Molinism

[childeye]

I don't see grace as freewill.

Kindly explain your concept of Grace?

That which God gives that is not earned or deserved. Hence whatever good we have, including 'the will' however limited or gifted comes by grace.

[Fez]

Rom_10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

Gal_3:2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?

Did you choose to listen, or did it just sort of happen?

[childeye]

Rom_10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

Gal_3:2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?

Did you choose to listen, or did it just sort of happen?

Great questions Fez. The obvious answer to the first question is hearing and believing what I heard. I heard the Gospel, wherein it was said that the son of God came as a man and that he was crucified, did not fight back but submitted to the ordeal of the cross, and then prayed for forgivness to his Father for those who crucified him on account of they "did not know what they were doing". Three days later he arose from the dead and ascended into heaven to sit at God's right hand, where he now is in authority and makes intercession and advocates for mankind. When I came to believe that, I felt a Spirit of hope in an Eternal Love that transcended all evil. That is in contrast to an image of god I held prior to hearing, that was a god who would cast all sinners into hell unless they be good. And that good being described as keeping the commandments of God.

Did you choose to listen, or did it just sort of happen?

I was raised Catholic, and was brought up seeing this man on a cross and told that he died for our sins, but I did not comprehend why, nor did I care. I had heard the Gospel all my life, but had not yet heard the Gospel. Sorry for the semantics. I was married at age eighteen and was in a place of dire predicament, so that I was forced to turn to some place for help out of necessity. There were no other avenues except the miraculous. So I turned to God and asked him to help me. I recall praying and saying that I did not know whether Jesus was His son, nor did I even know what that meant or why it was important. But I believed in Him and was asking for what He felt I needed. Long story short, I had heard it all my life but the revelation came when I was in trouble and turned to God. I don't see how I could say I chose to listen since I was asking to be heard and seeking a response. I credit my Catholic upbringing for at least knowing the Name Jesus.

[Fez]

Rom_10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

Gal_3:2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?

Did you choose to listen, or did it just sort of happen?

Great questions Fez. The obvious answer to the first question is hearing and believing what I heard. I heard the Gospel, wherein it was said that the son of God came as a man and that he was crucified, did not fight back but submitted to the ordeal of the cross, and then prayed for forgivness to his Father for those who crucified him on account of they "did not know what they were doing". Three days later he arose from the dead and ascended into heaven to sit at God's right hand, where he now is in authority and makes intercession and advocates for mankind. When I came to believe that, I felt a Spirit of hope in an Eternal Love that transcended all evil. That is in contrast to an image of god I held prior to hearing, that was a god who would cast all sinners into hell unless they be good. And that good being described as keeping the commandments of God.

Did you choose to listen, or did it just sort of happen?

I was raised Catholic, and was brought up seeing this man on a cross and told that he died for our sins, but I did not comprehend why, nor did I care. I was married at age eighteen and was in a place of dire predicament, so that I was forced to turn to some place for help out of necessity. There were no other avenues except the miraculous. So I turned to God and asked him to help me. I recall praying and saying that I did not know whether Jesus was His son, nor did I even know what that meant or why it was important. But I believed in Him and was asking for what He felt I needed. Long story short, I had heard it all my life but the revelation came when I was in trouble and turned to God. I don't see how I could say I chose to listen since I was asking to be heard and seeking a response. I credit my Catholic upbringing for at least knowing the name Jesus.

So I turned to God and asked him to help me.

But I believed in Him and was asking for what He felt I needed.

But can't you see that both of these decisions required you to exercise your free will?

[childeye]

Rom_10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

Gal_3:2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?

Did you choose to listen, or did it just sort of happen?

