Salvation

[saved34]

lol Sorry, I need to at least say this post is addressed to Man

That's what we've been saying.

I have no problem with a person saying this, my problem is with a person telling someone that Faith in the finished work of Christ is not enough to save you.

Is this a lie?

James 2

¹⁷ Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

Not at all, but it is being misapplied. Let me see if I have your position right, I don't want to accuse you or anyone of something they are not saying. Are you saying that in order for one to have true faith, they must work? Or are you saying true faith produces works? Again, the illustration James gave concerning Abraham and Isaac, the "work" that James attributes to Abraham offering Isaac, and that being the evidence that he had true faith, did not happen until years after God had already called and Justified Abraham.

Works alone will not garner salvation and the same can be said of faith. The two need to work together.

This is the problem I have with what you and others are presenting.I say this with all the love I can muster, . Faith will produce works, but please do not say that faith in Christ apart from works, will not save. That flies smack into the truth of the Gospel. The scriptures say when we were without strength, when we were dead in sins, Christ saved us. The moment the sinner hears the Gospel, and recieves the Gospel, he is sealed with the Spirit and placed in the body of Christ. James is only dealing with the instrumentation of salvation, not the Object. He is not telling them that faith (which is germinated by hearing the word of God) cannot save, he is saying the type of faith or belief that does not produce fruit or good works is dead. He is not telling people to go out and work in order to prove you are saved. If you ever get saved, it will be completely apart from your works.

Eph 2:5 even when we were dead because of our offenses, made us alive together with the Messiah (by grace you have been saved)

Rom 5:6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.

Eph 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

The minute you believe, you were sealed in Christ. Now works will follow because God is working in us, but man is not to go around doing good works and claiming this is synergetic with his faith to Justify him before God. That is not what James is teaching, and it is not the true way of salvation.

Rom 4:2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God.

Rom 4:3 What does Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

[Guest man]

Faith will produce works, but please do not say that faith in Christ apart from works, will not save.

I didn't say that. James did.

"Faith without works is dead".

[Fez]

I would suggest that it is you that is misinterpreting scripture, not me. James used the example of how the devils believe but aren't saved. I was responding to a comment that one is saved by simple faith. James shows us we are not, or the devils would be saved.

Butero, that is not what James was trying to show. Do you think it is sufficient to just believe there is a God in order to be saved? That is what he told his readers. He was simply pointing out that they do good if they say they believe in God, but if they show no works, that belief is nothing better than the same belief a devil would have. The scriptures have never attributed faith in the Lord Jesus Christ to a devil. That is the only way a man or woman can be saved, not by simply believing there is a God. He is not showing that one is not saved by Faith alone, but that faith is accompanied by good works. I think we agree on that so I don't know why you would act as if I did not say this in the very post you quoted. This is exactly what I said in post #85

Salvation is completely apart from works, but salvation or simple faith produces works

Abraham didn't lie about his wife. She was his half-sister. People have accused him of lying for as long as I can remember, but it is not true.

lol ok, he told a half lie. I really had no idea that there was even a controversy concerning Sarah really being Abraham's sister. Either way he was not completely truthful in the situation. She was his wife, and he withheld this truth from fear. She is called Haran's daughter in Law in Gen. 11, but I suspect this would be a good time to study Jewish customs and see if she was more of a cousin and called "daughter" or "sister" in a kinship sense.

If anyone is abusing the passage in 1 John, it is you. I just posted it, and I just accept it as written. You are the one arguing with God's Word.

But we both know you can't simply present scripture like that. You must compare spiritual things with spiritual. You cannot read a passage that seemingly contradicts another and just say, 'I accept it as it is". Scripture must be rightly handled or divided. The same book of 1 John had previously told you that any man who says he has not sinned, or that he has no sin, is deceived. All sin is willful in the sense that it is against God's will. That is why it is called sin. We both agree that the passage is talking about a person living in sin, practicing sin as his or her lifestyle. To say a Christian never willfully sins is to be either blind to our own short comings, or we are not totally understanding the nature of sin. Unless you are prepared to say that every sin you have committed since being saved has been in total ignorance.

The point of the scripture is to show that a true Christian doesn't practice wilful sin

Sin is self will. I do agree that true Christians do not practice sin as a lifestyle. Using "willful" is a bit misleading. I suspect you got that from Hebrews 10 which is not talking about typical sins of the flesh, but the ultimate sin of rejection of Jesus Christ.

You are saved by faith, but true faith brings about works.

Agreed

No change in behavior means no faith. No, you are not saved because of your works. Salvation comes through faith, but as the devils lack good works, so you know they are not saved, so it is with the person who claims to be a Christian.

Again, agreed, but here is where you and I must be careful. How much change in behavior must one have to show that they have "true faith"? How much good works, and for that matter, what type of good works show that a person has "true faith"? What happens if they sin? Are they to start all over? Or doubt that they are saved because there works are not perfect?

Let's discuss the words believe and belief for a moment.

I think there may be an elemental difference that is leading to confusion.

