The Marriage Covenant

[Lionroot]

Hello Arthur,

On this thread we have been speaking specifically about David's wives before Bathsheba. Considering you said:

...there never was a time...when Jehovah God SANCTIONED it. NEVER! 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Now Jehovah God says that he gave David his wives, and that if they had been to little he would have given him more.(2Samuel 12:8) So did David sin when he took the wives that God gave him?

Perhaps you could reconcile that for me.

Thanks and

God Bless,

Robert

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Mt

[nebula]

Yup - what I was afraid of . . . a polygomy advocate.

Nebula,

You have side stepped all issues in both of your replies. It is clear that you are not ready to give an answer. If you have a position that amounts to something more than schoolyard name calling I would love to hear it.

Where have I called you names?

I know not what your experiences are on message boards, but we get a lot of people advocating strange ideas floating through.

I found it odd that someone would bring up an old thread (no longer active) to bring up a highly controversial position.

I specifically stated: "First of all, just to be square . . . I hope you are not making this point as a means of promoting polygomy."

You didn't state then in your next response that you were not advocation polygamy, which got me concerned as to what your motives were here.

What was your motive for posting: "Well, the Bible is conspicuously silent in condemning polygamy, but in regard to David when did he screw up exactly?"

Why?

And why did you not respond to Botz and Yod as you did me?

Where is the Nebula who wrote:

So, what I thought was good theology five years ago, I now think is bad theology.

Now, I know that teachers have a heavy responsibility. Yet, they are still human and prone to mistakes and deceptions and misunderstandings like the rest of us.

OK . . . how long ago did I post that? How did you know about it? Where and how did you find this?

I am not trying to sidestep any issues . . . I am trying to assess the playing field, as it were.

When what we should be doing is throwing off the cultural standards of this world and adopting God's standard.

A man having multiple wives is God's standard?

Did the LORD ever say that anywere?

What did Jesus say about marriage?

Why are bishops and deacons forbidden from having more than one wife (the verses that Botz quoted)?

Serously, you rresponses have left me feeling very, very uncomfortable.

[Botz]

Nebula...

And why did you not respond to Botz and Yod as you did me

?

Yeah...come and pick on me I'm ready for ya.

[Lionroot]

Greetings Dr.

Thanks for your thoughtful response. I hope that you will continue to be so scripturally centered.

Mt 19:8

He said unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts allowed you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

I am sure that you realise this is a scripture about divorce, not polygamy. It is interesting to note that it is Jesus' rebuttal of contemporary tradition that said a man could divorce for any reason. He in fact restored adultery only divorces.

Men who practiced this always ended up in trouble.

Do you mean to say that single, and monogamous men never ended up in trouble? Should I spend time listing and recounting men that got in trouble who were never polygamous? Adam to Judas to Ananias. Would that really prove anything about their marital status?

God is Graceful. He desires a man to who is Married to be faithful to the Bride of his youth.

I agree with that. Again, divorce is another issue entirely.

Just like Jesus is faithful to His Bride.

As God has always been faithful to his brides, but they have not always been faithful to him have they?

Ezekiel 23

Two Adulterous Sisters

1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, there were two women, daughters of the same mother. 3 They became prostitutes in Egypt, engaging in prostitution from their youth. In that land their breasts were fondled and their virgin bosoms caressed. 4 The older was named Oholah, and her sister was Oholibah. They were mine and gave birth to sons and daughters. Oholah is Samaria, and Oholibah is Jerusalem.

Read this chapter it is excellent. Anyway, God claims two brides for himself. While I agree this is highly metaphorical, do you really think that God would illustrate something by modeling a sin?

It is clear that Biblically that polygamy is not a sin, and it is not the problem. In every case another "charged" sin is involved. Am I recommending that all you guys run out and get yourselves into such relationship? No way. I am saying that it is important to read the scriptures in the light of the truth, not in the light of modern culture. I myself am in a 17 year strong monogamous marriage, and I highly recommend it. Amen.

God Bless,

Robert

P.S. I will address the other responses that came in last night after church. Hey do you guys sleep?

Edited March 13, 2005 by Lionroot

[Guest shiloh357]

Now Lionroot, I will answer your questions, but I must begin by saying that I will answer them in light of God's perfect plan for marriage.

God's perfect Will for marriage is that ONE man and ONE woman fall in love and marry, and they stay married until they die. That is God's perfect plan. So, any discussion of polygamy must start from that point, and must be examined in the light of God's perfect Will. Polygamy is never presented in Scripture as God's ideal. He did not ordain it.

Polygamy is not the ideal as can be seen in the following:

[*] God made only one wife for Adam thus setting the precedent for the human race.

