Do Christians go to Hell?

[Guest DRS81]

It only becomes a circled debate when someone refuses to deal with the text as you have demonstrated. You have made your points and I have counter-pointed each of your points.  Unfortunately you have not responded in likewise fashion instead ignoring some of my points when you could simply form you own counterpoint.  You keep claiming to read my mind which I find quite presumptuous on your part as I am open to other views as long as you can provide biblical warrant.  Hatred is not a foregone outcome - we can simply agree to disagree.  I just wish you would address and deal with the scriptural text more in order to have a productive discussion. But since you choose not to, that of course is your prerogative.

 

Alright, I'm gonna try one more time in that a born again Christian cannot lose his salvation. You ignored the bold words that I highlighted in Romans 6:4 "buried" and "baptism into death". What do they mean by buried and death? A few more scriptures for you. John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is NOT condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. Eph 1:13-14 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. 1 Peter 1:3-4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you. - DRS81

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

 

 

What don't you understand though, curious, I thought it agreed with you is why I ask.

 

 

 

You are correct. I misread your post. My bad.

 

Sorry.

 

 

No problem man. Its all good.

 

That sound so funny (hey man, yo man, whats up man?)

[Elhanan]

 

It only becomes a circled debate when someone refuses to deal with the text as you have demonstrated. You have made your points and I have counter-pointed each of your points.  Unfortunately you have not responded in likewise fashion instead ignoring some of my points when you could simply form you own counterpoint.  You keep claiming to read my mind which I find quite presumptuous on your part as I am open to other views as long as you can provide biblical warrant.  Hatred is not a foregone outcome - we can simply agree to disagree.  I just wish you would address and deal with the scriptural text more in order to have a productive discussion. But since you choose not to, that of course is your prerogative.

 

Alright, I'm gonna try one more time in that a born again Christian cannot lose his salvation. You ignored the bold words that I highlighted in Romans 6:4 "buried" and "baptism into death". What do they mean by buried and death? A few more scriptures for you. John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is NOT condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. Eph 1:13-14 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. 1 Peter 1:3-4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you. - DRS81

 

Good of you to continue the discourse.  I don’t expect you or anyone else to change their minds as a result of this discussion based on my experience.  I once believed the same as you - as eternal security of the believer was what I was always taught and I didn’t really question what I was taught.  However when I took a closer look at the scriptures for myself I switched my view point (but it took me a few years to do so) so I don’t expect anyone to instantly change their minds but if it causes them to study further then that’s a good thing.  Enough background for now; let’s take a closer look of Rom 6:4.  I agree yes we were buried with him – a one-time action in the past - through baptism into death.  This means that we are identified with Christ through baptism but does this verse mean that a Christian cannot lose his salvation from that moment on?  I would say no because the verse makes no reference at all to salvation being eternally secure.  The verse only says that our baptism publically symbolizes our profession or identity with Christ.  It does not guarantee that in the future we will not reject or lose our faith.  In fact as I pointed out, the phrase “might walk in newness of life” indicates that a Christian may or may not choose to walk in newness of life.  If he or she fails to walk and abide in Christ there is no promise of eternal life.  1 Jn 2:17 states: “The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.”  Hence belief must be coupled with obedience to God’s will.  (Belief) + (No obedience) = no eternal life.

 

Regarding Jn 3:16  This may be the most misused verse in Scripture as it is commonly used in evangelizing unbelievers.  This verse however is directed to those who are already believers.  The Greek word for “believe” in this verse is pisteuon.  When one parses this verb it is written in the present continuous tense so it is properly translated as “believing” so that everyone who is believing in him shall not perish but have eternal life.  In other words a Christian must be continuing to believe in order to possess eternal life.  A one-time moment of choice made in the past to believe does not guarantee eternal life; instead a Christian must go on believing.  Continuing to trust, continuing to persevere results in one’s salvation.  Re: John 3:18.  The very same Greek word pisteuon is used in verse 18 and therefore the same argument applies to vs. 18.  Therefore the verse should read “he who is believing in him is not judged, but he who is not believing hath been judged already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (YLT)

 

