Everlasting Covenant

[PGA]

In Genesis 17: 6-8, and in several other places of the Bible, God makes a everlasting covenant, here with Abraham to be his and his seed's God for ever. In Hebrew 8:6-13 Paul, inspired by God, repeats the words of the prophet Jeremiah that He intends to make a new covenant, and then actually carried it out, because the first was not faultless.

To me there seems to be problem in that the first covenant was not at all everlasting as is written God has promised. And I also wonder why God should make a covenant in the first place that is not faultless.

Maybe someone can give me some insights into this issue (and maybe the problem can be solved easily).

Hi Hippias,

I've being pursuing this issue of covenant for some time now. I've read all the comments on this particular thread to date and I see lots of validity in your questions and thoughts concerning covenant and the nation of Israel. I thought GoldenEagle was spot on in his explanation with his first post to you. I also think that as Christians today we forget the significance of covenant and the primary audience of address of these epistles/letters and gospels. As such we try to project what was prophesied back then to fit into our situation today.

The book of Hebrews is a contrast in covenants revealing/explaining the typology between the old and new. As a matter of fact the whole New Covenant is a revelation of the better covenant as well as God's warning to Israel of old that He was going to bring judgment and shaken their (the Jewish) heaven and earth (Hebrews 12:25-29). The end of their age of covenant was coming. God was about to issue a certificate of divorce to Old Covenant Israel for not keeping their end of the covenant. We see the theme of the marriage feast (a marriage is also a covenant between two parties) throughout the New Covenant, of the Bride, the faithful bride being made ready. We also see those invited to the wedding banquet (the Jews) did not come in and notice in the parable in Matthew 22 that after they killed His faithful servants (which was the case with the Jewish persecution of the early Christians during the 1st century, of which Paul himself was a participant before God had mercy upon him) that He sent His army and their city was destroyed - judgment (vs. 7; Luke 21:20-24).

I believe that Bride is the New Israel of God who is going to a better country, a better city, a better land because just as Moses was the mediator of that Covenant with Israel of old, so Christ is the Mediator of this new covenant with the Israel of new (which includes the faithful of the old, the remnant, and also all who would/will believe through the message). Moses was faithful in all God's house, but Jesus is more worthy of honor than Moses because Jesus is faithful as a Son over God's house. The old house, the old temple, the old Jerusalem, the old covenant was about to be left to them desolate (Matthew 23:38). Jesus was bringing His people into a new house, a new tabernacle, a new Jerusalem.

Just as Joshua brought the Israel of old into their Promised Land, so Christ Jesus/Joshua of the New Covenant was about to bring the true Israel/people of God into their promised land - the heavenly country, heavenly Jerusalem (Hebrews 11:16; 2 Tim. 4:18; Phil. 3:20).

Mount Sinai is where Moses received the one covenant as mediator; Mount Zion, the heavenly Jerusalem, is where Jesus has Received the New Covenant from God and Jesus as the better Mediator. He went into heaven itself. The one mountain is physical, the other spiritual.

Whereas the first Adam brought spiritual death into the world that resulted in condemnation so the Second Adam brought spiritual life - reconciliation with God; the first Adam became a living being, the second a life giving Spirit; the first Adam was of the dust of the earth, the second the Man from heaven (1 Cor. 15:45-50; Romans 5). In the one covenant with the first Adam we have a conditional covenant that was not kept, because Adam partook of the fruit. In the other we have an eternal covenant that was fully met in Christ Jesus because He kept it in every way. In the one covenant the law was added to make us more aware of our trespasses, in the other grace was added to bring us to eternal life in the Son, the Second Adam.

Israel of old never entered God's rest because of disobedience, whereas the New Israel has entered with the obedience of Christ. That rest was never fulfilled in the old covenant age (Matthew 11:28-29). You see the comparisons and contrasts in Hebrews chapters 3-4, between the rests, and this author is speaking to Hebrew Christians and warning them (in A.D. 63 or so again as well as for those outside of Jesus Christ today and in every generation) that the generation that rebelled in the desert never entered the rest so the warning also goes out to them during the first century of not entering that rest. Jesus repeated over and over again that 'this generation' that He was speaking to while living on earth was about to be judged (Matthew 23:29-38; 24:34 and numerous other places). The author of Hebrews places the generation that died in the desert as a generation with a life span of 40 years. I find it significant that from the death of Jesus until the destruction of Jerusalem is approximately 40 years and here is this author near the end of that forty years during the first century warning them again not to harden their hearts. In the context of Hebrews 10-12 it is very apparent that the author is addressing these Jewish professors of Christ as Lord not to turn back to what is old and obsolete and will soon perish (Hebrews 8:13; Hebrews 10:25-39).

