Israel's Promise and Being Grafted In...

[Matthitjah]

The Jews where chosen in whole for a purpose to bring forth the Messiah.

Not exactly, God chose them for His own Good Pleasure and Glory.

Remember;

Mt 3:9

And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Israel is a TYPE of the Church.

Don't agree. The Church is grafted into the Promise.

[nebula]

LarryT - The Land inheritance is not passed on to the Gentile-believers. If you disagree, please provide the Scripture which indicates such.

For me, I have no more jealousy against my Jewish believing brethren for their unique gift and calling than I am against the pastor or the evangelist for his unique gift and calling. Let the eyes be the eyes and the ears the ears and the feet the feet. It's all the same.

If it is the Lord's heart to continue using the Jews (and not the Gentiles) through the Lord's second coming, just as with His first coming, then great! I don't need to be a main character in the play, so to speak, to know I am loved and favored by the Lord, and have a unique role in the play, even as a minor character or even as an extra.

[Guest shiloh357]

But it would appear to me that you are saying there is a difference between believeing Jews and Gentile believers.

Yes, I am. They are not the same. One is not better than the other, but they are not the same. They are one in Christ but they are not the same.

Paul makes it quite clear that there should be no schism in the body of Christ. There are not superior positions. In Christ all are equal.

Here we go again, I never argued that. You are trying refute an argument that was never raised.

The faithful Jewish remnant who were cut off and now grafted back in to the heavenly kingdom. Jesus said to the unbelieveing nation that your house is desolate. Mt 23;34-39 and Lu 13:31-35. The faitlful Jewish remnant are part of the Church and citizens of the Kingdom of God, a heavenly kingdom. There is only one Kingdom that Christ is the Head of as Lord of lords and King of kings.

Ga 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Ga 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Ga 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Ga 3:29 And if ye [be] Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Does this not say that all believers are Abraham's seed? that I, a gentile, am a child of Abraham? Notice it says seed as in one whch is Christ. It is in Christ that is the important point to all of this. Believeing Jews are only in the kingdom because they are in Christ same as believeing Gentiles. If we are not in Christ there is no hope at all for any of us Jew or Gentile.

But Abraham's seed is an issue separate from who Israel is. In Galatians, Paul is not talking about who is or is not an Israelite. Paul is dealing a very bad heresy that amounted to telling the Galatians that they had to convert to the Jewish religion in addition to faith in Christ in order to enter the Kingdom of heaven. Paul's point was that in Christ they are Abraham's seed and as such are already a part of the Kingdom. Paul's argument was essentially that circumcision could not provide anything for them that they did not already have through Christ.

And the Israel of God is the spiritual Kingdom that Christ is the head of that includes all believers Jew and Gentile alike.

No. The Israel of God refers to the believing Jewish remnant. It is not a reference that you use synonomously with the church. Paul never spiritualizes "israel" to include the Gentiles. If he did, he would have spiritualize every other name by which Israel is called, and the Bible never does that.

If Israel were spiritualized to include Genties, then we would also expect the name "Jacob" to be applied to the church as well, as God uses "Jacob" and "Israel" interchangably. Jacob is never used in connection to the church. Jacob is also the federal head of the twelve tribes, and we do not EVER see the twelve tribes of Israel used as a spiritual metaphor for the church.

The Bible NEVER uses "church and "Israel" interchangably, either. In the NT, there is a radical separation between the church and Israel. "Israel of God" simply refers to "Israel" within Israel of Romans 9, which is the believing Jewish remenant.

For me I do not see a difference. The church and Israel are essentially the same.

No, in the NT they are radically different.

Israel is a TYPE of the Church. It is a physical representation of a Spiritual reality.

No, it is not a type of the church, not at all. The Bible never makes that connection. That is something you are making up.

[larryt]

There are many that I think I could ask right now but not to confuse the issue let us try to keep a discussion on just one aspect at a time. If we can keep this a discussion between us I would prefer that as too many people all with their own ideas on what you might think is not productive. Personally I am not going to respond to others as my time is valuable and I would like to keep this as civil as possible.

What in your thinking are we grafted into? The Nation of Israel? Christ? What?

Also if you would point to a definition of replacement theology I would appreciate it as I do not agree with the definition I referred to on the other thread.

If other people would like to comment Larry there is really no reason to stop them. This is a discussion thread open to anyone after all. But I see your point. There is no rule that states that one must reply to others comments. So… Here we go.

1. Let’s start at the beginning. How do we define a Covenant? What are the Covenants that God has established?

2. How do we define what is a promise? We know God fulfills but does God break His promises?

3. Replacement Theology: The concept that the Church (Body of Christ) has replaced Israel. There is a specific thread about this here where shiloh357 explains it a lot better I believe than I could:

Coming back to the beginning and your question on covenants and promises. I would like to know what you think I already know what shiloh thinks on this and if he can restrain himself and let you answer for yourself I would appreciate it.