Re: Eph 1:13-14   It would seem that being “sealed” guarantees our inheritance according to this verse.  However, in Paul’s day "sealing" was a legal term. When a document was sealed, it meant it was authentic. The official would roll up the legal document, place a piece of wax to secure it, then press the insignia of his seal into the wax. This was similar to a notary stamp. As long as the document remained closed, and the seal intact, it was considered legally valid. This was to insure that the document was not altered.  Similarly, the Holy Spirit has sealed us UNTIL the time of redemption comes, when we receive our inheritance. Was it possible for a Roman citizen to break the wax seal and tamper with the document? Sure it was. But this would certainly void the document. This is also true of one who breaks the seal of the Holy Spirit.  This is why Paul warned us not to tamper with our seal.  Eph 4:30  “And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.” 

 

Re: 1 Pet 1:3-4   Yes we are born again to an inheritance that is imperishable….but notice to whom Paul is specifically referencing.  1 Pet 1:14 states “As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance,”  1 Pet 2:24 states “He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness.”  By these verses we can see that our inheritance is reserved for those who continue to believe (not just a past moment of belief) by trusting and obeying God by dying to our sins and living righteous lives which is the ongoing process of sanctification.

[Hippie333]

1Jn 2:18  Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:19  They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
1Jn 2:20  But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
1Jn 2:21  I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
1Jn 2:22  Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23  Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
1Jn 2:24  Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
1Jn 2:25  And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

[Guest DRS81]

 

I suggest you go to dictionary.com and start learning the definitions of words and what they mean. You can't just wake up one day and not believe. You can't just wake up one day and become an atheist when yesterday the Holy Spirit has been dwelling inside of you. That's ridiculous and not biblical. Once you've been baptized in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit will never leave you or forsake you. The only difference between your preaching and mine is that I'm looking at definitions of words. Definitions are facts. You however are adding and subtracting to whatever you want scripture to say in your own mind. You must think our God is minimal in size, no?

[Elhanan]

Oh brother, is that REALLY your response? I can tell you are really a novice in this area as who the heck uses dictionary.com to define biblical words??  Oh I forgot - you do!  Do you know what a concordance is?  Do you know what a Hebrew or Greek interlinear is? Have you ever used one? Are you familiar with parsing the language?  I don't think so based on your responses.  You are full of opinions which is fine but as I have demonstrated you can't even make a scriptural argument for your belief.  I counter your argument with scripture for which you provide no scriptural response.  Instead you rely on your opinion. What little scriptural support you have offered, I have countered to which you have no reply except for your personal opinion. Get back to me when you learn how to study your Bible properly as I see that I'm wasting my time. 

[Guest DRS81]

Oh brother, is that REALLY your response? I can tell you are really a novice in this area as who the heck uses dictionary.com to define biblical words??  Oh I forgot - you do!  Do you know what a concordance is?  Do you know what a Hebrew or Greek interlinear is? Have you ever used one? Are you familiar with parsing the language?  I don't think so based on your responses.  You are full of opinions which is fine but as I have demonstrated you can't even make a scriptural argument for your belief.  I counter your argument with scripture for which you provide no scriptural response.  Instead you rely on your opinion. What little scriptural support you have offered, I have countered to which you have no reply except for your personal opinion. Get back to me when you learn how to study your Bible properly as I see that I'm wasting my time. 

 

Like I said, blood and hatred. I also have an older friend, his name is Jon and he also agrees with me. He's well versed and well educated in scripture and he stated this..

 

 

Again we must go back to the scriptures. I believe that walking an aisle and repeating a prayer is not the born again experience. The true born again experience leads to open repentance, confession of sin, and turning to Jesus with your whole heart and giving Him your life. I don't believe in the carnal christian idea.

So if you mean that OSAS is a reality for those truly born again I would agree. Why? Because salvation is of the Lord. That He makes His people volunteers in the Day of His power. No man can come to the Father unless he be drawn. So if the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit are working in perfect harmony to bring a person into the kingdom than this eternal power will hold the person all the way to the end.

