I wonder...

[2ndRateMind]

Actually, I was referring to financial derivatives, not calculus derivatives.

I know you were. I am sorry if my awkward phrasing gave you a different impression. I meant the moral calculus, the consideration we give to any ethical decision we make, not mathematical calculus.

I'll get back to you about the rest, later.

Pace, eco.

Edited February 19, 2013 by ecoTramp

[Fez]

Hmmm. I agree with you both, that there are generous rich people. That is why I was careful to say I am not getting at anyone. But, in this context, what do you make of these quotes:

30 million people a year die of hunger. And 800 million suffer from chronic mulnutrition.

Food is not in short supply. In fact, food products have never been so abundant. There is enough available to provide each of the Earth's inhabitants with at least 2700 calories per day. But production alone is not enough.

The UN calculates that the whole of the world population's basic needs for food, drinking water, education and medical care could be covered by a levy of less than 4% on the accumulated wealth of the world's 225 largest fortunes. To satisfy all the world's sanitation and food requirements would would cost only $13bn, hardly as much as the people of the United States and European Union spend on perfume.

Ignacio Ramenez, 'The Politics of Hunger', Le Monde Diplomatique, November 1998.

Best wishes, eco.

What are you doing about it?

As a Christian I mean? if it concerns you as much as it obviously does, what are you doing about it?

You don't have to be wealthy to do something. As my wife always says, "Use what you have in your hands"

[2ndRateMind]

OK, Neb, I have a few moments to deal with the rest of your reply.

What I was trying to explain to you is that wealth generating does not come from salaries and profits but other financial means, and this whole system works different that mere passing bucks around.

Well, actually, of course it doesn't. At any one moment in time, there is so much in the way of physical goods and services that can be supplied. That is 'wealth', in the true sense of the word. It's food you can eat, hairdressers you can attend, aeroplanes you can fly in. Changing the amount of 'money' in the system at that moment has no effect on these; adding more money doesn't increase wealth, just inflates the prices of these physical goods and services.

My point, though, is about judging and pointing fingers. Firstly, I never said anything about emulating Oprah; I was asking you if you point this finger of judgment at her like you do rich Christians?

And to put things into perspective, "the typical person in the bottom 5 percent of the American income distribution is still richer than 68 percent of the world’s inhabitants." (Source) So, Mr. Rich American yourself, are you hoarding any money in the name of "savings" to pay for unexpected expenses like car repairs? Do you take the money you could spend on a camping trip and give it to the poor rather than going on said camping trip? Do you sacrifice a night out with friends so that you could use that money you would have spent with them to give it to the poor? Do you live in a cheaper place than you can afford so that you can give the excess of your income to the poor? Do you plan on buying or did you buy your fiancee a costume jewelry ring as an engagement ring in order to give the money you would have bought for a real jewelry ring to have more money to give to the poor?

And about love . . . Paul speaks of "giving all you have to the poor" but lacking love. He condemns such action. (1 Cor. 13).

Now, this is getting a trifle absurd. I have cast no personal aspersions at you, yet you imply that I am a hyprocrite because my own lifestyle is better than that of world's poor, and a hypocrite for pointing up hypocrisy. Nowhere have I suggested it is our duty to eke out hand-to-mouth existences as the poor have to - indeed, if we were as poor as they are, then we would be part of the problem, and unable to contribute to the solution. That is clearly silly.

But there is a just settlement to be had. I firmly believe that everyone, everywhere, should command a reasonably dignified standard of living. That standard will clearly vary from individual to individual and family to family. I have no problem with that degree of wealth. My problem is with people who deny others their reasonable expectation of dignified living because they are hogging more than their fair share.

So, what is a fair share? Well, work has been done on this by environmental scientists and economists and the like. They have come up with a concept called 'the ecological footprint'. This is the amount of resources one consumes, expressed as the land area required to service it. By aggregating the total one can express the result as the number of planet earths required to sustain your lifestyle, if everyone lived as you did. You can take a short survey here, to discover your own, personal, impact on the environment. I am not going to comment on my lifestyle, other than to say it fits (just) within 1 planet earth.

As for love - it is love that generates my concern over this matter, for the rich, as well as the poor. If I didn't love, I wouldn't care.