We see that in the Mosaic covenant the high priest entering the tabernacle once a year in order to make atonement for the people. In A.D. 70 their is no more temple in which to make atonement for the people and there is no more priesthood and no more sacrificial system. Jesus is of a better priesthood, has a better sacrifice - one that does not need to be offered over and over again because His sacrifice that He brought before the throne of God in the true tabernacle is sufficient, just as His life and obedience is sufficient.

Over and over again in the NT we see the contrast between the old and new. Moses was given the task of bringing the twelve tribes into the Promised Land - something that he did not accomplish. That task was left to Joshua. Jesus is given the task of bringing the twelve disciples (minus Judas and plus Paul) into the new Promised Land because they represent the New Israel of the New Covenant - the witness of twelve. In Revelation we see His disciples seated along with the twelve tribes. The list of contrasts between the new and the old is so extensive we could go on and on in noting these differences. But I think you summation is correct. Jesus came to judge old covenant Israel as could be noted in hundreds of passages in the NT and stems back to the OT in Deut. 32. and beyond.

Deuteronomy 32:4-5

New International Version (NIV)

⁴ He is the Rock, his works are perfect,

and all his ways are just.

A faithful God who does no wrong,

upright and just is he.

⁵ They are corrupt and not his children;

to their shame they are a warped and crooked generation.

Deuteronomy 32:20

New International Version (NIV)

²⁰ “I will hide my face from them,” he said,

“and see what their end will be;

for they are a perverse generation,

children who are unfaithful.

Deuteronomy 32:43

New International Version (NIV)

⁴³ Rejoice, you nations, with his people,^[a][b]

for he will avenge the blood of his servants;

he will take vengeance on his enemies

and make atonement for his land and people.

Jesus said the very same thing of the generation He came to. He called them perverse and accused them of being guilty of all the innocent blood shed on the earth. Now God was about to act upon these covenant breakers.

Notice a common theme throughout the NT is this stiff-necked people - Old Covenant Israel. Jesus has made atonement for His people in bringing them salvation and punished the disobedient in their unbelief when He bought judgment upon them in A.D. 70.

So much more can be said.

Peter

[PGA]

Hi Viole,

How are you?

Did you ask God to be saved while you were not believing in God? -Viole

I think one comes to the realization that God's word is true by the grace of His Spirit. You hear Him speak to you through your conscience when you read the Bible. Some never do because their conscience will not be receptive. They refuse because they perceive they are wiser than God. You either turn to Him and ask for mercy from Him or believe that you are your own god, the maker/determiner of what is right and wrong, however you wish to define that right and wrong to be - each believing in their own merit and the significance of their minds as their ultimate authority in determining anything. You either think that your merit, however you choose to define what that may be, is sufficient or you look to the merit of someone else who is greater than you and is worthy of merit - Someone who claims to be that greatest being and Someone who confirms it by what He says.

As we have discussed previously on other threads that in order for there to be good there must be a standard that is universal and objective, outside ourselves, otherwise all you have is the mighty enforcing their 'right.' Anything in such a scenario goes or can happen, and we witness it every day in the world as we see someone acting on their particular brand of right and might as the standard and object to others who equally adamantly claim the same thing of their standard. In such a world why do you get so upset? Nothing ultimately matters. Why call it good? Why live as if something does matter? Why live?

We live because we do believe that things ultimately matter.

Peter

[Guest]

Did you ask God to be saved while you were not believing in God?

Wink?

Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. Acts 17:22-23

Oh Yeah

God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; Acts 17:24-26

You Knew

That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Acts 17:27-30

Huh

Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. Acts 17:31

~

Comfy Are We?

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. John 3:18-20

~

Believe

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:160

And Be Blessed Beloved

He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony. He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. John 3:31-33

Love, Joe

[Willa]

I am confused. l thouht that the Jews were the bride of the Father. wasnt it Hosea who God told to take a harlot for a wife and to take Her

back many times and restore her? And that in the day of Christ that all believers in Christ would be His bride. Yet Gods promises to te JewS

was also concerning the land. All of Israel is yet to be saved and the full boundaries of the Holy Land ar yet to be realized.