Obedience to Christ is the by product of being born again. In John 16: 8 "When he has come, he will convict the world about sin, about righteousness, and about judgment;"

If you are convicted of your sin and of the righteousness and suitability of Jesus and His Righteousness, and you are preparing for the judgment to come than you are truly saved because the Holy Spirit indwells you and has sealed you for the day of redemption. Eph 1-2:10

We are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus to perform good works. His blood makes us willing to do good works for His glory and to demonstrate to an onlooking world that he are born from above.

 

Charles Stanley also agrees with me. Do you know who Charles Stanley is?

[Elhanan]

 

Oh brother, is that REALLY your response? I can tell you are really a novice in this area as who the heck uses dictionary.com to define biblical words??  Oh I forgot - you do!  Do you know what a concordance is?  Do you know what a Hebrew or Greek interlinear is? Have you ever used one? Are you familiar with parsing the language?  I don't think so based on your responses.  You are full of opinions which is fine but as I have demonstrated you can't even make a scriptural argument for your belief.  I counter your argument with scripture for which you provide no scriptural response.  Instead you rely on your opinion. What little scriptural support you have offered, I have countered to which you have no reply except for your personal opinion. Get back to me when you learn how to study your Bible properly as I see that I'm wasting my time. 

 

Like I said, blood and hatred. I also have an older friend, his name is Jon and he also agrees with me. He's well versed and well educated in scripture and he stated this..

 

 

Again we must go back to the scriptures. I believe that walking an aisle and repeating a prayer is not the born again experience. The true born again experience leads to open repentance, confession of sin, and turning to Jesus with your whole heart and giving Him your life. I don't believe in the carnal christian idea.

So if you mean that OSAS is a reality for those truly born again I would agree. Why? Because salvation is of the Lord. That He makes His people volunteers in the Day of His power. No man can come to the Father unless he be drawn. So if the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit are working in perfect harmony to bring a person into the kingdom than this eternal power will hold the person all the way to the end.

Obedience to Christ is the by product of being born again. In John 16: 8 "When he has come, he will convict the world about sin, about righteousness, and about judgment;"

If you are convicted of your sin and of the righteousness and suitability of Jesus and His Righteousness, and you are preparing for the judgment to come than you are truly saved because the Holy Spirit indwells you and has sealed you for the day of redemption. Eph 1-2:10

We are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus to perform good works. His blood makes us willing to do good works for His glory and to demonstrate to an onlooking world that he are born from above.

 

Charles Stanley also agrees with me. Do you know who Charles Stanley is?

 

No scapegoating allowed DRS81.  I responded to each of your scriptural "proofs" with scripture of my own in a forthright manner.  Did you do the same?  Not at all; instead you resorted to labeling my view as "ridiculous" without even forming a scriptural counter-argument of your own.  Is that not ridiculous?  So it would be better if you stopped casting the first stone.  You also neglected to mention if you really use Bible study tools or rely exclusively on dictionary.com.  And actually I agree with Jon.  A truly born again believer will repent, confess sin and turn to Jesus.  Have I not repeatedly emphasized obedience in my posts?   He says he doesn't believe in a carnal Christian - so do I because if a Christian is habitually carnal he is no longer a Christian.  Our obedience is a result of us being saved however one can later choose to be disobedient at the risk of forfeiting one's salvation.

Oh yes, I know who Charles Stanley is.  He's a divorced pastor who refused to resign his position after his divorce?  Would you care to nominate another "authoritative" role model?

[Hippie333]

Oh brother, is that REALLY your response? I can tell you are really a novice in this area as who the heck uses dictionary.com to define biblical words??  Oh I forgot - you do!  Do you know what a concordance is?  Do you know what a Hebrew or Greek interlinear is? Have you ever used one? Are you familiar with parsing the language?  I don't think so based on your responses.  You are full of opinions which is fine but as I have demonstrated you can't even make a scriptural argument for your belief.  I counter your argument with scripture for which you provide no scriptural response.  Instead you rely on your opinion. What little scriptural support you have offered, I have countered to which you have no reply except for your personal opinion. Get back to me when you learn how to study your Bible properly as I see that I'm wasting my time. 

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[Guest man]

James 5

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 

20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.