Do we really go to heaven just as soon as we die?

[Guest shiloh357]

Besides, if everybody goes to heaven as soon as they die and all of the graves are empty, Who will Jesus raise from the grave if the graves are empty?

He is raising their bodies from the grave, not their spirits. So their graves are not empty as their bodies remain in the ground. Where did you get the idea that the graves are empty if everyone goes to heaven when they die?

You are operating from the fallacy that earlier doctrines mean more accurate. There is a erroneous notion among some that the closer you get to the ancient apostles and to the early church, the closer you get to the original "correct" theology or doctrinal views that is simply not true. Heresies abounded in the early church and this is recorded among the early church historians. You really cannot turn to the early church fathers for correct doctrine, as they held to many heresies and persecuted the Jews as well.

Jesus, in dealing with the Saducees on the issue of the after life quotes from Exodus 3 where God told Moses "I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob." He did not say, "I WAS the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, meaning that God is the God of the living. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were still alive according to Jesus, proving that their spirits were not in the grave but were alive and animate. Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus and talked with Jesus on the Mount of Tranfiguration, meaning that they were still alive and their spirits were not in their graves.

Show me some scripture to back that idea up. Show me some scripture that says that the body goes to heaven and the spirit stays in the grave. Because scripture tells us that the body turns back to the dust where it came from and the spirit goes back to God where it came from. Which is the opposite of what you are saying.

Uh, Massorite.... Try re-reading what I said. I said that the body stays in the ground. At the resurrection, our bodies will be raised and reunited with our spirits which have gone to be with the Lord. The spirit doesn't stay in the ground when we die. Jesus was talking with Elijah and Moses at the Mount of Transfiguration. Their bodies were stil in the ground, but their spirits were not.

Jesus proved to the Sadducees that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were still alive even though their bodies had turned to to dust.

In Jesus' parable of the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man's spirit was in hell and Lazarus' spirit was in Abraham's bosom while their bodies remained in the ground.

You appear to be advancing the false doctrine of soul sleep. When the Bible refers to deceased people who "sleep," it is using "sleep" as a metaphor for death. It does not mean that they are literally "asleep."

The body never gets reunited with the soul because no flesh shall inter into heaven. We will be like Jesus was with a glorified body that could eat fish and walk through walls. His body had enough substance to touch but it wasn't flesh.

The body of Jesus that went into the tomb is the same body that came out of the tomb albeit in a glorified state. Jesus retained in wounds in his hands, feet and the spear wound in his side. Jesus is God and also happens to be a resurrected Jewish man.

[Tim7]

The reason the thief went to paradise is because Jesus hadnt yet ascended to heaven to cleanse heaven with his blood to make it clean again so people can enter in to heaven. When Jesus died He descended into paradise to preach to every soul that died but lived accordingly to the law to the best they knew how till Jesus could come and fulfill the law and die once for all mankind. Jesus led the people in paradise into heaven to fulfill the prophecy of how hell enlarged itself, Paradise is now hell a place of torment for those that reject the presence of God and the price Jesus paid for them on the cross. We as Christians enter into heaven because Jesus made the way, He is the door to heaven. I understand its hard to understand these things because they are only spiritually discerned, we cant figure them out in our mind it can only be explained by the Spirit and faith only!

[GoldenEagle]

The reason the thief went to paradise is because Jesus hadnt yet ascended to heaven to cleanse heaven with his blood to make it clean again so people can enter in to heaven. When Jesus died He descended into paradise to preach to every soul that died but lived accordingly to the law to the best they knew how till Jesus could come and fulfill the law and die once for all mankind. Jesus led the people in paradise into heaven to fulfill the prophecy of how hell enlarged itself, Paradise is now hell a place of torment for those that reject the presence of God and the price Jesus paid for them on the cross. We as Christians enter into heaven because Jesus made the way, He is the door to heaven. I understand its hard to understand these things because they are only spiritually discerned, we cant figure them out in our mind it can only be explained by the Spirit and faith only!

Interesting thoughts Tim7 . Where is this found in the Bible? Opinions are good. God's Word is better would you agree?

God bless,

GE

[Guest shiloh357]

The reason the thief went to paradise is because Jesus hadnt yet ascended to heaven to cleanse heaven with his blood to make it clean again so people can enter in to heaven.

Where in the Bible does it say that heaven needed cleansing???