[*]Polygamy is first mentioned in connection with the wicked Cainite society (Gen. 4:23)

[*]God forbade the kings of Israel from taking multiple wives:

[nebula]

I am actually making the point because it illustrates the confusion people have reconciling what they read in the word with their own culture. We naturally apply our own cultural standards when reading, which causes missunderstandings, and no other topic illustrates this more clearly. When what we should be doing is throwing off the cultural standards of this world and adopting God's standard. Is that not what God instructed the Israelites as he took them out of Egypt?

You must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices. You must obey my laws and be careful to follow my decrees. I am the LORD your God

BTW - although I would agree that we do need to go by God's standards and not those of the world around us, I highly disagree that polygamy is one of God's standards!

It is cruel to the wives.

It is cruel to the children.

And men may get twice the "pleasure," but they also get twice the "honey-do" lists, twice the emotional-swings, twice the tension and all of that.

[Lionroot]

Nebula,

Thanks for responding so fully. I will do what I can to answer you completely.

Where have I called you names?

Clearly you sought to discredit my opinion with an emotional tactic. As I said you avoided the issues, and as I have pointed out elsewhere, you painted me with a broad brush. I am sure it was unintentional. I certainly forgive the trespass, even if it was only perceived by me and unintended. Let us move on...

What was your motive for posting: "Well, the Bible is conspicuously silent in condemning polygamy, but in regard to David when did he screw up exactly?" 

It was a response to a posting, where Budman said David screwed up. I was hoping that he might expound on his answer. Of course I am not afraid to discuss scripture with anyone.

And why did you not respond to Botz and Yod as you did me?

Initially you had the more relevant, interesting, and scriptural posts. I did not want to rehash what I had already gone over with you. I see now that Botz wants his own response. I will be happy to reply.

OK . . . how long ago did I post that?  How did you know about it?  Where and how did you find this? 

The answers in order 1) dunno 2) its public domain 3) Worthyboards search engine

When what we should be doing is throwing off the cultural standards of this world and adopting God's standard.

A man having multiple wives is God's standard?

This was a statement about what our attitudes toward God's standard in general. For example we should love our neighbor, because that is God's standard. You have applied it here specifically. I am certainly not saying that all men should be, anymore than all men should be celebant, as Paul wanted. Let me ask you something, how many of God's Patriarchs were polygamous? What percentage?

What did Jesus say about marriage?

Matthew 19:8-9 I am curious are you equally against the practice of serial marriage? Do you condemn it with same veracity that you apply to the patriarchs?

Serously, you rresponses have left me feeling very, very uncomfortable.

Well, I sincerely apologize if I have made you feel uncomfortable in anyway. That was never my intention. Here is the reality, if I am wrong about any issue that I keep to myself, I will never see if it holds up under challenge. The Psalmist said Iron sharpens Iron.

God Bless,

Robert

[Guest shiloh357]

When what we should be doing is throwing off the cultural standards of this world and adopting God's standard.

A man having multiple wives is God's standard?

This was a statement about what our attitudes toward God's standard in general. For example we should love our neighbor, because that is God's standard. You have applied it here specifically. I am certainly not saying that all men should be, anymore than all men should be celebant, as Paul wanted. Let me ask you something, how many of God's Patriarchs were polygamous? What percentage?

Doesn't matter. We do not base right and wrong on what the Patriarchs did or did not do. We base it on what God says. God did not set a precedent, for polygamy and did not ordain it. It is not his best. God did not put his stamp of apporoval any Polygamy at any time.

[Lionroot]

Hey Botz,

I did not mean to slight you at all. Your points are valid, but they did not specifically address the issue of Davids wives, or the limitation of the King of Israel. Since the issue has been somewhat widened, your statements have become more relevant. Otherwise I did not have much to disagree with., but perhaps I can expand on your threads.

I don't think polygamy was inherently wrong in those days

We agree.

it is just that much of our society has changed and developed and it is no longer acceptable practice

We agree, but as Christians we do not seek to please men, and there cultural practices. Jesus spent not a little time refuting the traditions of his day, and we should be equally vigilant against traditions that have no foundation in the word.

As for 1Tim3:2&12 As you pointed out, a casual reading suggest that there were members that could not be in leadership positions because they were polygamous. Not that they did anything wrong, but they might be a little busy.

If your interested though there is another possibility that suggests they cannot be divorced. It lies in the Greek word translated "one". What is the word? and what other words is it translated as? I cannot do all the work for you now.

Let me just close with a couple of notes of interest. I have read at least two articles that said some early Christians practiced polygamy through the first 100 years. About 5 years ago or so, the 1000 year old Jewish ban on polygamy was lifted. This ban was put in place to appease the Roman Christians that were persecuting them. If your interested I will look for sources for these fact.

I hope that meets your needs.

God Bless,

Robert

Edited March 14, 2005 by Lionroot