The Confusing thing about the Rapture is...

[Floatingaxe]

 

 

Sorry enoob - no dice, the passage you cited refers to the last days not the Last Day. 

 

For your position to be accurate, you would have to display that believers in Christ in the Church Age can be subjected to God's wrath.  The Church Age has a last day, and it is not the same "Last Day" that you keep referencing.  And the verse you are quoting is not from the words of Jesus, or a Prophet, or an Apostle, so they cannot be used as doctrine.

 

Your first premise is incorrect. Concrete example: When God directed his wrath upon Pharaoh and Egypt, did he not spare the Israelites in the midst of all the plagues - which interestingly are very similar to the plagues described in Revelation?  We may not be subject to God's wrath, yet we are fully warned to expect tribulation in our lives. Ever wonder why they call it the tribulation?  "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name." Matt 24:9  "I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.” Jn 16:33  The church age ends when the Millennium begins - hence the phrase last day.  There is no such rule that a doctrine is only derived by the words of Jesus, etc. as you so claim. But in order to satisfy your objection, here are more scriptures spoken by Jesus himself:

John 6:39

This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

John 6:40

For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

John 6:44

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 6:54

He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

 

 

 

"Normal" tribulation is the focus of Jesus in His words. This does not refer to the time of Jacob's Trouble, or THE Tribulation. The last day (one of many last days) there in John 6, is in reference to the last day of the Church of Jesus Christ on the earth (this Church age). Tribulation is for the unbelieving world, and Israel will go through it, many of them receiving their Messiah due to the ministrations of the 144,000 and the 2 prophets. The Tribulation period is God's time for dealing with Israel one last time, completing the time allotted for them before Jesus comes to set up His Millennial Kingdom.

[Elhanan]

 

 

 

Sorry enoob - no dice, the passage you cited refers to the last days not the Last Day. 

 

For your position to be accurate, you would have to display that believers in Christ in the Church Age can be subjected to God's wrath.  The Church Age has a last day, and it is not the same "Last Day" that you keep referencing.  And the verse you are quoting is not from the words of Jesus, or a Prophet, or an Apostle, so they cannot be used as doctrine.

 

Your first premise is incorrect. Concrete example: When God directed his wrath upon Pharaoh and Egypt, did he not spare the Israelites in the midst of all the plagues - which interestingly are very similar to the plagues described in Revelation?  We may not be subject to God's wrath, yet we are fully warned to expect tribulation in our lives. Ever wonder why they call it the tribulation?  "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name." Matt 24:9  "I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.” Jn 16:33  The church age ends when the Millennium begins - hence the phrase last day.  There is no such rule that a doctrine is only derived by the words of Jesus, etc. as you so claim. But in order to satisfy your objection, here are more scriptures spoken by Jesus himself:

John 6:39

This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

John 6:40

For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

John 6:44

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 6:54

He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

 

 

 

"Normal" tribulation is the focus of Jesus in His words. This does not refer to the time of Jacob's Trouble, or THE Tribulation. The last day (one of many last days) there in John 6, is in reference to the last day of the Church of Jesus Christ on the earth (this Church age). Tribulation is for the unbelieving world, and Israel will go through it, many of them receiving their Messiah due to the ministrations of the 144,000 and the 2 prophets. The Tribulation period is God's time for dealing with Israel one last time, completing the time allotted for them before Jesus comes to set up His Millennial Kingdom.

 

You have created an artificial distinction not at all supported by the text. The Tribulation period is in fact the primary topic of Matt. 24 so to say that "normal" tribulation does not refer to the Tribulation time frame referenced in Matt 24 is demonstrably false. And yes, the last day is the end of this church age and Jesus stated that he will raise up the believing on the last day which is at the first resurrection not the rapture. May I ask you where does it say in the Bible that there are many last days as you claim? 

[missmuffet]

Jesus is never early and never late--He is right on time. He'll call His Bride the moment God tells Him: "RIDE, SON, RIDE! GO GET YOUR BRIDE!"

YES!!!!  And I can't wait.

[Floatingaxe]

 

 

 

 

Sorry enoob - no dice, the passage you cited refers to the last days not the Last Day. 

 

For your position to be accurate, you would have to display that believers in Christ in the Church Age can be subjected to God's wrath.  The Church Age has a last day, and it is not the same "Last Day" that you keep referencing.  And the verse you are quoting is not from the words of Jesus, or a Prophet, or an Apostle, so they cannot be used as doctrine.

