larryt Posted December 4, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 52 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,230 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 124 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/22/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/03/1952 Share Posted December 4, 2012 B. Are Christians grafted into God’s promise to Israel? 4. Text Re – Christians are Grafted Into Israel: God promised to Abraham a land, a great nation, a great name, and a blessing that would include all the families of the earth. (Gen. 12:1-3) <snip> Thoughts? Do you agree or disagree? Anything to add? There are many that I think I could ask right now but not to confuse the issue let us try to keep a discussion on just one aspect at a time. If we can keep this a discussion between us I would prefer that as too many people all with their own ideas on what you might think is not productive. Personally I am not going to respond to others as my time is valuable and I would like to keep this as civil as possible. What in your thinking are we grafted into? The Nation of Israel? Christ? What? Also if you would point to a definition of replacement theology I would appreciate it as I do not agree with the definition I referred to on the other thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted December 4, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.81 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 4, 2012 There are many that I think I could ask right now but not to confuse the issue let us try to keep a discussion on just one aspect at a time. If we can keep this a discussion between us I would prefer that as too many people all with their own ideas on what you might think is not productive. Personally I am not going to respond to others as my time is valuable and I would like to keep this as civil as possible. What in your thinking are we grafted into? The Nation of Israel? Christ? What? Also if you would point to a definition of replacement theology I would appreciate it as I do not agree with the definition I referred to on the other thread. If other people would like to comment Larry there is really no reason to stop them. This is a discussion thread open to anyone after all. But I see your point. There is no rule that states that one must reply to others comments. So… Here we go. 1. Let’s start at the beginning. How do we define a Covenant? What are the Covenants that God has established? 2. How do we define what is a promise? We know God fulfills but does God break His promises? 3. Replacement Theology: The concept that the Church (Body of Christ) has replaced Israel. There is a specific thread about this here where shiloh357 explains it a lot better I believe than I could: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryt Posted December 4, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 52 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,230 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 124 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/22/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/03/1952 Share Posted December 4, 2012 There are many that I think I could ask right now but not to confuse the issue let us try to keep a discussion on just one aspect at a time. If we can keep this a discussion between us I would prefer that as too many people all with their own ideas on what you might think is not productive. Personally I am not going to respond to others as my time is valuable and I would like to keep this as civil as possible. What in your thinking are we grafted into? The Nation of Israel? Christ? What? Also if you would point to a definition of replacement theology I would appreciate it as I do not agree with the definition I referred to on the other thread. If other people would like to comment Larry there is really no reason to stop them. This is a discussion thread open to anyone after all. But I see your point. There is no rule that states that one must reply to others comments. So… Here we go. 1. Let’s start at the beginning. How do we define a Covenant? What are the Covenants that God has established? 2. How do we define what is a promise? We know God fulfills but does God break His promises? 3. Replacement Theology: The concept that the Church (Body of Christ) has replaced Israel. There is a specific thread about this here where shiloh357 explains it a lot better I believe than I could: Hi GE, I did ask a couple of questions. It appears to me that you are avoiding my questions. I need to know how you define things as it is you who has made some statements. How I define things is irrelevent to knowing your understanding. I cannot respond to your statement until I know what it is that you are trying to say. So if you would define what you mean by covenant and promise that would help as it is you who started this thread. and if you would answer my questions that would help me in my understanding of what it is you are trying to say. You opened it up by asking if there were any questions. I have no problem with others responding but I am just not going to respond at least for the time being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted December 4, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.81 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 4, 2012 If other people would like to comment Larry there is really no reason to stop them. This is a discussion thread open to anyone after all. But I see your point. There is no rule that states that one must reply to others comments. So… Here we go. 1. Let’s start at the beginning. How do we define a Covenant? What are the Covenants that God has established? 2. How do we define what is a promise? We know God fulfills but does God break His promises? 