Great questions Fez. The obvious answer to the first question is hearing and believing what I heard. I heard the Gospel, wherein it was said that the son of God came as a man and that he was crucified, did not fight back but submitted to the ordeal of the cross, and then prayed for forgivness to his Father for those who crucified him on account of they "did not know what they were doing". Three days later he arose from the dead and ascended into heaven to sit at God's right hand, where he now is in authority and makes intercession and advocates for mankind. When I came to believe that, I felt a Spirit of hope in an Eternal Love that transcended all evil. That is in contrast to an image of god I held prior to hearing, that was a god who would cast all sinners into hell unless they be good. And that good being described as keeping the commandments of God.

Did you choose to listen, or did it just sort of happen?

I was raised Catholic, and was brought up seeing this man on a cross and told that he died for our sins, but I did not comprehend why, nor did I care. I was married at age eighteen and was in a place of dire predicament, so that I was forced to turn to some place for help out of necessity. There were no other avenues except the miraculous. So I turned to God and asked him to help me. I recall praying and saying that I did not know whether Jesus was His son, nor did I even know what that meant or why it was important. But I believed in Him and was asking for what He felt I needed. Long story short, I had heard it all my life but the revelation came when I was in trouble and turned to God. I don't see how I could say I chose to listen since I was asking to be heard and seeking a response. I credit my Catholic upbringing for at least knowing the name Jesus.

So I turned to God and asked him to help me.

But I believed in Him and was asking for what He felt I needed.

But can't you see that both of these decisions required you to exercise your free will?

The problem is the word free in front of will which is the cause of my disdain for the term. As I have said I turned to God out of necessity. As such I would consider that all events in my life have led me to God and I would also consider that this is not beyond God's design rather than a chance occurance of a free floating will.

[childeye]

And yes we see through a glass darkly, so I do not see everything. But, it doesn't set people free to tell them they knowingly and wantonly sin because they simply choose to. For this means they simply could choose not to which undermines the Gospel. I feel that such teaching brings condemnation upon people when they struggle to not sin and only fail. They become convinced they must be no good and God becomes a terror of hell, so they leave the faith, though they never even truly experienced it.

Again, free will is the name given to the ability to choose. There is no need to add anything else to the definition of free will.

I have read all of your loving responses and I thank you for them. I have chosen this one to respond to since I feel we are at a point of understanding where the central issue is a difference in how we view two words. The word free and the word will. I know that we make choices, that we will to do this or that. So that is not in dispute. Therefore, we should not waste our time pursuing that any longer. The word free however poses in my mind that there is no undrlying impetus or reason why we choose the way we do. This I cannot see. It is as if I had asked the question "why did I choose that?" And the answer came back, "because you could". As a means of enlightenment that answer just doesn't cut it.

[Fez]

Rom_10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

Gal_3:2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?

Did you choose to listen, or did it just sort of happen?

Great questions Fez. The obvious answer to the first question is hearing and believing what I heard. I heard the Gospel, wherein it was said that the son of God came as a man and that he was crucified, did not fight back but submitted to the ordeal of the cross, and then prayed for forgivness to his Father for those who crucified him on account of they "did not know what they were doing". Three days later he arose from the dead and ascended into heaven to sit at God's right hand, where he now is in authority and makes intercession and advocates for mankind. When I came to believe that, I felt a Spirit of hope in an Eternal Love that transcended all evil. That is in contrast to an image of god I held prior to hearing, that was a god who would cast all sinners into hell unless they be good. And that good being described as keeping the commandments of God.

Did you choose to listen, or did it just sort of happen?

I was raised Catholic, and was brought up seeing this man on a cross and told that he died for our sins, but I did not comprehend why, nor did I care. I was married at age eighteen and was in a place of dire predicament, so that I was forced to turn to some place for help out of necessity. There were no other avenues except the miraculous. So I turned to God and asked him to help me. I recall praying and saying that I did not know whether Jesus was His son, nor did I even know what that meant or why it was important. But I believed in Him and was asking for what He felt I needed. Long story short, I had heard it all my life but the revelation came when I was in trouble and turned to God. I don't see how I could say I chose to listen since I was asking to be heard and seeking a response. I credit my Catholic upbringing for at least knowing the name Jesus.