We live in such exciting times as the prophecies are being fulfilled in the newspapers

[PGA]

I am confused. l thouht that the Jews were the bride of the Father. wasnt it Hosea who God told to take a harlot for a wife and to take Her

back many times and restore her? And that in the day of Christ that all believers in Christ would be His bride. Yet Gods promises to te JewS

was also concerning the land. All of Israel is yet to be saved and the full boundaries of the Holy Land ar yet to be realized.

We live in such exciting times as the prophecies are being fulfilled in the newspapers

Hi Willamina,

Thank you for replying. You bring up some interesting points. I'm working this weekend but I want to give your concern justice so my reply will probably be shortly after Christmas. Just a couple of quick comments/questions in the mean time.

John 1:11-12

New International Version (NIV)

¹¹ He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. ¹² Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

Who did Jesus come to or should I rather say how many times did He reveal that He came to the lost sheep of Israel? What was the purpose of His coming, I'm talking in addition from Him bringing salvation to His people in the everlasting and better covenant that is (Matthew 1:21)?

Matthew 1:21

New International Version (NIV)

²¹ She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus,^[a] because he will save his people from their sins.”

Footnotes:

1. Matthew 1:21 Jesus is the Greek form of Joshua, which means the Lord saves.
   

In 'the day of Christ' do all believers include both Jews and Gentiles, because if the Jews are married to the Father then how can Jesus take them as His bride unless God had issues them a certificate of divorce for their harlotry?

As for the full boundaries of Israel having not yet being realize, I believe Scripture says they have. Since I don't have time to look up the Scriptural verse now I'll make it a point of including it in my next post to you.

Peter

[Guest]

As for the full boundaries of Israel having not yet being realize, I believe Scripture says they have.

Full Boundaries?

In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: Genesis 15:18

Really?

At the same time, saith the LORD, will I be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be my people. Thus saith the LORD, The people which were left of the sword found grace in the wilderness; even Israel, when I went to cause him to rest.

The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

Again I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel: thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets, and shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry. Thou shalt yet plant vines upon the mountains of Samaria: the planters shall plant, and shall eat them as common things.

For there shall be a day, that the watchmen upon the mount Ephraim shall cry, Arise ye, and let us go up to Zion unto the LORD our God.

For thus saith the LORD; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O LORD, save thy people, the remnant of Israel.

Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither. They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock. For the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he.

Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, and shall flow together to the goodness of the LORD, for wheat, and for wine, and for oil, and for the young of the flock and of the herd: and their soul shall be as a watered garden; and they shall not sorrow any more at all. Then shall the virgin rejoice in the dance, both young men and old together: for I will turn their mourning into joy, and will comfort them, and make them rejoice from their sorrow.

And I will satiate the soul of the priests with fatness, and my people shall be satisfied with my goodness, saith the LORD. Jeremiah 31:1-14

[Guest]

Who did Jesus come to or should I rather say how many times did He reveal that He came to the lost sheep of Israel? What was the purpose of His coming,

One

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. Romans 11:25-27

More

And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;

The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;

All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart. Zechariah 12:9-14

Time

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. Revelation 1:7

[OneLight]

In 'the day of Christ' do all believers include both Jews and Gentiles, because if the Jews are married to the Father then how can Jesus take them as His bride unless God had issues them a certificate of divorce for their harlotry?

Peter

Hi Peter,

This statement puzzles me If the Jews are married to God, does that not also include Christ? A bride to God is a bride to God, unless you do not believe Jesus is God???

[PGA]

In 'the day of Christ' do all believers include both Jews and Gentiles, because if the Jews are married to the Father then how can Jesus take them as His bride unless God had issues them a certificate of divorce for their harlotry?

Peter

Hi Peter,

This statement puzzles me If the Jews are married to God, does that not also include Christ? A bride to God is a bride to God, unless you do not believe Jesus is God???

Hi OneLight,

Yes, I believe the Son of God, who became known and was called Jesus when He took on humanity, is God. I was just commenting on the post by Williamine in which she made the distinction that it was the Father who was married to this people in the OT. The point is unless God had given His bride in the OT a divorce then how could Jesus marry someone that was already married because the bride in the NT wedding includes both Jews and Gentiles - does it not? Is she saying that God has more than one wife? The point I was leading into was that God did divorce old covenant Israel and the type and picture presented in Hosea of Israel's reconciliation is a picture of the church, the new Israel of God, the faithful bride, not OT Israel.

l thouht that the Jews were the bride of the Father. wasnt it Hosea who God told to take a harlot for a wife and to take Her

back many times and restore her? -Williamina

The Jews were restored in Christ, that is the remnant was. All Israel was saved at the cross - by all I mean both the Northern kingdom (Israel) and the southern kingdom (Judah). The faithful remnant from both was restored to the Father in Christ, those who were looking for a country that was not their own, a better place, for they were looking for Christ.

