Where is freewill in the bible?

[Repent1]

Greetings borntorebel,

May the shepherd of our soul continue to comfort you

I am enjoying our dialog; I hope that it is the same with you

However, I am unable to bring logic to your theology, for example, you say that the word

[borntorebel]

DE said,

Free Will is NOT "free thinking". I can "think" all sorts of things, but it is my "will" that controls my actions for good or for evil.

Ok, I don't know why you said "free thinking", I never said anything of the sort.

DE said (my responses will be in bold and italics),

Have you given any thought to Judas? He was called, chosen and sent with the power of the Holy Ghost to heal the sick, raise the dead and cast out demons, yet he betrayed our Lord. FREE WILL. Judas CHOSE to betray the Lord Jesus because that was God's plan;"Jesus answered them, 'Have I not chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil(false accuser, slanderer)?'" The thief on the cross - he saw, he heard, he REPENTED and confessed the Name of Jesus AND was forgiven. FREE WILL. The thief repented after God had drawn him (Jn. 6:44), nothing free about that. Annanias and Sapphira - they gave but lied about how much they gave - a devilish heart. FREE WILL. They CHOSE to lie to Peter BECAUSE they were greedy (cause and effect). King David & Bathsheba. He saw how beautiful she was and determined to have her for himself, even at the cost of his head commander. FREE WILL. David saw how beautiful Bathsheba was, and was enticed into lusting after by her beauty, and then CHOSE to have sex with her and have her husband killed. Adam decided to listen to his wife, instead of God - FREE WILL. Adam CHOSE to listen to his wife and eat of the fruit. And on and on it goes. None of these were puppets, they had the ability to choose whom they would follow.

Yes DE, they had the ability to choose, but it wasn't freewill because there was a cause. Freewill says that we make choices without any outside causes. Now you may not define that word this way, but that is what it means. I never said anyone is a puppet. May I ask why you keep presenting things as if I've said or inferred them when I haven't?

May God's power and peace be with you,

Ron

[borntorebel]

Horizoneast said,

I don’t know if this is “the" definition of freewill but it works fine for me:

“The ability to make choices. When it comes to faith, God's grace and our free will interact. Our coming to faith is a result of God's initiative in extending His love to us in Christ. We have the capacity to accept or reject, because God has made us in His image.”

Here's the problem I have. This isn't freewill. Freewill is by definition the ability to make choices without cause. That is impossible. We need to be sure that what we are saying is saying what we mean it to say. We can't just decide what a word means and then use it.

I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee. Ezra 7:13

Excellent job Horizoneast. You're the first person to ever show me that verse. However, the Hebrew word used here doesn't mean to make a choice without cause. Freewill - Strongs # 5069 - nedab - corresp. to 5068; be (or give liberally; #5068 - nadab - to impel; hence to volunteer (as a soldier), to present spontaneously: offer freely (as compared to being compelled against your will). This is similar to the word used in freewill offerings. It means it's a voluntary offering, doing something without being compelled or coerced. As I have said, I believe we have the ability to make choices. What I'm saying is that none of those choices are made without a cause. It is impossible to make a choice without a cause. Something causes every choice we make. Freewill says we can make choices without cause. That is a scientific, physiological and scriptural impossibility; "It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure" Phil. 2:13; "who worketh ALL THINGS after the counsel of His own will" Eph. 1:11.

Again, the New Testament concept of free will is a person’s capacity to freely choose to repent and be saved.

Actually, Jesus tells us in the NT; "no man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (drag) him..." "...no man can come unto me , except it be given unto him of my Father." Jn. 6:44, 65 KJV.

May God's power and peace be with you,

Ron

Edited November 4, 2004 by borntorebel

[Khristeeanos]

Well, I was about to show many examples of the words "free will" in the Bible, but someone has already beaten me to them!

Link

If there is no free will, then God is reduced to what The Bible Answer Man calls a "Divine Rapist."

Without the ability to choose love or reject love, then love cannot exist.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Borntorebel,

Yes DE, they had the ability to choose, but it wasn't freewill because there was a cause. Freewill says that we make choices without any outside causes. Now you may not define that word this way, but that is what it means.

Are you the authority now on what Free Will means? Since it is not a Biblical statement, and certainly the secular community has no reason to care and thus unable to come up with a definition that comports with the Bible, then what makes you the authority?

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[borntorebel]

However, I am unable to bring logic to your theology, for example, you say that the word “draw” means to drag (you are right, that is one of the meanings of that word), I’m aware that this word has several definitions, i.e. (To cause to move in a given direction or to a given position, as by leading) but in this context, to drag is not convenient (suitable or fitting).

Repent1,

You are defining English words. I am going to the original Greek and finding the actual meaning of that word. There is no other definition for the Greek word 'helkuo' than to drag. There are other Greek words translated into draw which mean what you say, but those aren't the words used in this verse or the others I gave you. Did you look up those verses?

