Literal Swords vs Spiritual Weapons

[xero]

Luke 22:31 "And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

33 And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death.

34 And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.

35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.

36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough."

Mark 14:37 "And he cometh, and findeth them sleeping, and saith unto Peter, Simon, sleepest thou? couldest not thou watch one hour?

38 Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak.

39 And again he went away, and prayed, and spake the same words.

40 And when he returned, he found them asleep again, (for their eyes were heavy,) neither wist they what to answer him.

41 And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: it is enough, the hour is come; behold, the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners."

John 18:10 "Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus.

11 Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?"

Luke 22:51 "And Jesus answered and said, Suffer ye thus far. And he touched his ear, and healed him."

Matthew 26:52 "Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. 53Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? 54But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?"

Matthew 16:21 "From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. 22Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. 23But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men."

[enoob57]

Let me try to get this straight. You introduced the notion of the whole council of God into the discussion by citing 2 Cor. I then respond by citing Ecclesiastes which the last time I checked - is still part of the whole council of God.

The Word of God is about forward to completion of the plan of God. No where in It's structure is staying where you but always a movement away from sin and toward God... The OT in synopsis is how sin began, what it is, and no one could escape it's grasp. I did not cite Ecc. you did and I countered with the fact that God's Kingdom is not of this world right now as we are not to be of this world either!

John 15:19-20

19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out

of the world, therefore the world hates you. 20 Remember the word that I said to you, 'A servant is not greater than

his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also.

NKJV

We can plainly see that we live in a fallen world and it's obvious that there are times of war and peace. You counter by making a point of dispensational difference to which I responded that the age of grace is the fulfillment of OT law - not the abolishment of it. Do you agree or disagree as you have not stated your position?

The Law is fulfilled in Christ

Matt 5:17-20

17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means

pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments,

and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them,

he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness

exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

NKJV

I am not sure if you are attempting to use Jn 18:36 scripture as your basis for "not fighting." Nevertheless, that verse cannot be used to support a universal position of not resorting to violence under any and all circumstances because in its proper context Jesus is specifically referring to his soon crucifixion which must be fulfilled according to the Father's plan. Therefore any "fighting" action taken by Jesus' followers would be directly contrary to the Father's will being done.

I will ask you this- if perfect love is perfect obedience to Jesus and that obedience is to die to one's self... what exactly is there to defend?

satan loves to give a no win scenario here, like, there is no choice but to fight but in reality the worst thing the world can do to me is send me Home!

Remember life belongs to God not to ourselves and it is totally about preparing moment by moment for this moment

Rom 14:12-13

12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore,

but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother's way.

NKJV

Love, Steven

[The_Patriot21]

mr. steven. What if God wanted to use you, to protect that innocent child, but because your refusal to take up arms that child died?

[enoob57]

mr. steven. What if God wanted to use you, to protect that innocent child, but because your refusal to take up arms that child died?

Pat God took the life of Bathsheba's son... satan will give you always a no choice situation here but God says other

1 Cor 10:12-13

12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. 13 No temptation has overtaken

you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted

beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may

be able to bear it.

NKJV

Always look for the way to glorify Him and you will be shown it! All of where we are at- is all we have known!

satan knows this and has woven into life numerous pit falls because the movement of faith is literally moment

by moment... I would no more want that baby to die than anything and I trust my Father in Heaven would allow

for me a way to protect the child and glorify Him in so doing! Remember always death is gain not loss and who

would not want gain for those they love or themselves? I would gladly give my life for the child but even in the

light we have spoken of - it would be me taking gain for myself and not the child! The New Mind given us is

difficult to follow at times!

The Lord has put the light of life in us and it should look exactly as His did, if we would just die to ourselves and

this, that we have began in, it will! The way is always difficult and few that find it because they are looking for

resources that are here and not what God sends down from above! The pride of life is so illusive to the mind

because it is covered with all this worlds glory as right and proper... made perfectly acceptable by the sheer

numbers of its followers but The Lord says no... follow Me

John 12:25-26

25 He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

26 If anyone serves Me, let him follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also. If anyone

serves Me, him My Father will honor.