Throughout the OT we see the shadows and types in the physical of the deeper and spiritual unseen reality that is in Christ and the NT.

We see the first Adam, in the flesh. whose descendants live as natural men/women, against God in open rebellion. In Jesus we see the Second Adam, the life giving Spirit who lives obediently before God and gives life and reconciliation with God.

In Moses we see a prophet, priest and mediator between man and God who was given the task of bringing God's people into the Promised Land here on earth. In Jesus we see a Prophet, Priest, King and Mediator who is given the task of bringing God's people into the Promised Land, the heavenly country. Moses did not bring the people into their Promised Land. It was Joshua (God is salvation) who led them. Jesus/Joshua (God with us/God is salvation) did not fail. He brings His people into the greater Promised Land.

In crossing the Red Sea we see a picture of crossing over from sin and death to grace and life, from leaving sin (Egypt) behind and beginning a journey to the Promised Land.

Moses receives the Law of the covenant on Mount Sinai, Jesus receives the New Covenant on Mount Zion. God appoints a priest - Aaron - to atone for the sins of His people. God appoints Jesus, after the order of Melchizedek, as Priest to atone for the sins of His people.

Aaron and the Levitical Priesthood (High Priest) have to enter into this man-made sanctuary year after year in order to make atonement for the sins of the people. Jesus, enters heaven (the true tabernacle, not a copy or a shadow, but the real) once to offer the better sacrifice that is sufficient to atone for all time the sins of His people. The earthly High Priest, once making atonement for the sins of the people, comes out of the sanctuary (MHP) as a sign to the people that the Lord has accepted the atonement. Jesus goes into heaven after rising from the dead. The question for you is when does He come out of the sanctuary?

Hebrews 8:1-2

New International Version (NIV)

The High Priest of a New Covenant

8 Now the main point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven,² and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by a mere human being.

The sacrifice of bulls and goats is not sufficient to make a once for all time offering to God as restitution for sin because an animal is only a substitute in place of what should have been, the person that sinned, for the man/woman who sins shall surely die. Jesus on the other hand becomes man in order that man can meet the righteous requirements of God, a life offered in full obedience to God, a life that always does what is righteous, a life without sin and blemish before God, a Man without sin as our substitute in His offering Himself before God!

Abraham was going to offer the sacrifice of his son to God, but God, who is righteous supplied the Lamb when He gave His only begotten because Abraham's son was insufficient in taking away the sins of the world.

After the wanderings of the Israelites in the desert and entering into the land of promise Jerusalem was chosen as the place in which the house of the Lord would dwell. But Jerusalem was a harlot, a prostitute who was never faithful to the Lord. Jesus went to prepare a place for His people, that He would come back and take them to be where He was - the New Jerusalem, the city of God, not built with human hands.

Israel was made up of twelve tribes that settled in the Promised Land. The New Israel, the church, the Bride of Christ, rest in a heavenly city, not an earthly one, and the twelve disciples are present within the New Israel, the heavenly city and country along with the faithful from the tribes of the old covenant.

We have two women, the one represents the Israel of old - a whore, an unfaithful wife; the other represents the Israel of new - faithful and true. We have two seeds, one spiritually from the seed of Christ and heirs with Him representing those in Christ, the other as those those who represent themselves and are not of the right bloodline to receive an inheritance in the kingdom, for they are aliens. We have two children, born of different women representing the natural children and the children of promise. We have the natural realm and the spiritual realm, the natural man and the spiritual man, the things seen and the things unseen, two births - spiritual and natural, two kingdoms, an earthly one and a heavenly one.

As I said before the list is extensive between the two covenants in which the one only offers shadows and types of what is the true reality of God. God uses the physical realm to help us understand the greater realm that believers in Christ are a part of.

I had better get some sleep. I'm working tonight.

Peter

[OneLight]

With all the comparison, PGA, I am not sure if you see Christ as a continuance with the Jews or if the Jews were left out for rejecting Him and now there is only the Gentiles?