[Tim7]

Thanks all I will post the scriptures in a little bit! Thanks for pointing that out to me! Blessings Tim

[Bible_Gazer]

I think Stephen went to heaven and has a new body.

Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

2Cor.5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

Show me some scripture that say "Steven went to heaven" We must remember that Jesus is our example and all that happened to him will happen to us which means that we will first decend into the lower reaches of the earth before we are raised from the grave. What did Jesus say to the thief on the cross? He said "this day you shall be with me in paradise" now we all know that Jesus first decended and since the thief went with Christ that very death which is the day of His death, the thief went with Christ into Paradise.

Desiring "to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: IS A LONG WAYS FROM BEING CLOTHED WITH OUR HEAVENLY CLOTHING.

Well read this again

What did Stephen see before being stoned ? - Jesus

Was this not Jesus coming for him ? - sure

Stephen was a educated man in the Gospel and asked Jesus to come and get him he knew his body was going to die.

So the flesh died and Stephen moved out a live spirit and went to heaven and not to be naked he got an heavenly body.

Why would you want to raise a dead body when you are already alive in heaven ?

God has to speak a body back into existence so that ____________________________ ? what purpose ?

If the body is going to be raised from the grave and then changed into a heavenly body anyway,

why come back down here and be dead again and be resurrected from out of the ground, just get it while you are already up there.

[allofgrace]

I think Stephen went to heaven and has a new body.

Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

2Cor.5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

Show me some scripture that say "Steven went to heaven" We must remember that Jesus is our example and all that happened to him will happen to us which means that we will first decend into the lower reaches of the earth before we are raised from the grave. What did Jesus say to the thief on the cross? He said "this day you shall be with me in paradise" now we all know that Jesus first decended and since the thief went with Christ that very death which is the day of His death, the thief went with Christ into Paradise.

Desiring "to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: IS A LONG WAYS FROM BEING CLOTHED WITH OUR HEAVENLY CLOTHING.

Well read this again

What did Stephen see before being stoned ? - Jesus

Was this not Jesus coming for him ? - sure

Stephen was a educated man in the Gospel and asked Jesus to come and get him he knew his body was going to die.

So the flesh died and Stephen moved out a live spirit and went to heaven and not to be naked he got an heavenly body.

Why would you want to raise a dead body when you are already alive in heaven ?

God has to speak a body back into existence so that ____________________________ ? what purpose ?

If the body is going to be raised from the grave and then changed into a heavenly body anyway,

why come back down here and be dead again and be resurrected from out of the ground, just get it while you are already up there.

I think you are right about Stephen going to be with the Lord, but where you got the idea that he got a new body already is not in the scriptures. And why would he be naked, its his spirit that went to heaven. In Rev 6:11 and 7:9 they were wearing a white rob it says. New bodies are not given until the resurrection of the bodies as Paul talks about in 1 Cor 15. The purpose is because that is how God said it would happen.

[Tim7]

to cleanse heaven with his blood to make it clean again so people can enter in to heaven

Hbr 9:11 NASB - But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;

Hbr 9:12 NASB - and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

Hebrews 9:19-25 - For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people,

- saying, "THIS IS THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WHICH GOD COMMANDED YOU."

- And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry with the blood.

- And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

- Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

- For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;

- nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own.

how hell enlarged itself

Isa 5:14 KJV - Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.

He is the door to heaven

Jhn 10:7 KJV - Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

Jhn 10:9 KJV - I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

[Tim7]

Eph 4:8-10 KJV - Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Hbr 12:2 KJV - Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

1Peter 3: 18-22 KJV For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Act 1:9-11 KJV - And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

[Guest shiloh357]

- Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

First of all, it doesn't say that Heaven needed to be cleansed. It is referring to certain objects that serve as patterns for their earthly counterparts. There is nothing impure or corrupt in heaven, so there is nothing in heaven that needs actual purfication or cleansing.

He is speaking of the application of the blood of Jesus in terms that were applied to the earthly counterparts, which are types of what is heaven. The writer of Hebrews is speaking of the heavenly patterns in terms that suit the earthly types, but there is no need or warrant to push the expressions in all their details. No actual cleansing was needed for heaven to let people go there.

If anything it was people who need to purified to enter heaven. It is man who needs cleansing not heaven. Sorry but your exegesis is incorrect.