Question: Are all, and I do mean all, the promises and covenants fulfilled in Jesus Christ? Yes or no will suffice.

Grace & Peace

LT

[GoldenEagle]

If other people would like to comment Larry there is really no reason to stop them. This is a discussion thread open to anyone after all. But I see your point. There is no rule that states that one must reply to others comments. So… Here we go.

1. Let’s start at the beginning. How do we define a Covenant? What are the Covenants that God has established?

2. How do we define what is a promise? We know God fulfills but does God break His promises?

3. Replacement Theology: The concept that the Church (Body of Christ) has replaced Israel. There is a specific thread about this here where shiloh357 explains it a lot better I believe than I could:

Coming back to the beginning and your question on covenants and promises. I would like to know what you think I already know what shiloh thinks on this and if he can restrain himself and let you answer for yourself I would appreciate it.

Question: Are all, and I do mean all, the promises and covenants fulfilled in Jesus Christ? Yes or no will suffice.

Grace & Peace

LT

I'm glad we revisited this LarryT. To answer the question in bold we need to know what we're talking about - terms must be defined. It seems apparent to me that I'm going to anwer my own questions... So what do I think? First what are Covenants?

The Three Covenants I will mention that are relevant to our discussion...

I. First what is a Biblical Covenant?

A Biblical Covenant is an agreement between God and humanity recorded in the text of the Bible.

II. Second what are the three primary Covenants in the Bible?

A. Abrahamic Covenant: – Gen. 12, 15, & 17 (New Covenant)

1. Who was it given to?

Exclusively to Abraham and his descendents through Jesse (Is. 11:1-2). All the families of the earth would be blessed by this covenant. (Gen. 12:3)

2. What was the promise?

God promised to Abraham a land, a great nation, a great name, and a blessing that would include all the families of the earth.

Gen. 12:1-3

Now the Lord had said to Abram:

“Get out of your country,

From your family

And from your father’s house,

To a land that I will show you.

² I will make you a great nation;

I will bless you

And make your name great;

And you shall be a blessing.

³ I will bless those who bless you,

And I will curse him who curses you;

And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

It is important to note that this covenant was unconditional. It is explained that Abraham was looking for a better, heavenly land who’s builder is God. (Heb 11:8-16) This seed was Jesus Christ. (Gal. 3:16)

3. To who or did/does the promise apply?

All of Abraham’s descendents and those adopted as children of Abraham into God’s family through the price paid at the cross Jesus Christ and His resurrection. (Gen. 17:17, Gal. 3:7, 26-29)

4. How long would it last?

It is an everlasting covenant. (Gen. 13:15) It is not replaced by any later covenant. (Gen. 17:17) It was to replace the Mosaic Covenant. (Heb. 8:13)

5. Who was the mediator between God and Mankind?

Jesus. (Gal. 3:7, 1 Tim. 2:5)

6. How does it work?

Again, this New Covenant could not be broken and was unconditional. The focus is on God’s grace and mercy. Make no mistake – salvation is absolutely free to mankind (John 3:16) but extremely costly to God (1 Jo. 4:9, Rom. 5:8 - His Son Jesus Christ’s sacrifice on the cross). Abraham accepted by faith God’s promise. So this covenant is based on faith in God’s promises. "Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.” (Gen. 15:6) Jesus Christ who was Messiah foretold (Gen. 12:3, Dan. 7:13, Is. 7:14, Is. 9:6) in the OT died for all people that all should no longer live for themselves but for God through Jesus Christ. (2 Cor. 5:14-15) God revealed that those who Believed in Jesus Christ would be grafted into the promise made to Israel. (Rom. 1:16) The Uncircumcised (Gentiles - (Eph 2: 11) are now a part of the Circumcision (God’s chosen people of promise - Israel) through Christ’s atonement sacrifice of blood (and his life) for our sins at the cross (Eph 2: 13).

Jesus didn’t abolish the law but instead to fulfill the law. When Christ gave the summary of the law (Matt. 22:36-40), Jesus didn't do away with it. Jesus said specifically that on all the rest of law and the prophets depend on the two great commandments (Love God, Love people). He got to the heart of the issue - motivation and inner transformation. (Rom. 12:2)

Matt. 5:17

Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

7. What is the sign of this covenant?

Circumcision was the outward sign of Israel (Gen. 17:10) but physical circumcision had to be matched with circumcision of the heart or the internal sign. (Deut. 30:6, Jer. 4:4) Christians lives are the testimony to God’s grace – a sweet aroma or fragrance of gratefulness to God. (2 Cor. 2:15) Jesus Christ’s sacrificial love is the standard. (Matt. 22:36-40 - Love God, Love people; John 15:13; 1 Cor. 13)

B. Mosaic Covenant: Exodus 19-24 (Old Covenant)

1. Who was it given to?

Moses and the children of Israel at Mt. Sinai. (Ex. 19:2)

2. What was the promise?

This covenant is a conditional (If Israel obeyed, then God would bless them) covenant.