Let me try and explain. A non believer can very well believe that Jesus existed, but has not a belief in Him. I think there is a difference, and hence the statement:-

Do you think it is sufficient to just believe there is a God in order to be saved? That is what he told his readers. He was simply pointing out that they do good if they say they believe in God, but if they show no works, that belief is nothing better than the same belief a devil would have.

which is perfectly valid if read one way, could be misconstrued if read another way.

[asper]

Faith will produce works, but please do not say that faith in Christ apart from works, will not save.

I didn't say that. James did.

"Faith without works is dead".

If I may interject,

James is talking about works of faith.

Paul talks about works of the law.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Notice above what has the works.

The question is where in the law does it say to sacrifice your son?

We have works because of faith

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Hebrews 11 goes into more detail of the reaction of works caused by faith.

4 ¶ By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

There are more but I think anyone could see this.

None of the above has anything to do with keeping the law which is self righteousness.

Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble

I think it is obvious that believing that someone exists and has power over you is not the same as putting your trust in someone.

Robertson word pictures

Thou believest that God is one (συ πιστευεις οτι εις θεος εστιν). James goes on with his reply and takes up mere creed apart from works, belief that God exists (there is one God), a fundamental doctrine, but that is not belief or trust in God. It may be mere creed.

Thou doest well (κaλως ποιεις). That is good as far as it goes, which is not far.

The demons also believe (κaι τa δaιμονιa πιστευουσιν). They go that far (the same verb πιστευω). They never doubt the fact of God’s existence.

And shudder (κaι φρισσουσιν). Present active indicative of φρισσω, old onomatopoetic verb to bristle up, to shudder, only here in N.T. Like Latin horreo (horror, standing of the hair on end with terror). The demons do more than believe a fact. They shudder at it.

[Guest man]

None of the above has anything to do with keeping the law which is self righteousness.

Is anyone here advocating strict adherence to the law?

[saved34]

Faith will produce works, but please do not say that faith in Christ apart from works, will not save.

I didn't say that. James did.

"Faith without works is dead".

First off I must commend Asper for an incredibly detailed post. He explained what I really have not been able to convey in just a few words. Brother Man, James did not say that. Again, James is only dealing with the instrumentation, not the Object. Christ is the Object of our faith, and faith placed in him apart from works is what saves. Though faith be the instrument, it is useless unless it first placed in the right Object. Believing in God is commendable, but saving faith is more personal and specific than that. Fez gave a great post as well. Man, I'm not very far off from your own position, I know what you are trying to convey, I simply disagree that faith in the finished redemptive work of Christ alone, is not enough. James is not teaching that we are saved by a mixture of faith+works. He is saying the faith that saves will be accompanied by works. My problem is many will be deceived if they feel they HAVE to work in order to prove they have genuine faith. They will be just like those who stood before Christ on the sinking sand of their works and efforts only to hear that He never knew them in an intimate relationship.

[asper]

None of the above has anything to do with keeping the law which is self righteousness.

Is anyone here advocating strict adherence to the law?

what do you mean by strict?

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

[Guest man]

Faith will produce works, but please do not say that faith in Christ apart from works, will not save.

I didn't say that. James did.

"Faith without works is dead".

First off I must commend Asper for an incredibly detailed post. He explained what I really have not been able to convey in just a few words. Brother Man, James did not say that. Again, James is only dealing with the instrumentation, not the Object. Christ is the Object of our faith, and faith placed in him apart from works is what saves. Though faith be the instrument, it is useless unless it first placed in the right Object. Believing in God is commendable, but saving faith is more personal and specific than that. Fez gave a great post as well. Man, I'm not very far off from your own position, I know what you are trying to convey, I simply disagree that faith in the finished redemptive work of Christ alone, is not enough. James is not teaching that we are saved by a mixture of faith+works. He is saying the faith that saves will be accompanied by works. My problem is many will be deceived if they feel they HAVE to work in order to prove they have genuine faith. They will be just like those who stood before Christ on the sinking sand of their works and efforts only to hear that He never knew them in an intimate relationship.

And that's the point of everything going on here. Those people in that passage from Matthew were trusting in their works, not God.

[Guest man]

None of the above has anything to do with keeping the law which is self righteousness.

Is anyone here advocating strict adherence to the law?

what do you mean by strict?

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

[saved34]

And that's the point of everything going on here. Those people in that passage from Matthew were trusting in their works, not God.

On this we agree. Yet, many would take this passage and say "see, you can place your trust in Christ and still go to hell". When in reality these people never were in Christ to begin with. Christ gave a similar illustration with the Pharisee and the publican. The Pharisee trusted his own works of righteousness and performance, where as the publican simply fell on the mercy of God and was Justified. Christ himself is our mercy seat, our place where God meets us with Mercy and declares us righteous based on the Holy work that Christ did. Justified by God himself. Our works cannot add or take away from this. Scripture calls it the gift of righteousness. Please understand that James is not declaring how we are saved, but rather the effects of true faith. It is wrong to tell a man or woman that faith in Christ alone is not enough to save them. If any man teaches that salvation comes by faith+works, he has polluted the pure gospel message, and is to be accursed. Myself included.