King Saul's possession

[BlessedByTheBest]

1Sa 16:13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.

1Sa 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

1Sa 16:15 And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.

1) did Saul being given up by God to be buffeted by satan result in demonic possession, or just a troubled spirit?

2) was the Holy Spirit dwelling in the spirit of men before Christ's ascension?

are there any differences between the operation of God's Holy Spirit in the old covenant and the new?

3) are there any differences between the 2 covenants in regards to growing cold and grieving the Spirit of God away, as Saul did for example?

4) was King Saul filled with the Spirit of God because he prophesied?

5) can a demonic spirit come into possession of where the Holy Spirit now dwells in a born-again believer? (not Body or Soul, but Spirit)

answer one or answer all!

thank you all, and God bless.

[Sevenseas]

1) did Saul being given up by God to be buffeted by satan result in demonic possession, or just a troubled spirit?

I don't think the text indicates he was possessed. For one thing, he was not 'under the influence' of the spirit at all times David's music soothed him

and it appears he was troubled periodically rather than constantly

2) was the Holy Spirit dwelling in the spirit of men before Christ's ascension?

are there any differences between the operation of God's Holy Spirit in the old covenant and the new?

All Israelites were not filled with the Holy Spirit as believers are and can be now. There are more details

but basically, Yes, there is a difference between old and new covenants. Absolutely

3) are there any differences between the 2 covenants in regards to growing cold and grieving the Spirit of God away, as Saul did for example?

Not sure how you are integrating the covenants with the Holy Spirit and the responsibility of the Israelites then or believers now...I'll wait & see on this one

4) was King Saul filled with the Spirit of God because he prophesied?

Eh? So Saul went to Naioth at Ramah. But the Spirit of God came even on him, and he walked along prophesying until he came to Naioth (from I Samuel 19)

Particularly interesting as this was in conjunction with Saul suffering with the evil spirit that had come upon him at various times (including just before this episode)

As an aside to the above, I think this indicates that demons can and do bother Christians and not, as some say, the the Holy Spirit and an evil spirit cannot be in

the same place at the same time...but that could sidetrack so I'll leave it there...just an interesting thought or note

5) can a demonic spirit come into possession of where the Holy Spirit now dwells in a born-again believer? (not Body or Soul, but Spirit)

Believers are not possessed...possession indicates ownership...we are not owned by demons

While on the subject, the more accurate translation would be the person has possession of the demon and not vice versa...in other words, the demon does not own...actually neither does the person,

but, the person HAS the demon and not the demon HAS the person

Once that is understood, it makes things clearer. I'm tired of hearing the discussion can Christians be demon possessed and then the rejoinder...no demons cannot dwell in a Christian as the Holy Spirit

will not share residence in a Christian...both of those views are extreme IMO and not helpful in actually understanding what might be going on

I also do not care much for so called deliverance ministries...where in scripture is it indicated that expelling demons is a ministry? It is always indicated as part of the ability any Christian should have

So I guess that's enough to create a stir for now... (well, in some cases)

[BlessedByTheBest]

hi seven!!!

1) did Saul being given up by God to be buffeted by satan result in demonic possession, or just a troubled spirit?

I don't think the text indicates he was possessed. For one thing, he was not 'under the influence' of the spirit at all times David's music soothed him

and it appears he was troubled periodically rather than constantly

does this mean that you are saying demonic manifestations always occur constantly????

2) was the Holy Spirit dwelling in the spirit of men before Christ's ascension?

are there any differences between the operation of God's Holy Spirit in the old covenant and the new?

All Israelites were not filled with the Holy Spirit as believers are and can be now. There are more details

but basically, Yes, there is a difference between old and new covenants. Absolutely

details please!

3) are there any differences between the 2 covenants in regards to growing cold and grieving the Spirit of God away, as Saul did for example?

Not sure how you are integrating the covenants with the Holy Spirit and the responsibility of the Israelites then or believers now...I'll wait & see on this one

i guess this depends on what you care to share concerning question #2..

how would we describe the Spirit of the LORD departing from Saul, if believers before Pentecost were not filled with the Holy Spirit? what would be the difference?

4) was King Saul filled with the Spirit of God because he prophesied?

Eh? So Saul went to Naioth at Ramah. But the Spirit of God came even on him, and he walked along prophesying until he came to Naioth (from I Samuel 19)

Particularly interesting as this was in conjunction with Saul suffering with the evil spirit that had come upon him at various times (including just before this episode)

As an aside to the above, I think this indicates that demons can and do bother Christians and not, as some say, the the Holy Spirit and an evil spirit cannot be in

the same place at the same time...but that could sidetrack so I'll leave it there...just an interesting thought or note

this can also be answered in conjunction with #2.. How was the Spirit of God operating in men of those times..(as in prophecy for example)

if the gifts and abilities these men were given came about by a different manifestation of the Holy Spirit, then how does it differ from our current age?