“Then Moses went up to God, and the LORD called to him from the mountain and said, “This is what you are to say to the descendants of Jacob and what you are to tell the people of Israel: ‘You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself. 5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.” (Ex. 19:3-6)

3. To who does or did the promise apply?

This applied to the people of Israel. (Ex. 19:3-4)

4. How long would it last?

The Mosaic Covenant was a temporary, conditional covenant (Ex. 19:5-6), and was broken by Israel. The Mosaic Covenant was to end with the coming of the Messiah. This covenant was completed in and through Jesus Christ. (Lev 6:1-39, Deut. 28, Mal. 3:5.)

5. Who was the mediator between God and Mankind?

Moses. (Ex. 19:3-4) Moses says “We will do it all.” (Ex. 19:8)

6. How does it or did it work?

This Mosaic Covenant was to end with Christ. (Heb. 8:13) The focus is on God’s holiness (A consuming fire – Ex. 24:17) and mankind’s need of a true mediator in Messiah – Jesus Christ. Moses was the mediator between God and mankind. Israel was to obey all the law as set forth in the 10 commandments on tablets of stone. (Ex. 24:17) Moses was delayed so the people fell into idolatry by making a golden calf to worship. (Ex. 32:1-6) Moses broke the first tablets when he got mad at Israel for following after idols. (Ex. 32:19-20) Moses goes back up to Mt. Sinai so God can write His laws upon the tablets of stone. (Ex. 34:1-2)

The Mosaic covenant was ratified as Moses recounted the law, people said “we’ll obey,” built an alter, set up 12 pillars, sacrificed to God, the covenant was read, the people again say “we’ll obey,” Moses sprinkles blood on the book and the people, there was a Mosaic covenant meal, and then the people went up. (Ex. 24:3-8)

7. What is the sign of this covenant?

Circumcision was the outward sign of Israel. (Gen. 17:10) The Law of the 10 Commandments was the standard.

C. Covenant To Israel:

(See the first 3 posts to this thread. )

Your thoughts on the covenants? Did I miss something?

God bless,

GE

[GoldenEagle]

All:

I think a key distinction to make in this thread is everything exists for God. Not the other way around. The Church exists to bring honor to God. Israel exists to bring honor to God. Do you agree?

We are not the main character in God’s play of history, present, and future. God is the main character. Do you agree?

God bless,

GE

[GoldenEagle]

Israel is a TYPE of the Church. It is a physical representation of a Spiritual reality.

I don’t believe I understand this. Where is the Scriptural evidence for this? Isn’t the Church grafted into God’s promises to Israel?

The church and Israel are essentially the same... The Jews were chosen in whole for a purpose to bring forth the Messiah.

Where does the Bible say that the Church and Israel are essentially the same? I believe this is not true but if there's Biblical evidence to the contrary I would love to discuss it.

The Jews were chosen so God could make himself known among the nations – it’s all about God’s glory. Yes part of that plan is God’s restoration of humanity and adoption as heirs in Christ.

Larry I wonder if you plan on addressing Nebula’s request?

LarryT - The Land inheritance is not passed on to the Gentile-believers. If you disagree, please provide the Scripture which indicates such.

Also Larry where is the Biblical evidence the words “church” and “Israel” are used interchangeably?

The Bible NEVER uses "church and "Israel" interchangeably, either. In the NT, there is a radical separation between the church and Israel. "Israel of God" simply refers to "Israel" within Israel of Romans 9, which is the believing Jewish remnant.

God bless,

GE

[Guest shiloh357]

All:

I think a key distinction to make in this thread is everything exists for God. Not the other way around. The Church exists to bring honor to God. Israel exists to bring honor to God. Do you agree?

We are not the main character in God’s play of history, present, and future. God is the main character. Do you agree?

God bless,

GE

You are exactly right. Another problem may be due to misunderstanding what "chosen" means. Some people think chosen means "favorite." The use of chosen in regard to Israel means that they are selected to fulfill a purpose, namely to be a light to the world. They will fulfill that purpose before it's all over.

[Matthitjah]

All:

I think a key distinction to make in this thread is everything exists for God. Not the other way around. The Church exists to bring honor to God. Israel exists to bring honor to God. Do you agree?

We are not the main character in God’s play of history, present, and future. God is the main character. Do you agree?

God bless,

GE

Yes, and that's the problem with RT. The focus is on the Church.

[nebula]

All:

I think a key distinction to make in this thread is everything exists for God. Not the other way around. The Church exists to bring honor to God. Israel exists to bring honor to God. Do you agree?

We are not the main character in God’s play of history, present, and future. God is the main character. Do you agree?

God bless,

GE

Well spoken!!