Born of Water and Spirit by Jack Kelly

[Littlelambseativy]

Are you saying that natural birth takes the place of immersion baptism?

1 am saying that it is a sacrament like Christening or dedication or infant baptism. Is it necessary -no- but the acceptance of Jesus sacrifice for our sin and the infilling of the Holy Spirit now that we are not under the law is all sufficient. Water immersion is a sacrament - am I not correct? Just the same as a wedding, communion or infant baptism ?

My issue with immersion is that those of other faiths who do not immerse may feel it is necessary for salvation because of the way it is presented and taught by the baptists of differing denominations. While I am secure in my faith and knowledge of Salvation and have no need for the process of immersion I find immersion unnecessary for a deeper understanding of faith in our Lord and the working of the Holy Spirit in a life surrendered to Him - freed by Jesus death and resurrection. If it is something that I must do then it takes away from the gift of grace and becomes works making the gift of no effect.

Do you realize you're teaching that all mentions of baptism in the Word can be ignored? If natural childbirth takes the place of immersion baptism, that would mean that God forces baptism on everyone. It also means that every mention of baptism, other than baptism of the Holy Spirit, is redundant. They're just empty words and phrases that mean absolutely nothing. You're taking away and adding things to the bible to suit your own belief's. Jesus was baptised and regardless if it was full immersion or just a sprinkling, you're saying it isn't necessary because we were all baptised at birth. Your own belief that sprinkling is all that is needed is also redundant if natural childbirth takes the place of full immersion baptism.

You're teaching something here that isn't biblical.

Where do you see that I am saying that all mention of baptism should be ignored? I have not indicated that anywhere!

I am saying that the water and the blood that flowed from Jesus side is what cleanses me. That is all the cleansing I need for my sin. I do not have to go through any other ceremony because it was done once for all. We do infant baptism a ceremony/sacrament which you do not agree with and that is fine with me but do not insist that immersion is necessary because all was done on the cross for me and I need not add to what Jesus did on the cross. Did He not say 'It is done!' once for all?

[Guest man]

Are you saying that natural birth takes the place of immersion baptism?

1 am saying that it is a sacrament like Christening or dedication or infant baptism. Is it necessary -no- but the acceptance of Jesus sacrifice for our sin and the infilling of the Holy Spirit now that we are not under the law is all sufficient. Water immersion is a sacrament - am I not correct? Just the same as a wedding, communion or infant baptism ?

My issue with immersion is that those of other faiths who do not immerse may feel it is necessary for salvation because of the way it is presented and taught by the baptists of differing denominations. While I am secure in my faith and knowledge of Salvation and have no need for the process of immersion I find immersion unnecessary for a deeper understanding of faith in our Lord and the working of the Holy Spirit in a life surrendered to Him - freed by Jesus death and resurrection. If it is something that I must do then it takes away from the gift of grace and becomes works making the gift of no effect.

Do you realize you're teaching that all mentions of baptism in the Word can be ignored? If natural childbirth takes the place of immersion baptism, that would mean that God forces baptism on everyone. It also means that every mention of baptism, other than baptism of the Holy Spirit, is redundant. They're just empty words and phrases that mean absolutely nothing. You're taking away and adding things to the bible to suit your own belief's. Jesus was baptised and regardless if it was full immersion or just a sprinkling, you're saying it isn't necessary because we were all baptised at birth. Your own belief that sprinkling is all that is needed is also redundant if natural childbirth takes the place of full immersion baptism.

You're teaching something here that isn't biblical.

Where do you see that I am saying that all mention of baptism should be ignored? I have not indicated that anywhere!

I am saying that the water and the blood that flowed from Jesus side is what cleanses me. That is all the cleansing I need for my sin. I do not have to go through any other ceremony because it was done once for all. We do infant baptism a ceremony/sacrament which you do not agree with and that is fine with me but do not insist that immersion is necessary because all was done on the cross for me and I need not add to what Jesus did on the cross. Did He not say 'It is done!' once for all?

You need to stop doing that. Nowhere in any of my posts did I say immersion was necessary.

[Willa]

Yet the Israelites who fled Pharaoh were baptized when they went through the sea and through Moses in the cloud.

! Corinthians

10:1 For I do not want you to be unaware,1 brothers and sisters,2 that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea, 10:2 and all were baptized3 into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 10:3 and all ate the same spiritual food, 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they were all drinking from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.

I seem to remember that the children of Israel passed over dry land when the Red Sea was held back, and it was Pharoh's armies that were uh, baptized and drowned. But I don't want to diminish the point Paul was trying to make in imparting spiritual application So I shouldn't be nit picky.

[Littlelambseativy]

Are you saying that natural birth takes the place of immersion baptism?

1 am saying that it is a sacrament like Christening or dedication or infant baptism. Is it necessary -no- but the acceptance of Jesus sacrifice for our sin and the infilling of the Holy Spirit now that we are not under the law is all sufficient. Water immersion is a sacrament - am I not correct? Just the same as a wedding, communion or infant baptism ?