 

Your first premise is incorrect. Concrete example: When God directed his wrath upon Pharaoh and Egypt, did he not spare the Israelites in the midst of all the plagues - which interestingly are very similar to the plagues described in Revelation?  We may not be subject to God's wrath, yet we are fully warned to expect tribulation in our lives. Ever wonder why they call it the tribulation?  "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name." Matt 24:9  "I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.” Jn 16:33  The church age ends when the Millennium begins - hence the phrase last day.  There is no such rule that a doctrine is only derived by the words of Jesus, etc. as you so claim. But in order to satisfy your objection, here are more scriptures spoken by Jesus himself:

John 6:39

This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

John 6:40

For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

John 6:44

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 6:54

He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

 

 

 

"Normal" tribulation is the focus of Jesus in His words. This does not refer to the time of Jacob's Trouble, or THE Tribulation. The last day (one of many last days) there in John 6, is in reference to the last day of the Church of Jesus Christ on the earth (this Church age). Tribulation is for the unbelieving world, and Israel will go through it, many of them receiving their Messiah due to the ministrations of the 144,000 and the 2 prophets. The Tribulation period is God's time for dealing with Israel one last time, completing the time allotted for them before Jesus comes to set up His Millennial Kingdom.

 

You have created an artificial distinction not at all supported by the text. The Tribulation period is in fact the primary topic of Matt. 24 so to say that "normal" tribulation does not refer to the Tribulation time frame referenced in Matt 24 is demonstrably false. And yes, the last day is the end of this church age and Jesus stated that he will raise up the believing on the last day which is at the first resurrection not the rapture. May I ask you where does it say in the Bible that there are many last days as you claim? 

 

 

There's nothing artificial in taking God's word at face value...not to mention prayerfully studying it. Jesus tells us that we will all suffer trouble (tribulation) in our lives as His followers, but we are talking about the specific period in time that He refers to as a time of calamity like none other, and we refer to that as THE Great Tribulation.

 

The Rapture IS the first resurrection!

[Elhanan]

You have created an artificial distinction not at all supported by the text. The Tribulation period is in fact the primary topic of Matt. 24 so to say that "normal" tribulation does not refer to the Tribulation time frame referenced in Matt 24 is demonstrably false. And yes, the last day is the end of this church age and Jesus stated that he will raise up the believing on the last day which is at the first resurrection not the rapture. May I ask you where does it say in the Bible that there are many last days as you claim? 

 

 

 

There's nothing artificial in taking God's word at face value...not to mention prayerfully studying it. Jesus tells us that we will all suffer trouble (tribulation) in our lives as His followers, but we are talking about the specific period in time that He refers to as a time of calamity like none other, and we refer to that as THE Great Tribulation.

 

The Rapture IS the first resurrection!

 

I clearly pointed out to you that the word tribulation occurs within the text of the Tribulation period described in Matt 24 which depicts the entire 7 year tribulation period, yet you persist in ignoring the context.  You also do not supply scripture refs for your beliefs despite my requests, therefore it is useless to engage in further discussion with you since you are bent on giving your opinion without specific scriptural support.

[Floatingaxe]

 

You have created an artificial distinction not at all supported by the text. The Tribulation period is in fact the primary topic of Matt. 24 so to say that "normal" tribulation does not refer to the Tribulation time frame referenced in Matt 24 is demonstrably false. And yes, the last day is the end of this church age and Jesus stated that he will raise up the believing on the last day which is at the first resurrection not the rapture. May I ask you where does it say in the Bible that there are many last days as you claim? 

 

 

 

There's nothing artificial in taking God's word at face value...not to mention prayerfully studying it. Jesus tells us that we will all suffer trouble (tribulation) in our lives as His followers, but we are talking about the specific period in time that He refers to as a time of calamity like none other, and we refer to that as THE Great Tribulation.

 

The Rapture IS the first resurrection!

 

I clearly pointed out to you that the word tribulation occurs within the text of the Tribulation period described in Matt 24 which depicts the entire 7 year tribulation period, yet you persist in ignoring the context.  You also do not supply scripture refs for your beliefs despite my requests, therefore it is useless to engage in further discussion with you since you are bent on giving your opinion without specific scriptural support.

 

 

 

I am not ignoring anything, especially Matthew 24:21---For then there will be great tribulation (affliction, distress, and oppression) such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now—no, and never will be [again]. This describes the period of time that we call The Great Tribulation, which is something totally apart from the "normal" tribulation that we are all promised---and not promised deliverance from.