3. Replacement Theology: The concept that the Church (Body of Christ) has replaced Israel. There is a specific thread about this here where shiloh357 explains it a lot better I believe than I could: Hi GE, I did ask a couple of questions. It appears to me that you are avoiding my questions. I need to know how you define things as it is you who has made some statements. How I define things is irrelevent to knowing your understanding. I cannot respond to your statement until I know what it is that you are trying to say. So if you would define what you mean by covenant and promise that would help as it is you who started this thread. and if you would answer my questions that would help me in my understanding of what it is you are trying to say. You opened it up by asking if there were any questions. I have no problem with others responding but I am just not going to respond at least for the time being. Yes I agree Larry you did ask a couple of questions. However, in order for us to understand each other we must first establish common definitions and common ground. For example we both believe that Christ is Messiah the perfect atoning sacrifice for the sin's of man? I assume you agree but let's just take it from that point of view first. What in your thinking are we grafted into? The Nation of Israel? Christ? What? I've given plenty of evidence in the first 3 posts of this thread what I believe. I'm not avoiding your questions as I intend on answering them. But in order to answer them I would like to establish what we agree upon first. I think if you would help me understand your perspective as to these two definitions we could have a very interesting, productive, and cordial discussion. Is that fair? So... I ask again. 1. Let’s start at the beginning. How do we define a Covenant? What are the Covenants that God has established? 2. How do we define what is a promise? We know God fulfills but does God break His promises? God bless, GE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 B. Are Christians grafted into God’s promise to Israel? 4. Text Re – Christians are Grafted Into Israel: God promised to Abraham a land, a great nation, a great name, and a blessing that would include all the families of the earth. (Gen. 12:1-3) <snip> Thoughts? Do you agree or disagree? Anything to add? There are many that I think I could ask right now but not to confuse the issue let us try to keep a discussion on just one aspect at a time. If we can keep this a discussion between us I would prefer that as too many people all with their own ideas on what you might think is not productive. Personally I am not going to respond to others as my time is valuable and I would like to keep this as civil as possible. What in your thinking are we grafted into? The Nation of Israel? Christ? What? Paul uses the agricultural method of grafting to illustrate how Gentiles are included in the blessings God has promised to Israel. "Israel" for purposes of this illustration is the believing Jewish community (not the church). The believing Jewish remnant is the "Israel within Israel" that Paul discusses in Rom. 9 Paul also refers to this remnant as the "Israel of God" in Gal. 6:16. The grafting process includes grafting the foreign branch into the root system of the host tree. As Paul says, "the root supports you; you do not support the root. But what is important is that this is spoken of in corporate not individual terms. Paul is not talking about individual believers being grafted in, but rather the believing Gentile community is grafted into the root in order to receive the blessings (nourishment) that comes from the same root that feeds the natural trunk and branches. Another important point about grafting is that the wild or foreign branch when grafted into the cultivated olive tree bears the fruit of the cultivated tree. It does not bear the same olives that it did when it was on the old tree. The root system represent the Patriarchs. So Gentile believers are grafted into the root and as such are expected to bear the same fruit as the other branches on the tree. Also if you would point to a definition of replacement theology I would appreciate it as I do not agree with the definition I referred to on the other thread. larryt, Replacement theology is not arbitrarily defined. You don't get to pick how you want it defined. Replacement Theology is also known in theological circles as "supercessionism" and it has a definite definition. It is the theological principle espoused by some that the Church as a body of Jews and Gentiles has superceded or "replaced" biblical Israel as the people of God, hence the Jews are no longer God's chosen people. Therefore, the OT promises of blessing made to Israel are transferred to the "new" people of God, the church. Replacement Theology, therefore, recognizes NO prophetic significance for modern Israel. Many who hold to this view are either preterists who believe that all biblical prophecy was fulfilled by AD 70 or they view the prophecies about God's blessing of Israel to refer to the church age. In any case, they both espouse Replacement Theology as I have defined it. You don't get to choose what kind of definition should exist for Replacement Theology. You simply need to understand how it is defined and work from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted December 4, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.81 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 4, 2012 I think you have explained grafting and replacement theology quite well Shiloh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted December 4, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.81 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 4, 2012 Hi GE, I did ask a couple of questions. It appears to me that you are avoiding my questions. I need to know how you define things as it is you who has made some statements... PS - Techinically speaking I did ask first... As these two questions realate to the OP. To understand the OP questions one must define both what is a promise and what Covenants are there still active today would you agree? The two questions becomes: A. How do we know Israel is God’s chosen people? And B. Are Christians grafted into God’s promise to Israel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted December 5, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.27 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted December 5, 2012 Good thread on the Promise! Something interesting is this; "I will make you a Great Nation" is fulfilled in a threefold way; Natural Posterity (Hebrew people) Spriritual Posterity (Christ) Physical Posterity amongst the Nations (Ishmael) "I will Bless Thee" fulfilled in two ways; Temporal Spiritual "Make thy Name Great" is self explanatory; Abraham's name is a Universally recognized Name "I will bless them that bless thee and curse them that curse thee" is self evident in the possessions and disperisons of the land. "In thee shall all the families of the earth be blessed" is fulfilled in Christ; Ga 3:16 Now to Abraham and his descendant were the promises made. He says not, And to descendants, as of many; but as of one, And to your descendant, who is Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryt Posted December 5, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 52 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,230 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 124 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/22/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/03/1952 Share Posted December 5, 2012 B. Are Christians grafted into God’s promise to Israel? 