My issue with immersion is that those of other faiths who do not immerse may feel it is necessary for salvation because of the way it is presented and taught by the baptists of differing denominations. While I am secure in my faith and knowledge of Salvation and have no need for the process of immersion I find immersion unnecessary for a deeper understanding of faith in our Lord and the working of the Holy Spirit in a life surrendered to Him - freed by Jesus death and resurrection. If it is something that I must do then it takes away from the gift of grace and becomes works making the gift of no effect.

Do you realize you're teaching that all mentions of baptism in the Word can be ignored? If natural childbirth takes the place of immersion baptism, that would mean that God forces baptism on everyone. It also means that every mention of baptism, other than baptism of the Holy Spirit, is redundant. They're just empty words and phrases that mean absolutely nothing. You're taking away and adding things to the bible to suit your own belief's. Jesus was baptised and regardless if it was full immersion or just a sprinkling, you're saying it isn't necessary because we were all baptised at birth. Your own belief that sprinkling is all that is needed is also redundant if natural childbirth takes the place of full immersion baptism.

You're teaching something here that isn't biblical.

Where do you see that I am saying that all mention of baptism should be ignored? I have not indicated that anywhere!

I am saying that the water and the blood that flowed from Jesus side is what cleanses me. That is all the cleansing I need for my sin. I do not have to go through any other ceremony because it was done once for all. We do infant baptism a ceremony/sacrament which you do not agree with and that is fine with me but do not insist that immersion is necessary because all was done on the cross for me and I need not add to what Jesus did on the cross. Did He not say 'It is done!' once for all?

You need to stop doing that. Nowhere in any of my posts did I say immersion was necessary.

Why then the disagreement over sprinkling or pouring of water, infant baptism or for those who choose immersion or those who feel it is not necessary at all? Yet perhaps it is the predominance of baptists on TV and on this forum but I turn off the programme when I am inundated with 'You must be baptized' or feel less than adequate in the eyes of baptists and certainly not fulfilling the 'true gospel'- but not in the eyes of God. I have seen too many who make a mockery of the whole immersion ceremony to think that there is any reverence in it for some. My opinion for what it is worth. If I put words in your mouth forgive me but do not belittle the act of infant baptism that many denominations adhere to and yes in some it is pouring and in some it is a dipped finger and water added to the forehead of the infant and in some it is sprinkling. But when the age of accountability is achieved all answer for themselves no matter if it is a laughing matter or one of serious adherence to the teachings of the Bible through immersion or uttering their faith by word of mouth to follow Jesus and accept Him as Saviour and Lord. A difference in the profession of faith before the membership of their chosen denomination - but will the act of baptism alone save? No.

PS I certainly got the impression that you thought it was necessary for baptism by immersion with your quotes from the gospels.

[Guest man]

Why then the disagreement over sprinkling or pouring of water, infant baptism or for those who choose immersion or those who feel it is not necessary at all? Yet perhaps it is the predominance of baptists on TV and on this forum but I turn off the programme when I am inundated with 'You must be baptized' or feel less than adequate in the eyes of baptists and certainly not fulfilling the 'true gospel'- but not in the eyes of God. I have seen too many who make a mockery of the whole immersion ceremony to think that there is any reverence in it for some. My opinion for what it is worth. If I put words in your mouth forgive me but do not belittle the act of infant baptism that many denominations adhere to and yes in some it is pouring and in some it is a dipped finger and water added to the forehead of the infant and in some it is sprinkling. But when the age of accountability is achieved all answer for themselves no matter if it is a laughing matter or one of serious adherence to the teachings of the Bible through immersion or uttering their faith by word of mouth to follow Jesus and accept Him as Saviour and Lord. A difference in the profession of faith before the membership of their chosen denomination - but will the act of baptism alone save? No.

PS I certainly got the impression that you thought it was necessary for baptism by immersion with your quotes from the gospels.

You need to stop transferring your animosity for others, to me. I never said any of the things you claim. The only thing I disagree with here is that natural childbirth takes the place of baptism.

.

PS I certainly got the impression that you thought it was necessary for baptism by immersion with your quotes from the gospels.

Do you see what you said there?

"Quotes from the Gospels".

You didn't get those impressions from me. You got them from the Word of God. The Lord is speaking to you through His Word and you're attributing those words to me. You need to stop doing that and start paying attention.

Sometimes we get so wrapped up in our own little world that we block out everything around us, including the Word of God. I'm just as guilty of this as the next person. When our views are in conflict with the Word of God, we need to recognize that our views need to be reevaluated. I'm no stranger to this. I'm not above being taught. I've learned many thngs since coming to this forum. Because of the truth I was and still am exposed too in the forums here, I've had to let go of certain beliefs. I'm not saying you have to let go of yours, but I believe to Lord is trying to get your attention. I would advise you to listen. Not to me or anyone else, but to the Word. The Word is the One that gave you the impression. Pay attention to that.