[Elhanan]

Don't know what you mean by "normal" tribulation.  Perhaps you mean having a flat tire on the way to church?  But seriously, you claim that the [normal] tribulation Jesus mentions in Jn 16:33 is something other than the kind of tribulation seen in the great tribulation period.  I would not make such a distinction simply because in Jn 16:33 Jesus is directly addressing his disciples whom according to tradition all died martyr's deaths except for John who was reportedly burned in oil but that didn't kill him so he was exiled to Patmos. So "normal" tribulation must mean the kinds of tortures and deaths that the disciples experienced - which is exactly the kind of tribulation described in the great tribulation period. There is no difference.
 

[Floatingaxe]

 

Don't know what you mean by "normal" tribulation.  Perhaps you mean having a flat tire on the way to church?  But seriously, you claim that the [normal] tribulation Jesus mentions in Jn 16:33 is something other than the kind of tribulation seen in the great tribulation period.  I would not make such a distinction simply because in Jn 16:33 Jesus is directly addressing his disciples whom according to tradition all died martyr's deaths except for John who was reportedly burned in oil but that didn't kill him so he was exiled to Patmos. So "normal" tribulation must mean the kinds of tortures and deaths that the disciples experienced - which is exactly the kind of tribulation described in the great tribulation period. There is no difference.

 

 

 

If you are openly and unashamedly following Jesus, you will know what I am talking about with regard to the kind of tribulation that God is talking about.

 

The time of great tribulation that Jesus is talking about is not what the Body of Christ will have to suffer, as God will be pouring out wrath upon the inhabitants of the earth, for which no one will repent, but become further entrenched in their rejection of God and the gospel message. We are not going to suffer the wrath.

 

There is a huge difference between the tribulations (troubles) we experience as righteous people, and the cataclysms that the unsaved world will experience during the great tribulation that Jesus talks about!

 

1 Thessalonians 5:9

 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

[Elhanan]

 

 

Don't know what you mean by "normal" tribulation.  Perhaps you mean having a flat tire on the way to church?  But seriously, you claim that the [normal] tribulation Jesus mentions in Jn 16:33 is something other than the kind of tribulation seen in the great tribulation period.  I would not make such a distinction simply because in Jn 16:33 Jesus is directly addressing his disciples whom according to tradition all died martyr's deaths except for John who was reportedly burned in oil but that didn't kill him so he was exiled to Patmos. So "normal" tribulation must mean the kinds of tortures and deaths that the disciples experienced - which is exactly the kind of tribulation described in the great tribulation period. There is no difference.

 

 

 

If you are openly and unashamedly following Jesus, you will know what I am talking about with regard to the kind of tribulation that God is talking about.

 

The time of great tribulation that Jesus is talking about is not what the Body of Christ will have to suffer, as God will be pouring out wrath upon the inhabitants of the earth, for which no one will repent, but become further entrenched in their rejection of God and the gospel message. We are not going to suffer the wrath.

 

There is a huge difference between the tribulations (troubles) we experience as righteous people, and the cataclysms that the unsaved world will experience during the great tribulation that Jesus talks about!

 

1 Thessalonians 5:9

 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

You are fond of making claims which are not supported by Scripture - a risky proposition at best - and a dangerous one considering Rev 22:18. For instance, you claim that no one will repent during the great tribulation.  How do you know that?  So say out of the millions of people still on the earth at that time, not a single soul will repent?  Is your idea specifically stated so in the Bible or are you just speculating?  If it is in the scriptures, please provide reference.  You insist on saying that believers are not subject to God's wrath.  I agree that faithful believers are not subject to God's wrath and I previously countered this point in my previous post but you keep coming back with the same robotic response with no additional counterpoint on your part which does not buttress your argument.  As I said to you earlier, the Israelites were not subject to God's wrath upon Pharaoh and the Egyptians but that does not mean that they did not have to live through it.  Finally, I pointed out to you that the original disciples of Jesus were specifically told by him that they themselves would have tribulation.  You dismiss the idea that the tribulation that Jesus spoke to them about is the same kind of tribulation that people will experience in the tribulation/great tribulation.  I pointed out to you that all the disciples except for John died a martyr's death - the same kind of deaths described in Revelation during the tribulation period.  I will provide you references which I hope will settle the matter.  You claim that no one will repent or that the church/saints will be absent during the time of God's wrath during the great tribulation, then examine Rev. 14.  In verse 8, God's wrath is directed on Babylon the great and she has fallen.  God's wrath is directed at the worshippers of the beast verses 9-10.   Yet in verses 12-13 we find reference to the saints who are present and faithful and still persevering - right in the midst of God's wrath being poured out.  If you find yourself still protesting against my argument, I refer you to Rev 7:14: "I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."  It is hard to ignore or dismiss the plain teaching of Scripture.