It's not suitable or convenient for what? The manmade fable that we can make choices without cause? Do you believe scripture Repent1? "No man can come to me unless the Father which has sent me draw him...no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." Jn. 6:44, 65. Those are Jesus' words, not mine.

Scripture testifies that Jesus said “If I be lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me. You’re saying that because of his death, Christ is now dragging to him the ones that he wants. If this were true then it makes the verse which says that “with God, there is no respect of person” an untrue statement.

By your logic, even without what I am saying, that statement in God's word is untrue because God showed partiality to the Israelites. God using the Greek word 'helkuo' in this verse just gives more proof that we don't CHOOSE God, He chooses us.

How about the verse that says “draw (move) nigh (near) to God and he will draw (move) nigh (near) to you"?

Very good question Repent1. You should purchase a Strongs concordance or use one online, it would be a great asset to your study of God's word. Draw nigh - Strong's #1448 - eggizo - from #1451; to make near, i.e., (reflex.) appraoch.

As you can see, this word is not the same word used in the verses I showed you.

We also have the verse that testifies that it’s God’s desire that all men be saved, why doesn’t he just drag them in:

[i Timothy 2:1-4]

4 (God) who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

When I first saw the meaning of 'helkuo', it bothered me also. I had the same questions you have, and in some ways I still have them. In Jn. 6:65 Jesus says that no man can come unto Him unless it is given him of the Father. I believe God said the same thing with two different Greek words in the same chapter of the same book for a reason. It shows that we cannot choose God, but rather He chooses us. Now I know it says in many places we're to repent of our sins and confess Jesus as savior. Ok, that doesn't go against what I believe. When God gives us the opportunity, then we are to repent and confess Jesus as our savior.

what would you say is the measuring stick for who gets dragged in and who gets cast out?

Sorry Repent, that's up to God. I'll let Him decide that, He's alot smarter than me.

If we are not responsible for our choices to do good or evil, but as you say, God manipulates our every action, then why is there Judgment, it wasn’t our fault if God made us do it.

I never said we aren't responsible for our choices and I never said that God manipulates our every action. Please refrain from putting words in my mouth or insinuating I said something that I didn't say. If you think that's what I mean, please ask. God causes things to happen, just like He did with Pharaoh.

God should give an account to himself for himself and judge himself for all of the errors he caused us to do. (Bad God)

"Shall the thing formed say to him who formed it, 'Why hast thou made me thus?'" Rom. 9:20 KJV. Sounds very similar to what you just said.

As I have said, I don't think that freewill means, "A will independent of God", because scripture teaches that there is nothing that is Independent of God's rule. It also teaches that everyone will give an account of himself to God: What do you think it is that we will give an account of?

In Rev. 20 it says we will give an account for our works.

Once God has called us, we have the ability to choose to follow God or disobey Him. (Do you hear yourself contradicting yourself?)

This isn't a contradiction. As God tells us in Jn. 6:44 & 65, no one can come to Jesus until God gives him the opportunity. Once we are children of God we still have the same ability as we did before God chose us, to do evil or good. If we didn't, then the majority of the epistles were written for nothing.

Why would God command us to do something that we as you say are unable to do? Why does he tell us that Jesus is our example in the flesh, of our power to resist sin?

After God has chosen us, we can resist sin. Before He chose us, we didn't. Please be sure to read what I write. I said we can't repent WITHOUT THE SPIRIT OF GOD WITHIN US, in other words after we are chosen as God's children.

I agree with you that it is the Holy Spirit, which gives us strength, guidance, and provides us with the discerning knowledge of the will of God; this is the reason that we are now able to resist sin and choose righteousness. That is why Jesus died for us, to deliver us from the power of sin and death:

Actually, it's the holy spirit of God and Jesus that does all those things.

(Revelation 3:19-21)

19 As many as I love, I rebuke (criticize) and chasten (correct): be zealous therefore, and repent (To feel such regret for past conduct as to change one's mind regarding it).

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and opens the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

(My testimony)

borntorebel,

do you hear what the preceding verses are teaching? There is no dragging going on here, you must open the door to your heart and invite Christ into your life, and you must overcome the temptations of this world to be in true fellowship with Christ.

Now I don't think you were referring to the quote you had from Romans, so I'll address this quote from Reve. Jesus is speaking to christians here, not sinners. Like I have said several times, once God has chosen us, we can choose to obey or disobey Him. You and others on here seem to be assuming or insinuating I think we are puppets and God controls us. I have never said that.

What do you hear the following verses saying to you?

[Romans 6: 12-16]:

Let (allow) not sin therefore reign (rule) in your mortal (human) body, that ye (you) should obey (serve) it in the lusts (desires) thereof.

Neither yield (surrender) ye (you) your members as instruments (weapons) of unrighteousness unto sin (lust): but yield (surrender) yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead (born again), and your members as instruments (weapons) of righteousness unto God.

