Did Jesus already return?

[donaldjamesperry]

"  his transfiguration among them provides a foretaste of his glory when he will return to judge the earth (16:28). "     

 

 

 

You are watering down the Gospel.   The Gospel is about judgment, that there will be judgment if you go on rejecting the Gospel.  

 

  Jesus was pointing to Jerusalem and holding their feet to the fire.  They were supposing they were going to get away with rejecting the Gospel and keeping the Law MOSES and the Prophets ELISHA and go on Killing His Apostles and Prophets forever.  

 

 

Now we have a rule set up.   If you reject the Gospel you will be judged.  They thought they would be ignored, your interpretation supposes that rejecting the Gospel has no consequence.  Read Gentry's before Jerusalem fell.  I say that in light of my previous posts, I am not a Preterist. 

Edited December 24, 2013 by donaldjamesperry

[Floatingaxe]

I think anyone who declares that Christ has come is a false teacher. Jesus has yet to return, for no one yet has seen Him.

 

Revelation 1:7

Look! He comes with the clouds of heaven.
    And everyone will see him—
    even those who pierced him.
And all the nations of the world
    will mourn for him.
Yes! Amen!

[seeker]

As I see it, much of the judgment spoken about in the NT refers to the destruction of (first century) Jerusalem... even Babylon the Great in Revelation. DonaldJamesPerry, which ones do you see as referring to a yet future and final judgment? I am having a hard time differentiating. I have the same question with the "coming" of Christ/Day of the Lord. Thank you for any help you can give.

Edited December 24, 2013 by seeker

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, donaldjamesperrry.

 

 

Shalom Retrobyter.

You wrote concerning Matt 10:23 and Matt 16:27 the following:

 

From Retrobyter  “So, when Yeshua` said, "Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come [10:23 djp]," He was simply saying that they wouldn't finish their task of visiting all these towns before Yeshua` caught up to them!”

 

From Donald Perry That is out of context with those chapters you quoted into your post.  Verse 18 says “10:18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.”  How is Jesus going to catch up to them on foot?  He would have already resurrected by that time.

 

From Retrobyter  The transfiguration of the Lord in chapter 17 IS the fulfillment of His promise that some would see Him coming in His Kingdom. It was a VISION of what was to come, not the actual event itself! The message and the transfiguration are linked back-to-back in all three of the synoptic Gospels:

 

From Donald Perry: Both the words and the vision speak of His coming future.  The vision does not answer the question of them seeing Him in His Kingdom, the vision defines His coming further as when the Law and the Prophets would be fulfilled and only Jesus would be left, the shadows would dissipate and the true would remain.  “ For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.”in  Luke 21:22-36 tells the same story.  They were not in that time period yet so they did not see His coming at the transfiguration. Furthermore, Jesus said some of them would not die not … both of them would not die.  But both are still alive.  You are making Jesus unintelligible.

 

From Retrobyter  So, rest assured. … our Lord Yeshua` has NOT yet returned as promised.

 

From Donald Perry  Rest assured, Yeshua has returned to those seven churches in Revelation just as God had promised.   The question is, are we ready to see His coming?  Jesus demonstrated a rule, and He does not break His own rules.   The last thing we want to do is make Jesus out to be someone who does not keep His Word.  This problem is not an isolated one, the entire New Testament age is believing with all their hearts that the Lord will return in their generation?  Do you doubt?  How many times do we read last time, last hour, last days,  that was not to mislead them. 

 

The bottom line is that if they thought His coming was a far off there would be no Jewish Christians, they would have all stayed in Jerusalem in AD 66 and ignored the Lord's commands.  He told them to get out.  They did because they understood these things were at had defined by Matt 24 the destruction of the Temple of GOD which cannot be put back on earth now and called again the Temple of GOD.  2 Thess. 2. And this too is impossible for God.  God will not dishonor His Son in this way Hebrews 6 Hebrews 10 and that way and the other way.  It cannot happen it will not happen.  I need to go to bed before I type something stupid. Good night and Gods blessings to you all.   It is 1:41 PM and I am out of batteries.  A word to the wise, do not read your email pointing to posts late at night.