[Floatingaxe]

 

 

 

Don't know what you mean by "normal" tribulation.  Perhaps you mean having a flat tire on the way to church?  But seriously, you claim that the [normal] tribulation Jesus mentions in Jn 16:33 is something other than the kind of tribulation seen in the great tribulation period.  I would not make such a distinction simply because in Jn 16:33 Jesus is directly addressing his disciples whom according to tradition all died martyr's deaths except for John who was reportedly burned in oil but that didn't kill him so he was exiled to Patmos. So "normal" tribulation must mean the kinds of tortures and deaths that the disciples experienced - which is exactly the kind of tribulation described in the great tribulation period. There is no difference.

 

 

 

If you are openly and unashamedly following Jesus, you will know what I am talking about with regard to the kind of tribulation that God is talking about.

 

The time of great tribulation that Jesus is talking about is not what the Body of Christ will have to suffer, as God will be pouring out wrath upon the inhabitants of the earth, for which no one will repent, but become further entrenched in their rejection of God and the gospel message. We are not going to suffer the wrath.

 

There is a huge difference between the tribulations (troubles) we experience as righteous people, and the cataclysms that the unsaved world will experience during the great tribulation that Jesus talks about!

 

1 Thessalonians 5:9

 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

You are fond of making claims which are not supported by Scripture - a risky proposition at best - and a dangerous one considering Rev 22:18. For instance, you claim that no one will repent during the great tribulation.  How do you know that? So say out of the millions of people still on the earth at that time, not a single soul will repent?  Is your idea specifically stated so in the Bible or are you just speculating?  If it is in the scriptures, please provide reference.  You insist on saying that believers are not subject to God's wrath.  I agree that faithful believers are not subject to God's wrath and I previously countered this point in my previous post but you keep coming back with the same robotic response with no additional counterpoint on your part which does not buttress your argument.  As I said to you earlier, the Israelites were not subject to God's wrath upon Pharaoh and the Egyptians but that does not mean that they did not have to live through it.  Finally, I pointed out to you that the original disciples of Jesus were specifically told by him that they themselves would have tribulation.  You dismiss the idea that the tribulation that Jesus spoke to them about is the same kind of tribulation that people will experience in the tribulation/great tribulation.  I pointed out to you that all the disciples except for John died a martyr's death - the same kind of deaths described in Revelation during the tribulation period.  I will provide you references which I hope will settle the matter.  You claim that no one will repent or that the church/saints will be absent during the time of God's wrath during the great tribulation, then examine Rev. 14.  In verse 8, God's wrath is directed on Babylon the great and she has fallen.  God's wrath is directed at the worshippers of the beast verses 9-10.   Yet in verses 12-13 we find reference to the saints who are present and faithful and still persevering - right in the midst of God's wrath being poured out.  If you find yourself still protesting against my argument, I refer you to Rev 7:14: "I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."  It is hard to ignore or dismiss the plain teaching of Scripture.

 

 

 

I am fond of the word of God and nothing I say I believe can be refuted by it. The word of God says several times in Revelation that none of those who suffer the judgments repent. Nothing is ever said of any who repent after suffering any of the judgments God sends. If you have a verse that says any of the wicked repent, I'd like to see it. This said, God is ministering to His people, the Jews at this time, and Israel is saved in the end,

 

Now, as for Israel, the Tribulation is something they will have to encounter, which is why it is referred to as 'Jacob's Trouble'. They are what God refers to there as "the elect', and they are the ones to whom the ministrations of the 144,000 and the 2 prophets are aimed at. It is the time set down for God to finish up His program with the Jews, His elect.

 

What any servant of the Lord, including His own personal disciples He knew when He was on earth, is the kind of tribulation we all need to expect---even martyrdom. However, the Tribulation that is to come is going to be multiple times worse than any man, woman or child has ever experienced before. Believers through the ages have suffered a great many hardships and murders, but in the great tribulation, the entire world will not escape suffering of ALL disasters Jesus mentions---at once. Earthquakes will be no longer limited to one place at a time, but will be global. All men will suffer the same disasters and afflictions to their bodies. No one escapes.

 

It is through the anointed work of the 144,000 and the 2 witnesses that there will be many hearts in Israel turned toward their Messiah, and will be either martyred, or come out of the Tribulation as living survivors, saved by the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

You don't seem to understand that God is all about His people, Israel at this time. God dispenses with the Church Age and reverts to the Law. He works only one dispensation at a time---never two. He is concerned at that time only with His elect, and not the Gentile, whose time is past.

 

Luke 21:24

They will be killed by the sword or sent away as captives to all the nations of the world. And Jerusalem will be trampled down by the Gentiles until the period of the Gentiles comes to an end.