NKJV

Col 3:1-4

3 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the

right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For you died, and your

life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

NKJVLove, Steven

[The_Patriot21]

Still seems to me your taking scripture out of context, and ignoring others. Yes, we need to be dead to self-but the way to be dead to self, is by following His word, and His word, tells us to protect those who cannot protect themselves, and to protect our families. The ultra pacifistic approach is not Biblical. To ignore the parts of the Bible that tell us to protect the weak, and to protect our families, is not being dead to Christ-its ignoring His very word. And that is all I have to say on the matter.

[enoob57]

Still seems to me your taking scripture out of context, and ignoring others. Yes, we need to be dead to self-but the way to be dead to self, is by following His word, and His word, tells us to protect those who cannot protect themselves, and to protect our families. The ultra pacifistic approach is not Biblical. To ignore the parts of the Bible that tell us to protect the weak, and to protect our families, is not being dead to Christ-its ignoring His very word. And that is all I have to say on the matter.

Then you are prepared to give an account of yourself to God in this ... so I am as well

I am not a pacifist! I am actively engaged in Spiritual warfare with weapon that are not of this world!

I want the light of God to say in me there is life but it is where my Lord is and not here therefore when

I don't fight to keep this life- like they do- they will be forced to reckon with why! Love, Steven

[The_Patriot21]

I fully believe in spiritual battle. And I am not one to defend myself persay. But I do believe there is a time to take up arms in this world-as is described in the Bible, and I am prepared to do so, if the need were to arise.

[enoob57]

I think I got that already Pat ...

there is one other thing you should consider - why was David not allowed to build God's Temple?

[The_Patriot21]

Because He was a man of war, but on the same note, why was David considered a man after Gods own heart? Yes, David was kept from building Gods temple because he was a warrior-that is true, but it is also true that he was a warrior, who fought with worldly weapons, who was described, by God, as a man after Gods own heart. God never looked down upon David for being a warrior, in fact, David did what God commanded of Him. Different people for different tasks.

[Willa]

Permit me to butt in. It speculate that while Jesus was with the disciples He protected them provided for them, comforted them, taught them, and guided them. He sent them out without a sword but as lambs among wolves. He did want them aware of the dangers and rejection that they would face.

But in the quoted pasages from Luke He was trying to warn them that the time was coming when He would die and not be with them to do all those things. They would be totally on their on for a time.

In fact, when He ascended He told them to await in Jeruselem until power came from on high. So they hid in fear and in obedience in the upper room till the Holy Spirit was poured out. He was and is the promised "another comforter" that Jesus said He would send. His Spirit would do for all of us what Jesus had done for the disciples who had walked with Him. We do have to listen to Him, obey, and depend on Him as the disciples had done while following Jesus in the Gospels.

So we today have the full armor of God and the Sword of the Spirit, God's Word. The disciples had Jesus to fight their spiritual battles for them. Between the time that He died and the time that the Holy Spirit was poured out they had no guidance or power to defend themselves at all. They were in grave danger. After the Spirit was poured out they received power, guidance, inspiration, protection, and all that Jesus was on earth to them. They had weapons of the Word, The Spirit, their testamonies and the Blood of Jesus as well as the rest of the armor of God.

By stating all of this I in no way am saying that the swords spoken about were not litteral. They were swords made of metal. Nor am I saying that Jesus has ever said that litteral weapons are never needed. He in fact told the Roman soldiers that were saved to stay in that trade. (He told all to serve God where we are. Bloom where we are planted). We fight spiritual battles with spiritual weapons formed against us. But sometimes we also must defend ourselves with physical weapons against physical attacks as I am sure the soldiers did. We need Christian soldiers in the armed forces, today as well.

I never advocate violence. But I am not in any way a pacifist, either. Nor am I trying to find a compromise among the opinions given by my friends in the above posts. Instead I am postulating another way to approach the subject.

P.S. I still don't understand authorized KJV and had to look up the verses in my NKJV. Not a new Christian, either. I was saved in the 50s. Blame it on my dyslexia if you must.