.

[GoldenEagle]

My issue with immersion is that those of other faiths who do not immerse may feel it is necessary for salvation because of the way it is presented and taught by the baptists of differing denominations. While I am secure in my faith and knowledge of Salvation and have no need for the process of immersion I find immersion unnecessary for a deeper understanding of faith in our Lord and the working of the Holy Spirit in a life surrendered to Him - freed by Jesus death and resurrection. If it is something that I must do then it takes away from the gift of grace and becomes works making the gift of no effect.

And yes I have read ALL of your posts GE.

PS nowhere does it specify full immersion. They go in and out - walking in and walking out but not lying down into water. There was not that much in many places - you ignore that fact. But as the priest did see Heb 9:19-26 for the purifying or cleansing - it is all ceremonial even immersion.

I realize we'll have to agree to disagree here regarding immersion. Yes it is not necessary for salvation but it is IMO the best way to baptize. Do I take issue with those who do it differenlty? I think immersion is the best way to do baptism but I wouldn't break fellowship with Beleivers over this issue (as I said I have many friends who believe/practice infant baptism, sprinkling, and pouring).

By "It" I assume you mean Scripture. Possible to get clarification on this in bold? How does one go in and out of the water? Without being immersed? Curious.

God bless,

GE

[Littlelambseativy]

Sorry man but on this I agree to disagree with what you stated. I fully agree with what Jack Kelly said and I am convicted to believe that Jesus fulfilled all on the cross and I need do nothing else. Do things for Him - yes out of love but not out of duty or or obligation.

I merely quoted your defence of immersion by what the Gospels said and that was under the law. Paul certainly did not baptize many.

No, I disagree with you and your comment.

[Guest man]

Sorry man but on this I agree to disagree with what you stated. I fully agree with what Jack Kelly said and I am convicted to believe that Jesus fulfilled all on the cross and I need do nothing else. Do things for Him - yes out of love but not out of duty or or obligation.

I merely quoted your defence of immersion by what the Gospels said and that was under the law. Paul certainly did not baptize many.

No, I disagree with you and your comment.

Follow your convictions.

[Littlelambseativy]

My issue with immersion is that those of other faiths who do not immerse may feel it is necessary for salvation because of the way it is presented and taught by the baptists of differing denominations. While I am secure in my faith and knowledge of Salvation and have no need for the process of immersion I find immersion unnecessary for a deeper understanding of faith in our Lord and the working of the Holy Spirit in a life surrendered to Him - freed by Jesus death and resurrection. If it is something that I must do then it takes away from the gift of grace and becomes works making the gift of no effect.

And yes I have read ALL of your posts GE.

PS nowhere does it specify full immersion. They go in and out - walking in and walking out but not lying down into water. There was not that much in many places - you ignore that fact. But as the priest did see Heb 9:19-26 for the purifying or cleansing - it is all ceremonial even immersion.

I realize we'll have to agree to disagree here regarding immersion. Yes it is not necessary for salvation but it is IMO the best way to baptize. Do I take issue with those who do it differenlty? I think immersion is the best way to do baptism but I wouldn't break fellowship with Beleivers over this issue (as I said I have many friends who believe/practice infant baptism, sprinkling, and pouring).

By "It" I assume you mean Scripture. Possible to get clarification on this in bold? How does one go in and out of the water? Without being immersed? Curious.

God bless,

GE

I can certainly walk into a water and stand hip deep (if the Jordan was that deep at the time) and not be fully immersed and have someone scoop water in the hand and pour it over my head or shoulders as a symbol of washing and walk out of the water without being fully immersed. But to disagree without loosing fellowship and not 'through the baby out with the bath water" so to speak - I agree. I cannot see that we will ever agree on this issue and neither will change the mind of one who believes in immersion or one who believes it is done and not necessary yet have infant baptism but both are sacraments of the other denomination. Since it is not what determines our salvation but the acceptance of Jesus and His redeeming act of grace on the cross, we can agree to disagree without either being told their denomination is wrong in their interpretation of a ceremony not essential to salvation.

[Littlelambseativy]

Sorry man but on this I agree to disagree with what you stated. I fully agree with what Jack Kelly said and I am convicted to believe that Jesus fulfilled all on the cross and I need do nothing else. Do things for Him - yes out of love but not out of duty or or obligation.

I merely quoted your defence of immersion by what the Gospels said and that was under the law. Paul certainly did not baptize many.

No, I disagree with you and your comment.

Follow your convictions.

That I am doing and will continue to do as I have done for I do believe JK is correct and immersion or infant baptism is not essential to salvation but are ceremonies of denominations.

If you are implying that i agree with immersion you are wrong because I do not see that at all. Jesus did it all on the cross - Done any act of mine will not give me greater standing in heaven than the one who was never baptized at all.