For sin shall not have dominion (control) over you: for ye are not under the (Leviticus) law, but under grace (the Omnipotent power of God working on your behalf).

What then? Shall we sin, because we are not under the (Leviticus) law, but under grace? God forbid.

Know ye not, that to whom ye (you) yield (surrender) yourselves servants (slaves) to obey (serve), his servants (slaves) ye are to whom ye obey (serve); whether of sin (lust) unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

[John 9:31]

Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth (does) his will, him he heareth. (Do you hear this message that you must do his will, not that he will make you to do his will).

The verses in Romans mean we should not let sin rule in our bodies, we shouldn't let sin control us since we have now been freed from the bondage of sin. The verses in John confirm what I said; "Now we know that God HEARETH NOT SINNERS..." Yes, we are to do God's will. Concerning the statement that God doesn't make us do His will; "It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure" Phil. 2:13; "who (God) worketh ALL THINGS after the counsel of His own will" Eph. 1:11.

Worketh - Strong's # 1754 - from #1756; to be active, efficient.

This is the same Greek word translated 'effectual' in James 5:16 when it speaks about the prayers of a righteous man being effectual, or accomplishing something. Now, I wouldn't say that God makes us, but He does want us to choose to do His will, which will lead us into a deeper relationship with Him. Can we disobey? Sure we can. If this bothers you, I must refer you once again to Romans 9:19-20.

If God is manipulating, coercing, forcing, dragging, making us do his will, then what was the point or necessity of hundreds of books of instructions, filled with warnings, testimonies, judgments, promises, requirements of fellowship, etc.? Don’t you think that this would be quite redundant (Exceeding what is necessary or natural; superfluous)? Are you saying that we serve a foolish God?

Repent1, I never used the words manipulate, coerce, force or make. Those are your ideas of what I said. I never said those words or implied those words. We can disobey God as christians.

May God's power and peace be with you,

Ron

Edited November 4, 2004 by borntorebel

[borntorebel]

Are you the authority now on what Free Will means? Since it is not a Biblical statement, and certainly the secular community has no reason to care and thus unable to come up with a definition that comports with the Bible, then what makes you the authority?

No I'm not the authority on the definition of words in the English language. I'll leave that to the publishers of the Websters dictionary. Christians say that we can choose God because we have a freewill. First of all, as I have shown, God tells us that no one can come to Jesus unless God gives him/her the opportunity to do so. Jesus even says "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you...". If by using the word 'freewill, you mean that we have a choice in what we do (except of course choosing to believe in God as a sinner) then let's just say we have a choice, because 'freewill' doesn't mean that. It means that God doesn't operate in this world, which goes against a multitude of scriptures. The word 'freewill' is a secular word that christians have adopted which doesn't appear in scripture (with the meaning I have just shown)just like they have the word 'trinity'.

May God's power and peace be with you,

Ron

[larryt]

Quite simply we don't have "free will" but volition which is the ability to choose. There are several instances where God restrains or "molds" the will of man and does not allow him to do as he wills. Jonah is one the comes to mind. And how about Abimelech.

Ge 20:6  And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.

Ex 34:24  For I will cast out the nations before thee, and enlarge thy borders: neither shall any man desire thy land, when thou shalt go up to appear before the LORD thy God thrice in the year.

1Sa 25:26  Now therefore, my lord, [as] the LORD liveth, and [as] thy soul liveth, seeing the LORD hath withholden thee from coming to [shed] blood, and from avenging thyself with thine own hand, now let thine enemies, and they that seek evil to my lord, be as Nabal.

Pr 21:1

[AnotherTraveler]

Freewill (as I see it) is when I get to choose, I make the call, it's my choice.

(Josh 24:15 KJV) And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

(Prov 1:29 KJV) For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

(Phil 1:21 KJV) For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

(Phil 1:22 KJV) But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.

(Phil 1:23 KJV) For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

(Phil 1:24 KJV) Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

(Prov 3:31 KJV) Envy thou not the oppressor, and choose none of his ways.

There is almost a belief that we don't have a choice, and that is a lie from the devil. No only do we have a choice, but we are REQUIRED to make choices daily, and we have to live with the results of those choices.

Yes, God knows everything that I will choose all the days of my life, but I have a part to play in all of this also. The term responsibility is "respond according to your ability". Just my thoughts.

[borntorebel]

There is almost a belief that we don't have a choice, and that is a lie from the devil. No only do we have a choice, but we are REQUIRED to make choices daily, and we have to live with the results of those choices.

Yes, God knows everything that I will choose all the days of my life, but I have a part to play in all of this also. The term responsibility is "respond according to your ability". Just my thoughts.

Another Traveler,

I agree with your statements about choice presented here 100%. Would you agree also that if it is part of God's plan that you or I or someone else do or not do something, do you think He can and will do that?

May God's power and peace be with you,

Ron