by more strenuous action of seeking the Lord for sanctification and lo and behold, I have been quickly understanding that that day is almost upon us. Poor pretribbers are going to get a big surprise.

Gary

That is interesting that you should say that because I have always said "Poor Posttribbers are going to get a big surprise".Their are many views on this messageboard.No one is going to change their view.I guess you can argue about it until it actually happens and then we will know for sure. This is just as hot of a subject as gun control.

[gdemoss]

Rapture related:

OK, I guess I have never really read in context what Paul was writing to the Thessalonian believers. He tells them that this event of the catching up happens as part of the day of the Lord. And though we don't know the times or seasons it doesn't come upon us as a thief if we are not walking in darkness. I find this truly amazing. I was walking in darkness up until ten years ago, then began a rigorous training in repentance that netted a belief in the gospel followed by more strenuous action of seeking the Lord for sanctification and lo and behold, I have been quickly understanding that that day is almost upon us. Poor pretribbers are going to get a big surprise.

Gary

That is interesting that you should say that because I have always said "Poor Posttribbers are going to get a big surprise".Their are many views on this messageboard.No one is going to change their view.I guess you can argue about it until it actually happens and then we will know for sure.

we love them all for sure! Enough to plead until the curtain is pulled back and the reality is known. But you are correct in that we cannot change their view by debating upon the board. Truth is revealed about true righteousness that is in Christ that involves the way people treat one another. The way they 'love' each other. And from that, the rest of the truth about the mysteries of Gods timelines and the ways to be successful in life unfold. It wasn't until I became obedient to that which was carnal in nature that the spiritual truths opened up to me. We are all limited by our own personal alignment to truth in actions as our carnal understanding cannot give us what we need to know simply by sitting down to seek to understand a doctrine like the rapture. God won't allow it. We are simply not designed in a way that we can 'figure' it all out. Hence why we are told that as we see the day approaching, which it is here, we are to gather together more often for the purpose of provoking one another unto love and good works, not debate over doctrinal positions that cannot be known without that love and good works being lived out.

Luk 16:11 If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true [riches]?

Once I began to use my wealth righteously, I began to receive the true riches of wisdom, knowledge and understanding. We would do better to open up discussions about moral issues such as these than rapture questions.

Peace in Christ! And may he richly bless you with a clearer view of all things as you seek to obey every precept and line built up from the word.