 

 

Not at all, brother. You’re assuming something that I don’t think you have the Scriptural support to assume. You are ASSUMING that this verse is talking about a future time in their lives because Yeshua` said that His twelve were going to be brought before governors and kings. Your assumption is that these events didn’t happen before His death and resurrection. YOU DON’T KNOW THAT! Did that happen to them during Yeshua`s offer of the Kingdom between chapters 10 and 12 or not? Don't make Yeshua` (Jesus) out to be a liar here. He was talking to the twelve; He started the instruction in Matthew 10:1; and, He ended the instruction in Matthew 10:42. Then, the twelve left in Matthew 11:1! 

You’re also forgetting to look at the contexts of ALL the Gospels. He also started the instruction in Luke 9:1 and ended His instruction in Luke 9:5; then the twelve left in Luke 9:6. THEY RETURNED IN LUKE 9:10! Not everything about their journey is recorded in these accounts:

 

Luke 9:1-10

1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.

2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.

3 And he said unto them, Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece.

4 And whatsoever house ye enter into, there abide, and thence depart.

5 And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.

6 And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where.

7 Now Herod the tetrarch heard of all that was done by him: and he was perplexed, because that it was said of some, that John was risen from the dead;

8 And of some, that Elias had appeared; and of others, that one of the old prophets was risen again.

9 And Herod said, John have I beheaded: but who is this, of whom I hear such things? And he desired to see him.

10 And the apostles, when they were returned, told him all that they had done. And he took them, and went aside privately into a desert place belonging to the city called Bethsaida.

KJV

 

This is the SAME EVENT! How did Herod the tetrarch, a KING, hear about Yeshua`? Who were in His court if not governors? Don't assume that this is some future event! It happened to them AT THAT TIME! Why do you think Yochanan`s (John's) disciples visited Him in chapter 11? Why do you think Yeshua` denounced the towns of Korazin, Beit-Tsaidah, and K'far-Nachum in chapter 11? (These are REAL towns in Isra'el!) These were some of the towns that REJECTED Him and His Kingdom!

 

---

 

When you said, "Both the words and the vision speak of His coming future," you should have said, "Both the words and the vision speak of His future coming," because then you would have been right! 

 

First, yes, the vision DID answer the question of them seeing Him in His Kingdom! To have the KING IS to have the Kingdom! That’s why Yeshua` said, “The Kingdom of God is within your grasp,” in Matthew 4:17, and to the PHARISEES, “The Kingdom of God is WITHIN (AMONG) you as a group,” in Luke 17:21! As long as the King was present among them, they had the chance of seeing the Kingdom of God! When they rejected Him, He rejected them in Matthew 23:1-36; then He mourned for them in Matthew 23:37, but He pronounced them “DESOLATE” in Matthew 23:38 with the promise in Matthew 23:39 that they would see Him again WHEN they could say, “Baruwkh haba’ bshem YHWH,” (translated as “Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the LORD” and quoted from Psalm 118:26) which is Hebrew for “Welcome, Comer on the authority of YHWH,” i.e., the Messiah, referring to Himself. When He left the earth, He took His offer of the Kingdom WITH HIM!

 

Second, you need to understand the IMPORTANCE of what they saw! Other kings are crowned with crowns and splendor; Yeshua` is crowned with GLORY! That is, He will LITERALLY GLOW BRIGHTLY with His Father’s Glory! It doesn't matter WHAT He is wearing; who else can GLOW AND SHINE AS HE DOES AND SHALL?! Who else will have the honor and respect from such greats as Mosheh (Moses) and Eliyahu (Elijah)?!

 

Hebrews 2:6-9

6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?

7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. (Psalm 8:4-6) For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

KJV

 

Nevertheless, we DO (or SHOULD) expect Him to come back BODILY!

 

Acts 1:6-11

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven (the sky) as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven (the sky)? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven (the sky), shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven (the sky).

KJV

 

He will return LITERALLY, TANGIBLY, BODILY, and as THE KING OF KINGS AND THE LORD OF LORDS! And, again, we are NOT to be anticipating "going to heaven"; we are to be anticipating the RESURRECTION and His SOON RETURN!

[donaldjamesperry]

“You are assuming …”

 

DJP I know, on that point I am not assuming, Jesus does not lie.  Too many last days verses to list.