5) can a demonic spirit come into possession of where the Holy Spirit now dwells in a born-again believer? (not Body or Soul, but Spirit)

Believers are not possessed...possession indicates ownership...we are not owned by demons

While on the subject, the more accurate translation would be the person has possession of the demon and not vice versa...in other words, the demon does not own...actually neither does the person,

but, the person HAS the demon and not the demon HAS the person

Once that is understood, it makes things clearer. I'm tired of hearing the discussion can Christians be demon possessed and then the rejoinder...no demons cannot dwell in a Christian as the Holy Spirit

will not take up residence in a Christian...both of those views are extreme IMO and not helpful in actually understanding what might be going on

I also do not care much for so called deliverance ministries...where in scripture is it indicated that expelling demons is a ministry? It is always indicated as part of the ability any Christian should have

So I guess that's enough to create a stir for now... (well, in some cases)

interesting, thank you for this..

i might be reading this wrong, but are you saying that the Holy Spirit does not reside in us?

"no demons cannot dwell in a Christian as the Holy Spirit will not take up residence in a Christian"

i understand what you say about those ministries, every believer has been given that authority.

thanks seven!!!

[Sevenseas]

i might be reading this wrong, but are you saying that the Holy Spirit does not reside in us? AHHH!!! no no no...hope that is clearer...LOL! I am NOT saying that. Now I am wondering how I gave that impression???

"no demons cannot dwell in a Christian as the Holy Spirit will not take up residence in a Christian" aha...fixed to mean that the Holy Spirit and demons cannot be in the same place at the same time ...glad you caught that...that

wasn't what I meant at all!..that is the argument used to say that Christians cannot be bothered by demons (which I do not believe)

i understand what you say about those ministries, every believer has been given that authority. yes. thanks

[Sevenseas]

all quotes from Blessed

does this mean that you are saying demonic manifestations always occur constantly????

no...however, (and I would have to consult the text) I do not believe the demon was always around; it appeared to leave at times? What I am saying, is that it was not possession IMO

I think there are different kinds of being bothered...and some are more severe than others...no set formula in other words

details please!

oh you would ask will do so later please

i guess this depends on what you care to share concerning question #2..

how would we describe the Spirit of the LORD departing from Saul, if believers before Pentecost were not filled with the Holy Spirit? what would be the difference?

will share...need time...are we helping you write your thesis?

this can also be answered in conjunction with #2.. How was the Spirit of God operating in men of those times..(as in prophecy for example)

if the gifts and abilities these men were given came about by a different manifestation of the Holy Spirit, then how does it differ from our current age?

Ummm...I don't believe the Holy Spirit is any different now then He was then....I would not say the manifestation or work was different, but rather as Jesus said, He had to

return back to the Father in order for the Holy Spirit to come...as He did at Pentecost...don't have a better answer for that one at the moment other than that is how

God arranged it and wanted it...

With regards to prophecy, there is a significant diff....same time excuse as previously used...be back later...would like to see other responses Thanks!

[BlessedByTheBest]

lol ok, take your time and appreciate your input seven. thanks for clarifying also.

no you are not helping me with my thesis(lol), but answers may possibly assist me in a discussion with a friend of mine.

i am unsure as to whether or not Saul possessed a demonic spirit, but am sure that a spirit was sent to trouble him..just want to see what anyone else's take was on this, and maybe someone can share some other examples from scripture to support why they believe as they do.

[BlessedByTheBest]

shameless bump

[Sevenseas]

LOL!...thought of this thread today but checked and no one but little ole lonesome me had stuck their nose in..

bump bump...we'll need a speed bump soon...........

[Guest ninhao]

because of the bumped .... and sister SevenSea's lonely nose.

1Sa 16:13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.

1Sa 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

1Sa 16:15 And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.

1) did Saul being given up by God to be buffeted by satan result in demonic possession, or just a troubled spirit?

I think that which occurred to Saul the same can be said in the NT concerning Hymenaeus and Alexander

1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

]

2) was the Holy Spirit dwelling in the spirit of men before Christ's ascension?

are there any differences between the operation of God's Holy Spirit in the old covenant and the new?

The Holy spirit has always indwelt God's people. Ask King David.

Psa 51:10-11 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. (11) Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

3) are there any differences between the 2 covenants in regards to growing cold and grieving the Spirit of God away, as Saul did for example?

I don't think so.

Heb_13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

4) was King Saul filled with the Spirit of God because he prophesied?

Yes. This is no different than when in the NT people prophesied.

Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

5) can a demonic spirit come into possession of where the Holy Spirit now dwells in a born-again believer? (not Body or Soul, but Spirit)

Most definitely no.

Luk 11:35-36 Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness. (36) If thy whole body therefore be full of light, having no part dark, the whole shall be full of light, as when the bright shining of a candle doth give thee light.

Mar 3:24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.

Gen_1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. ( nice analogy for good vs evil )

[BlessedByTheBest]

interesting thanks a lot ninhao!

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

2Ti 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:

2Ti 4:15 Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words.

it seems God may have different reasons for allowing these things to occur.

sometimes the enemy is used in order to transform characters, other times to drastically increase our faith..

perhaps King Saul needed to be restrained by torment and sickness, so that he would be led to repent!

i have also found it interesting that we are empowered and encouraged to do the same towards the brethren among us who speak heresies or blasphemies or commit sins.

it seems like a form of ..excommunication from the group of believers..

Paul spoke here specifically about the sin of fornication by incest:

1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

1Co 5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

1Co 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

a parallel to the removal of the Holy Spirit.. the Church is admonished to cut off the cancer, so to speak..

that part of the body that is stricken by illness is given up to the enemy to buffet even unto death, so that the member's spirit may be saved...

thoughts?