Why I am a Trinitarian

[CWJ]

bronto....you read a "cop-out" in my post that is not there.

I never think we should not seek the Lord and His mystery, neither does scripture.  I do not think that the verse I used was a disuasion to seek God's mystery, only a statement of His vastness and infinite existance.

After your "bragging" I felt it was a proper verse.

I say what I said about not fully understanding to head off any controversy, (oneness vs. trinity)

Although I have always thought of myself as "trinity" in belief, I wonder if oneness and trinity are just an argument in diction?

I'm not really fully informed on the "oneness" doctrines.

BlindS...if you are "oneness", then so far I have found no argument but agreement with your post. I think with most of it anyway, without re-reading.

It is just a fact that can only give glory to Him that IS glory!

Peace to all, Carl   ::

[Guest Michael]

Hi all,

Greetings from a new guy here! The Oneness doctrine asserts two basic truths.  

1. There is ONLY ONE GOD.

2. Jesus is God.

Upon this the doctrine stands. Classic Trinitarian doctrine asserts there are 3 co equal, co eternal persons in the deity each one God in his own right.

To me the Oneness position has a more firm base in scripture.

Both Old and New Testament writers stress the Oneness of God and nothing else. After all we never see him called the Holy 3 of Israel but plenty of times the Holy ONE of Israel!

                                                     peace, michael

[BlindSeeker]

Greetings Michael,  and welcome to Worthy Land.

:t3:

[Guest Michael]

It has been rightly said by some we cannot know everything about God. However there is something he wants us both to know and understand.

10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

11 I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.

Isaiah 43:10

If Father and Son are BOTH God and seperate and distinct in being that PRESUMES more than one. Certainly the Trinitarian does not confess to believe in more than one God but the doctrine itself does not allow for ONLY one to be God.

If Jesus is God and he is NOT the ONLY GOD there must be another who is ALSO GOD.

I believe Isaiah 9:6 resolves the issue.

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, the everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

The son who is given is ALSO the Everlasting Father. This is the doctrine of Christ. His name (Jesus) shall be called Everlasting Father. Every time we do it we are fulfilling this prophecy!

Notice the prophecy says his name will be called Eternal Father but not Eternal Son. Or is he both the Eternal Father AND the Eternal Son?

The Spirit laid out the mystery of Christ in several layers of truth. On one level Jesus is the Son of God. On another level he is the Father. Being able to accept all truth that is given is the only way tocome to the right conclusion.  peace, michael

[CWJ]

I agree Michael with what you've posted.  Except....

God is Spirit....so...the Holy Spirit is what?

John 4:24.."God is a Spirit:  and they that worship Him must worship him in Spirit and truth."

John 14:17..."Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive,..."

John 14:26.."But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you of all things, and bring all things to your rememberance, whatsoever I have said to you."

The Holy Ghost is a "he"......Jesus is a "he".....God is a "he" also.  Looks a lot like three in John 4:26.

The Father sends the Holy Ghost.

He comes in Jesus' name.

Jesus says in verse18 " I will not leave you comfortless, I will come to you"

So...Jesus says in essence he is the Holy ghost(verse 18). God sends the Holy Ghost after Jesus goes to sit w/the Father.  God stays with Jesus in heaven.

Looks like 1John 5:7 has some real confirming scriptures.

Looks like I just found some other scripture pointing to the Trinity.

I love it when I have to study to show myself approved unto God!

[Guest Michael]

Hi CWJ,

Lets take a closer look.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

So where in the gospels are we told the disciples KNEW the Holy Spirit and were dwelling with him? Hmmm?

Actually Jesus was the one they knew and were dwelling with.

Jesus was with them but would be in them. He says I WILL COME TO YOU. The Holy Spirit would be CHRIST IN YOU the hope of glory!

He says HE will not leave them comfortless. Greek word is ORPHANS. So there we see Jesus not only as the Holy Spirit but if he will not leave them as ORPHANS by his coming to them he is ALSO revealed as  their Father.

Jesus is Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Yes 1 John 5:7 is a great scripture.

Jesus teachings in John 14-16 concerning the Father, Himself, and the Spirit were given in PROVERBS to reinforce the MYSTERY concerning who he was.

25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.   John 16:25

Paul reinterates later:

2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;   Col. 2:2

                                              peace, mike

[Guest Michael]

Something to think about.

Matthew 10:19-20.But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for  it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.  For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

Mark 13:11.But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

If the Father and the Holy Ghost are separate and distinct persons which inspired writer is correct?  Matthew tells us the Spirit of the Father will speak, but Mark says it will be the Holy Ghost.  

Luke 21:14-15.Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:  For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

And now to add fuel to the fire Luke records the same discourse by saying it is Yashua who will do the speaking!  Is it not very likely they were all three inspired to write what they wrote because THESE THREE ARE ONE?

Romans 6:4.Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of THE FATHER, even so we also should walk in the newness of life.

1 Peter 3:18.For Christ also hath suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by THE SPIRIT

As concerning the resurrection we see the apostle Paul states Christ was raised from the dead by the Father.  Then Peter says he was raised (or quickened) by the Holy Ghost.  Did it take two separate and distinct persons who are both God to raise one man from the dead?  

John 2:18-21.Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?  Jesus answered and said unto to them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I WILL RAISE IT UP.  Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?  But he spake of the temple of his body.

Now we have the ASTOUNDING statement by Yashua that it is HE HIMSELF who will resurrect HIMSELF!  Saints of God, It would not take three divine persons to raise ONE MAN from the dead!  No doubt the Holy Spirit wants us to see that these three are one and the SAME SPIRIT.

1 Corinthians 12:4-6.Now there are diversities of gifts, but the SAME SPIRIT,  And there differences of administrations, but the SAME LORD.  And there are diversities of operations, but it is the SAME GOD which worketh all  in all.

So who is working the gifts in the believer?  Verse 4 says the SAME SPIRIT.  Verse 5 says the SAME LORD.  Verse 6 says the SAME GOD.  

1 Corinthians 12:11.But all these worketh that ONE AND THE SELFSAME SPIRIT, dividing to every man severally as HE WILL.

So evidently the same Lord, the same Spirit and same God is a HE.  He is one and the SELFSAME SPIRIT.  God never says he is three, but always that he is ONE!

Ephesians 4:4-6.There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;  One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.  

The apostle Paul knew only one Lord.  Who was he?  

Acts 9:5.And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I AM JESUS whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

The ONLY LORD Paul knew was Jesus .  

The apostle Paul knew only one Spirit. Who was he?

2 Corinthians 3:16-17.Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away.  Now THE LORD IS THAT SPIRIT: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

So to Paul Jesus was the only Lord.  And now the same man writing under inspiration says, THE LORD IS THAT SPIRIT!  Jesus himself is ONE SPIRIT Paul knew.  

Paul knew only one who was both God and Father.  Who as he?

Isaiah 9:6.For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Now we see the all powerful truth that it is THE SON (Jesus) who is both THE MIGHTY GOD  THE EVERLASTING FATHER!  So if Jesus is both God and Father, then he is the ONLY GOD AND FATHER.  Because the apostle Paul said there is ONLY ONE who is both God and Father.    peace, mike

[CWJ]

Amen to that.

[JohnS]

Jesus is Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Exactly. Trinity.

[BlindSeeker]

Just when did the Father become a father? and when did the Son become a/the Son? For fathership requires fathering, as well as being a son requires being fathered.

When did all this happen?