So I turned to God and asked him to help me.

But I believed in Him and was asking for what He felt I needed.

But can't you see that both of these decisions required you to exercise your free will?

The problem is the word free in front of will which is the cause of my disdain for the term. As I have said I turned to God out of necessity. As such I would consider that all events in my life have led me to God and I would also consider that this is not beyond God's design rather than a chance occurance of a free floating will.

Nope I disagree. Jesus said it Himself...

Mat 7:7 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

Mat 7:8 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.

There is free will in every sentence..

Knocking requires a decision, asking, seeking, all require decisions made of your own free will.

[OneLight]

The problem is the word free in front of will which is the cause of my disdain for the term. As I have said I turned to God out of necessity. As such I would consider that all events in my life have led me to God and I would also consider that this is not beyond God's design rather than a chance occurance of a free floating will.

free will

noun

1. free and independent choice; voluntary decision
   
2. Philosophy: the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses a personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine force.
   

There is more on the site linked to, but it says the same thing.

[Fez]

There is nothing wrong with having a free will. It is not in any way going against God by having a free will (He hardwired it into us since the time of Adam)

How we practice this will is the crux of the problem

Hence the prayer "Your will be done", because Jesus knew that free will with no boundaries is a very destructive force.

[childeye]

Rom_10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

Gal_3:2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?

Did you choose to listen, or did it just sort of happen?

Great questions Fez. The obvious answer to the first question is hearing and believing what I heard. I heard the Gospel, wherein it was said that the son of God came as a man and that he was crucified, did not fight back but submitted to the ordeal of the cross, and then prayed for forgivness to his Father for those who crucified him on account of they "did not know what they were doing". Three days later he arose from the dead and ascended into heaven to sit at God's right hand, where he now is in authority and makes intercession and advocates for mankind. When I came to believe that, I felt a Spirit of hope in an Eternal Love that transcended all evil. That is in contrast to an image of god I held prior to hearing, that was a god who would cast all sinners into hell unless they be good. And that good being described as keeping the commandments of God.

Did you choose to listen, or did it just sort of happen?

I was raised Catholic, and was brought up seeing this man on a cross and told that he died for our sins, but I did not comprehend why, nor did I care. I was married at age eighteen and was in a place of dire predicament, so that I was forced to turn to some place for help out of necessity. There were no other avenues except the miraculous. So I turned to God and asked him to help me. I recall praying and saying that I did not know whether Jesus was His son, nor did I even know what that meant or why it was important. But I believed in Him and was asking for what He felt I needed. Long story short, I had heard it all my life but the revelation came when I was in trouble and turned to God. I don't see how I could say I chose to listen since I was asking to be heard and seeking a response. I credit my Catholic upbringing for at least knowing the name Jesus.

So I turned to God and asked him to help me.

But I believed in Him and was asking for what He felt I needed.

But can't you see that both of these decisions required you to exercise your free will?

The problem is the word free in front of will which is the cause of my disdain for the term. As I have said I turned to God out of necessity. As such I would consider that all events in my life have led me to God and I would also consider that this is not beyond God's design rather than a chance occurance of a free floating will.

Nope I disagree. Jesus said it Himself...

Mat 7:7 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

Mat 7:8 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.

There is free will in every sentence..

Knocking requires a decision, asking, seeking, all require decisions made of your own free will.

I don't see freewill in every sentence. I see necessity. Who asks to receive, when they have no need? Who seeks when they have no needl to find?

Consider. Blessed are the hungry for they shall be filled. Elsewhere this hunger is described as a hunger for righteousness. The analogy is therefore, the need for food causes one to be hungry. It is written, God gave men stomachs so that they might thank God for their food. Hence God gave men both hunger and food. Where is the freewill? We do not choose to have hunger though we will choose to seek food because we are hungry.