GoldenEagle Posted June 9, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.81 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 9, 2013 Post #29 also clarifies things a bit further regarding grace and the law. This isn't a discussion that says we're free to do whatever we want. We are free to do God's will - love God and love people. Does God love me less when I sin? No. God's love doesn't change. Does my relationship to Him need to be restored when I sin - meaning I need to ask Him for forgiveness to have a right relationship with Him? Yes. God's love is everlasting... Romans 8:37-3937 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted June 9, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.81 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 9, 2013 I know you and Tim Keller are not saying this, but it almost comes across as people are preaching that we shouldn't try to avoid sin and live morally, because it is somehow not necessary? I know I'm not saying that. And the OP wasn't about that either. Why does it come across that way for you? Curious. The OP was about relying on Christ to save AND sanctify us. Of and in ourselves we cannot change our hearts to become more like God. This takes the workings of the Holy Spirit in our lives. Your {Bopeep} reaction is similar to mine. It is like we have people preaching to us that there is no need to resist sin. All we need to do is believe in Jesus, and all will be ok. It is like they are turning things around on us and saying that if we are resisting sin, we are the ones with the problem, because we are prideful and don't fully trust in Christ. I know within myself that is a lie, and I won't receive it, but I know how enticing that message is. Again who said that? Again the OP is about trusting God to change our lives and hearts - to conform to Christ. It's not about simply resisting sin - but about falling deeper in love with Christ which in turn gives us the desire (heart change) to follow his ways (commands). Like this... A. We follow God's ways so that He will bless us and look favorably upon us. The focus here is our effort. Or... B. We agree with God's Holy Spirit that only through His strength we can change and follow Christ. The focus here is on Christ's accomplishments, not our efforts (or failures because no effort of ours can save or change us). Our lives are holy not because of what WE do... But instead because what God is doing in us - HE is making us holy. Because He makes us more like His Son Jesus Christ we fall deeper in love with God and we WANT to do things that please Him (follow His commands for example - love God, love people. ) Do you get what I'm trying to say/discuss brother? God bless, GE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmuffet Posted June 9, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 34 Topic Count: 1,991 Topics Per Day: 0.48 Content Count: 48,689 Content Per Day: 11.81 Reputation: 30,343 Days Won: 226 Joined: 01/11/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted June 9, 2013 I know you and Tim Keller are not saying this, but it almost comes across as people are preaching that we shouldn't try to avoid sin and live morally, because it is somehow not necessary? I know I'm not saying that. And the OP wasn't about that either. Why does it come across that way for you? Curious. The OP was about relying on Christ to save AND sanctify us. Of and in ourselves we cannot change our hearts to become more like God. This takes the workings of the Holy Spirit in our lives. Your {Bopeep} reaction is similar to mine. It is like we have people preaching to us that there is no need to resist sin. All we need to do is believe in Jesus, and all will be ok. It is like they are turning things around on us and saying that if we are resisting sin, we are the ones with the problem, because we are prideful and don't fully trust in Christ. I know within myself that is a lie, and I won't receive it, but I know how enticing that message is. Again who said that? Again the OP is about trusting God to change our lives and hearts - to conform to Christ. It's not about simply resisting sin - but about falling deeper in love with Christ which in turn gives us the desire (heart change) to follow his ways (commands). Like this... A. We follow God's ways so that He will bless us and look favorably upon us. The focus here is our effort. Or... B. We agree with God's Holy Spirit that only through His strength we can change and follow Christ. The focus here is on Christ's accomplishments, not our efforts (or failures because no effort of ours can save or change us). Our lives are holy not because of what WE do... But instead because what God is doing in us - HE is making us holy. Because He makes us more like His Son Jesus Christ we fall deeper in love with God and we WANT to do things that please Him (follow His commands for example - love God, love people. ) Do you get what I'm trying to say/discuss brother? God bless, GE Well,I am not Butero and I am not your brother but I see what you are saying GE and I agree.God is working in us from the inside out.I know this for a fact because I am not the same person I was 10 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted June 11, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.81 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 11, 2013 Well,I am not Butero and I am not your brother but I see what you are saying GE and I agree.God is working in us from the inside out.I know this for a fact because I am not the same person I was 10 years ago. Amen Sister! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayyycuuup Posted June 13, 2013 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 68 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,384 Content Per Day: 0.37 Reputation: 155 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/20/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/22/1996 Share Posted June 13, 2013 Here's a thought... What do you think? "If you're avoiding sin and living morally so that God will have to bless you and save you, then you may be looking to Jesus as a teacher, model, and helper, but ironically you are avoiding him as Savior. You are trusting in your own goodness rather than in Jesus for your standing with God." - Tim Keller This scripture comes to mind. Romans 5:20-22 & 6:1-2 "Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?" I wonder what your thoughts concerning the quote is GE? From what I get out of it, it is someone who is living in denial of their sin; not accepting that they are always, no matter how "good" they are, in need of God's grace and sufficiency. But I do think that the beginning of the quote is quite interesting, as I do not know anyone who tries to live morally just in concordance of receiving a blessing. I think God's blessings are more then just "receiving something" tangible. Each day we are blessed, with life, love, food, etc. Maybe I am not understanding the point of the OP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted June 14, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.81 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 14, 2013 Here's a thought... What do you think? "If you're avoiding sin and living morally so that God will have to bless you and save you, then you may be looking to Jesus as a teacher, model, and helper, but ironically you are avoiding him as Savior. You are trusting in your own goodness rather than in Jesus for your standing with God." - Tim Keller This scripture comes to mind. Romans 5:20-22 & 6:1-2 "Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?" I wonder what your thoughts concerning the quote is GE? From what I get out of it, it is someone who is living in denial of their sin; not accepting that they are always, no matter how "good" they are, in need of God's grace and sufficiency. But I do think that the beginning of the quote is quite interesting, as I do not know anyone who tries to live morally just in concordance of receiving a blessing. I think God's blessings are more then just "receiving something" tangible. Each day we are blessed, with life, love, food, etc. Maybe I am not understanding the point of the OP? Sure thanks for asking Jacob. The OP to me speaks of trying to DO God's things to earn God's favor. Meaning that as if somehow my good works would positively affect God's reaction to or view of me. I don't view God as someone who's always out to get me. I view Him as my Father. God's grace is freely given to me. My salvation was 100% costly to God through Jesus Christ and 100% free to me. I believe God will give me blessings if He so chooses. However, I also believe God allows trials and tribulations to test my character - ultimately resulting in my good. No matter how much I exemplify good character ultimately I MUST rely on the righteousness of my Creator. No matter how much I avoid sin I MUST rely on the strength of my Savior. I do not trust my goodness but His graciousness. I can never earn God's blessings. But I CAN accept them when He chooses to give them to me. Once I'm saved or born again (terms we love to use) the process doesn't stop - I don't take over again my life again. God through the Holy Spirit is day by day, moment by moment, lesson by lesson molding me to conform to Jesus Christ. Of my own strength I can do nothing. Of my own strength I cannot resist temptation. Of my own strength I cannot overcome. But through Christ we can resist temptation. Through His strength I can overcome! Rom. 8:37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 1 Cor. 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it. Phil 4:13 I can do all things through Him who strengthens me. Do you see my heart brother? What do you think? God bless, GE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayyycuuup Posted June 14, 2013 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 68 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,384 Content Per Day: 0.37 Reputation: 155 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/20/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/22/1996 Share Posted June 14, 2013 Here's a thought... What do you think? "If you're avoiding sin and living morally so that God will have to bless you and save you, then you may be looking to Jesus as a teacher, model, and helper, but ironically you are avoiding him as Savior. You are trusting in your own goodness rather than in Jesus for your standing with God." - Tim Keller This scripture comes to mind. Romans 5:20-22 & 6:1-2 "Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?" I wonder what your thoughts concerning the quote is GE? From what I get out of it, it is someone who is living in denial of their sin; not accepting that they are always, no matter how "good" they are, in need of God's grace and sufficiency. But I do think that the beginning of the quote is quite interesting, as I do not know anyone who tries to live morally just in concordance of receiving a blessing. I think God's blessings are more then just "receiving something" tangible. Each day we are blessed, with life, love, food, etc. Maybe I am not understanding the point of the OP? Sure thanks for asking Jacob. The OP to me speaks of trying to DO God's things to earn God's favor. Meaning that as if somehow my good works would positively affect God's reaction to or view of me. I don't view God as someone who's always out to get me. I view Him as my Father. God's grace is freely given to me. My salvation was 100% costly to God through Jesus Christ and 100% free to me. I believe God will give me blessings if He so chooses. However, I also believe God allows trials and tribulations to test my character - ultimately resulting in my good. No matter how much I exemplify good character ultimately I MUST rely on the righteousness of my Creator. No matter how much I avoid sin I MUST rely on the strength of my Savior. I do not trust my goodness but His graciousness. I can never earn God's blessings. But I CAN accept them when He chooses to give them to me. Once I'm saved or born again (terms we love to use) the process doesn't stop - I don't take over again my life again. God through the Holy Spirit is day by day, moment by moment, lesson by lesson molding me to conform to Jesus Christ. Of my own strength I can do nothing. Of my own strength I cannot resist temptation. Of my own strength I cannot overcome. But through Christ we can resist temptation. Through His strength I can overcome! Rom. 8:37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 1 Cor. 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it. Phil 4:13 I can do all things through Him who strengthens me. Do you see my heart brother? What do you think? God bless, GE Yes and Amen. Thank you for the clarification GE. From what I gather, your reapplying Christ, to even us as believers. Because it it ultimately Him who does and wills us to do good things etc. Favor, love and grace- all consist of God's everlasting, unending and freely given things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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