 

“When you said, "Both the words and the vision speak of His coming future," you should have said, "Both the words and the vision speak of His future coming," because then you would have been right! “

 

DJP Opps, I made a mistake, now I am right according to you.  What I wrote before was wrong.  I do not believe the second coming is in our past, I do believe it was in their past.

 

“To have the KING IS to have the Kingdom! ”

 

DJP Not really, that is not the point of the second coming and the coming kingdom. Jesus said His kingdom was not of this world, and in John 14 Jesus said He needed to take them out of this world’s thinking for them to be in the place He had prepared.  That would take around 40 years until that wicked generation was completely destroyed.  That is the short answer.

 

“When He left the earth, He took His offer of the Kingdom WITH HIM! … He will return LITERALLY, TANGIBLY, BODILY, and as THE KING OF KINGS AND THE LORD OF LORDS! And, again, we are NOT to be anticipating "going to heaven"; we are to be anticipating the RESURRECTION and His SOON RETURN!”

 

DJP  Stop right there, what you just said amounts to blasphemy to me.  Please do not blaspheme.  That is blasphemy because it assumes that the Christian age is an interruption in God's work's salvation plan.  The referenced videos below show that to be the case. I know what I am talking about and you do not, end of discussion. I want you to watch this entire move and be honest with me and let me know you watched it.  Then I will be more than willing to do what ever you want.

Great Errors in Dispensational Eschatology - Part 2

Great Errors in Dispensational Eschatology - Part 1

 

If you are not going to watch it I do not want to continue debating your argument.

Edited December 25, 2013 by donaldjamesperry

[donaldjamesperry]

As I see it, much of the judgment spoken about in the NT refers to the destruction of (first century) Jerusalem... even Babylon the Great in Revelation. DonaldJamesPerry, which ones do you see as referring to a yet future and final judgment? I am having a hard time differentiating. I have the same question with the "coming" of Christ/Day of the Lord. Thank you for any help you can give.

 

I think you should first watch those two movies I referenced, they are outstanding.  Also read the negative comments to be fair, I cannot believe some of those comments actually.  

 

Getting back to your question, as you study Jesus and His Apostles you will see that they were talking about what defined their world, and Jesus promised them the final Judgment, resurrection and everything else.  Just read Revelation 1-3 about the promises to the seven churches.  The question you are really asking is, is Partial Preterism justified?  The answer no, now that you say most of this is in the past, your done.  All these things are attached.  Preterism is like gravity, and now you are falling and there is no verse that will stop you and give you a yet future final judgment.

 

So what do we do now since all these things are chained to gather?, is really question you will ask if you are not being inconsistent.  

 

The answer is that what happened from AD 33-AD 70 is defined in Revelation only up to a point, after certain points it becomes ideological.  So now we take ALL THE VERSES. AD 33-70 was a historical parable so to speak.  Now, read the Bible like it is written to you, you need to be ideological when it comes to some things.  But to see Jesus in His kingdom is to be without sin.  That is not possible in this world, in this world there is tension always between the 'already but not yet'.  Something else I should probably point out is that our resurrection is like Jesus, and in Jesus.  If you are resurrected and you are missing a body it is because you did not make it to heaven and went to Sheol.  

 

, 

Edited December 25, 2013 by donaldjamesperry

[donaldjamesperry]

 

 

If you are not going to watch it please do not address me again.  Thanx

 

hummm,   that's kind of bold..  really expecting anyone to have to watch a couple hours of video's before talking to you isn't likely to go over well here.

 

 

got ya, I edited it.

Edited December 25, 2013 by donaldjamesperry

[GlidingWings]

I think the answer may have to do with Jesus future fulfillment as we see in Matthew 24 the parable of the fig tree..

 

The Parable of the Fig Tree

³² “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. ³³ So you also, when you see all these things, know that it^[d] is near—at the doors! ³⁴ Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. ³⁵ Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

 

See prior to this parable Jesus tells us about the signs of the sun, moon and the stars. The parable then shows us how close to his appearing. So this is why Jesus tells us when the tree is ripe and you see the signs the time will be very near.

These will be signs in the future.

 

So in conclusion

 

³⁴ Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.

[missmuffet]

That would make no sense at all if Jesus had already returned.

[donaldjamesperry]

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Edited December 25, 2013 by donaldjamesperry