Church and State

[Guest homesteader]

The following are the letters from both the Danbury Baptist and Thom. Jefferson's reply; also the seventh paragraph of Jefferson's second inaugural address read the post and draw your own conclusions.

Sir,

Among the many millions in America and Europe who rejoice in your election to office, we embrace the first opportunity which we have enjoyed in our collective capacity, since your inauguration , to express our great satisfaction in your appointment to the Chief Magistracy in the Unite States. And though the mode of expression may be less courtly and pompous than what many others clothe their addresses with, we beg you, sir, to believe, that none is more sincere.

Our sentiments are uniformly on the side of religious liberty: that Religion is at all times and places a matter between God and individuals, that no man ought to suffer in name, person, or effects on account of his religious opinions, [and] that the legitimate power of civil government extends no further than to punish the man who works ill to his neighbor. But sir, our constitution of government is not specific. Our ancient charter, together with the laws made coincident therewith, were adapted as the basis of our government at the time of our revolution. And such has been our laws and usages, and such still are, [so] that Religion is considered as the first object of Legislation, and therefore what religious privileges we enjoy (as a minor part of the State) we enjoy as favors granted, and not as inalienable rights. And these favors we receive at the expense of such degrading acknowledgments, as are inconsistent with the rights of freemen. It is not to be wondered at therefore, if those who seek after power and gain, under the pretense of government and Religion, should reproach their fellow men, [or] should reproach their Chief Magistrate, as an enemy of religion, law, and good order, because he will not, dares not, assume the prerogative of Jehovah and make laws to govern the Kingdom of Christ.

Sir, we are sensible that the President of the United States is not the National Legislator and also sensible that the national government cannot destroy the laws of each State, but our hopes are strong that the sentiment of our beloved President, which have had such genial effect already, like the radiant beams of the sun, will shine and prevail through all these States--and all the world--until hierarchy and tyranny be destroyed from the earth. Sir, when we reflect on your past services, and see a glow of philanthropy and goodwill shining forth in a course of more than thirty years, we have reason to believe that America's God has raised you up to fill the Chair of State out of that goodwill which he bears to the millions which you preside over. May God strengthen you for the arduous task which providence and the voice of the people have called you--to sustain and support you and your Administration against all the predetermined opposition of those who wish to rise to wealth and importance on the poverty and subjection of the people.

And may the Lord preserve you safe from every evil and bring you at last to his Heavenly Kingdom through Jesus Christ our Glorious Mediator.

Signed in behalf of the Association,

Neh,h Dodge }

Eph'm Robbins } The Committee

Stephen S. Nelson }

Letter To Danbury Baptist Association

Thomas Jefferson (Jan. 1, 1802)

Gentlemen,--The affectionate sentiment of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist Association, give me the highest satisfaction. My duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature would "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and Creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect and esteem.

From Jefferson second Inaugural the seven paragraph:

In matters of religion I have considered that its free exercise is placed by the Constitution independent of the powers of the General Government. I have therefore undertaken on no occasion to prescribe the religious exercises suited to it, but have left them, as the Constitution found them, under the direction and discipline of the church or state authorities acknowledged by the several religious societies.

Edited October 26, 2004 by homesteader

[Work in Progress]

What Thomas Jefferson meant in 1802 when he coined this phrase was that the government cannot make any law that respects or benefits a religion when it does not benefit the community.

SJ, aren't you reading a whole lot into it? I was under the impression that the law was simply to prevent what they had feld from - a government church. (Which is what Anitiox said).

[Guest idied2]

Then I put to you what are you doing in a free nation that has as its first ammendment

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

I would highly recommend you find a nation that doesn't have such permissive laws that give free reign to people to believe what they may. If you call yourself an American you have yoked yourself to other Americans. And Americans are Christians, Catholics, Jews, Muslems, Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists, Atheists, Humanists, Unitarian Universalists, Wiccans, Pagans, Shintoists, Scientologists, Transendentalists, and even Satanists. Its up to you what nation you align yourself with. I will put my life on the line to defend everyone's right to believe what they believe to be true. I don't have to agree with them. I just have to live with them.

What am I doing anywhere? All of creation belongs to my FATHER. I am where HE put me. Waiting on HIS WORD to go forth. As for free? you are free to worship your nation and pledge your allegience to them first and by their guidelines you can worship a god that loves them.

Ps 37:9

For evildoers shall be cut off; But those who wait on the Lord, They shall inherit the earth.

Isa 40:31

But those who wait on the Lord Shall renew their strength; They shall mount up with wings like eagles, They shall run and not be weary, They shall walk and not faint.

La 3:25

The Lord is good to those who wait for Him, To the soul who seeks Him

In CHRIST JESUS

[Ovedya]

Has it been mentioned yet that "separation of church and state" is a myth?

Has it been mentioned that the intention was never to keep God out of the government's business, but to keep the government out of God's business? The First Amendment is a protection of the church from the government, not the other way around.

[Guest idied2]

yes but every law of man, only gives the enemy another area to twist with his hands...

we can debate the laws all we want, but the only law that matters any more, the only law that covers all 10 commandments without dispute, is the law of love,

love your neighbor as yourself...

Jesus disputed all the laws at once with that statement.

That is the second commandment. Here is the first.

29 Jesus answered him, "The first of all the commandments is: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.' This is the first commandment.

Now read this carefully and answer this question. Will GOD hold you harmless for standing before the Idol image that rpresents the beast (your Nation) and holding your hand over your heart and pledgeing alliegence to it?

LORD GOD please forgive us and our parents because they didn't know what they were doing.

Exodus 20

5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,

In CHRIST JESUS

[Fr Chuck]

There is no and has never been historically a seperation of Church and State,

The idea was revised by the CLU from a statement made by Thomas Jefferson in one of his writings.

The Consitution of the US and the State Consitutions of almost all states are clear that we are founded and that the Government derives its power from God.

And all the rights given to us by the Government comes from God.

The only clause in the Constitution is that the Government can not inact any laws in hibiting religion. ( quess the CLU and the Supreme court don't care about what is in the Constitution as much as Thomas Jeffersons opinon) since they restrict churches and our rights all the time.

[Guest antitox]

God-man:

Has it been mentioned that the intention was never to keep God out of the government's business, but to keep the government out of God's business? The First Amendment is a protection of the church from the government, not the other way around.

Fr Chuck:

There is no and has never been historically a seperation of Church and State,

The idea was revised by the CLU from a statement made by Thomas Jefferson in one of his writings.

The Consitution of the US and the State Consitutions of almost all states are clear that we are founded and that the Government derives its power from God.

And all the rights given to us by the Government comes from God.

The only clause in the Constitution is that the Government can not inact any laws in hibiting religion. ( quess the CLU and the Supreme court don't care about what is in the Constitution as much as Thomas Jeffersons opinon) since they restrict churches and our rights all the time.

Those points are exactly what it's about and the words "separation of church and state" are not in the Constitution. The Constitution's intent was to favor the people and restrict the government. Those who are in power must always be restricted under the rights of the individual; if this is not the case, then you can never have true freedom. The big-government folks have turned the tables to the point that it becomes more budensome to the people and the church's freedom is being encroached as well.