Best wishes, eco.

Edited February 19, 2013 by ecoTramp

[nebula]

Now, this is getting a trifle absurd. I have cast no personal aspersions at you, yet you imply that I am a hyprocrite because my own lifestyle is better than that of world's poor, and a hypocrite for pointing up hypocrisy. Nowhere have I suggested it is our duty to eke out hand-to-mouth existences as the poor have to - indeed, if we were as poor as they are, then we would be part of the problem, and unable to contribute to the solution. That is clearly silly. ...

Hi, Eco - sadly again, you are missing the point I was trying to direct you towards. I apologize for not being clear on this. But no, you didn't point fingers at me; however, you are pointing fingers. But remember, whenever you point a finger at someone, three are pointed back at yourself. A wise man will consider this in his judgement.

But let me try to get to my point by having you consider this:

Whenever anyone focused on someone else's sin to Jesus, what did Jesus say to the person in return?

[Fez]

Now, this is getting a trifle absurd. I have cast no personal aspersions at you, yet you imply that I am a hyprocrite because my own lifestyle is better than that of world's poor, and a hypocrite for pointing up hypocrisy. Nowhere have I suggested it is our duty to eke out hand-to-mouth existences as the poor have to - indeed, if we were as poor as they are, then we would be part of the problem, and unable to contribute to the solution. That is clearly silly. ...

And what are you doing to be part of the solution? You introduced the subject, and as a believer it seems to be one close to your heart?

[gdemoss]

1Ti 6:17-19 ¶ Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

Nothing wrong with having wealth in this world. It is what we do with it that matters.

[GoldenEagle]

... can you be both rich and Christian?

I think definitions come into play here of the words in bold...

It depends on what you classify as rich.

In the United States poor people have AC, running water, electricity, Cable/Satelite TV, often a vehicle, various changes of clothes and shoes, 3 meals a day... etc.

First what do you consider rich and what do you consider poor?

Second who do you consider a Christian? There are those that are cultural Christians in name only and those who are follower's of Christ.

God bless,

GE

[2ndRateMind]

Now, this is getting a trifle absurd. I have cast no personal aspersions at you, yet you imply that I am a hyprocrite because my own lifestyle is better than that of world's poor, and a hypocrite for pointing up hypocrisy. Nowhere have I suggested it is our duty to eke out hand-to-mouth existences as the poor have to - indeed, if we were as poor as they are, then we would be part of the problem, and unable to contribute to the solution. That is clearly silly. ...

And what are you doing to be part of the solution? You introduced the subject, and as a believer it seems to be one close to your heart?

Well, I think the argument of this thread stands on it's own merit, whatever I happen to be doing.

But here is one of my projects, just to prove I am not being idle. The website is under development, so don't expect too much! But there should be enough there to give you a flavour.

(See my profile for website.)

Best wishes, eco.

[2ndRateMind]

... can you be both rich and Christian?

...

First what do you consider rich and what do you consider poor?

Second who do you consider a Christian? There are those that are cultural Christians in name only and those who are follower's of Christ.

God bless,

GE

I am concerned with the absolutely poor. Those without adequate food, clothing, shelter, sanitation, and access to education and primary health care. The UN does calculations based on an income of less than $1 per day, I believe.

Defining the rich is not so easy, and I dislike setting arbitrary divisions. But let us, for the sake of argument, talk in terms of anyone with a net worth in excess of $1,000,000, though I think we all know what we mean by rich.

As for Christians - I tend to a rather more loose definition than many are comfortable with. I consider anyone to be a Christian who considers themself to be a Christian.

I hope that clarifies for you.

cheers, eco.

Edited February 20, 2013 by ecoTramp

[2ndRateMind]

But no, you didn't point fingers at me; however, you are pointing fingers. But remember, whenever you point a finger at someone, three are pointed back at yourself. A wise man will consider this in his judgement.

Whenever anyone focused on someone else's sin to Jesus, what did Jesus say to the person in return?

I plead 'Guilty as charged' m'lord.

But I consider this issue so vital that I am willing to take the rap, come judgement day. If this thread changes one attitude, and generates one donation, that saves one life, then it will have been worth it.

cheers, eco.

Edited February 20, 2013 by ecoTramp