4. Text Re – Christians are Grafted Into Israel: God promised to Abraham a land, a great nation, a great name, and a blessing that would include all the families of the earth. (Gen. 12:1-3) <snip> Thoughts? Do you agree or disagree? Anything to add? There are many that I think I could ask right now but not to confuse the issue let us try to keep a discussion on just one aspect at a time. If we can keep this a discussion between us I would prefer that as too many people all with their own ideas on what you might think is not productive. Personally I am not going to respond to others as my time is valuable and I would like to keep this as civil as possible. What in your thinking are we grafted into? The Nation of Israel? Christ? What? Paul uses the agricultural method of grafting to illustrate how Gentiles are included in the blessings God has promised to Israel. "Israel" for purposes of this illustration is the believing Jewish community (not the church). The believing Jewish remnant is the "Israel within Israel" that Paul discusses in Rom. 9 Paul also refers to this remnant as the "Israel of God" in Gal. 6:16. The grafting process includes grafting the foreign branch into the root system of the host tree. As Paul says, "the root supports you; you do not support the root. But what is important is that this is spoken of in corporate not individual terms. Paul is not talking about individual believers being grafted in, but rather the believing Gentile community is grafted into the root in order to receive the blessings (nourishment) that comes from the same root that feeds the natural trunk and branches. Another important point about grafting is that the wild or foreign branch when grafted into the cultivated olive tree bears the fruit of the cultivated tree. It does not bear the same olives that it did when it was on the old tree. The root system represent the Patriarchs. So Gentile believers are grafted into the root and as such are expected to bear the same fruit as the other branches on the tree. Please clarify something. The believeing Jewish community is not part of the Church (not the church)? Are you making a separation between Jews & Gentiles? If so how do you come to conclusion that there is a difference between Jewish believers and non-Jewish believers? I agree with the corporate grafting in as opposed to individual grafting in. So how do you define the believing nation of Israel today? Also if you would point to a definition of replacement theology I would appreciate it as I do not agree with the definition I referred to on the other thread. larryt, Replacement theology is not arbitrarily defined. You don't get to pick how you want it defined. Replacement Theology is also known in theological circles as "supercessionism" and it has a definite definition. It is the theological principle espoused by some that the Church as a body of Jews and Gentiles has superceded or "replaced" biblical Israel as the people of God, hence the Jews are no longer God's chosen people. Therefore, the OT promises of blessing made to Israel are transferred to the "new" people of God, the church. Replacement Theology, therefore, recognizes NO prophetic significance for modern Israel. Many who hold to this view are either preterists who believe that all biblical prophecy was fulfilled by AD 70 or they view the prophecies about God's blessing of Israel to refer to the church age. In any case, they both espouse Replacement Theology as I have defined it. You don't get to choose what kind of definition should exist for Replacement Theology. You simply need to understand how it is defined and work from there. I was stating that I did not agree with replacement theology as it was stated in the site I mentioned. If it was an accurate depiction of RT them I do not agree with their possition. RT is not upheld by scripture. Jumping to a conclusion as to what I meant about RT is a very big problem on forums such as these. I was not looking to pick or choose. I was looking to establish a precedent. People in general want to generalize for their own peace of mind.(is that an oxymoron?) Grace & Peace LT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryt Posted December 5, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 52 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,230 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 124 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/22/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/03/1952 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Hi GE, I did ask a couple of questions. It appears to me that you are avoiding my questions. I need to know how you define things as it is you who has made some statements... PS - Techinically speaking I did ask first... As these two questions realate to the OP. To understand the OP questions one must define both what is a promise and what Covenants are there still active today would you agree? The two questions becomes: A. How do we know Israel is God’s chosen people? And B. Are Christians grafted into God’s promise to Israel? I fully believe the covenants and the promises are active today. The 2 questions is another matter. A. I do not know that all the people inhabiting the present nation known as Israel are God's chosen people. How and in what sense do you mean God's chosen? By Israel do you mean all the inhabitants, just the ofspring of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. or something else. B. By Christians do you mean gentiles or all Christians, Jew and Gentile alike? Grace & Peace LT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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