The Law and incest.....

[Guest LadyC]

ok let's break this down, ok? i think it will help make things a little more clear.

 

6 ‘None of you shall approach anyone who is near of kin to him, to uncover his nakedness: I am theLord. 

        "anyone who is near of kin" is defined below in the following verses. "uncover his nakedness" means, in the strictest sense, to have sexual relations with.

 

7 The nakedness of your father or the nakedness of your mother you shall not uncover. She is your mother; you shall not uncover her nakedness.

     this is pretty straightforward, isn't it?  

 

 8 The nakedness of your father’s wife you shall not uncover; it is your father’s nakedness. 

      if you uncover your father's wife, you may as well be uncovering your father. this is similar to modern day anaologies... when you sleep with someone, you're also sleeping with every person they've ever slept with. see the connection? at the very least, it is disrespecting your father to sleep with his wife. and if his wife is also your mother, see verse 7.

 

9 The nakedness of your sister, the daughter of your father, or the daughter of your mother, whether born at home or elsewhere, their nakedness you shall not uncover.

     nothing mysterious here. siblings and half-siblings are off limits. the word incest is not used in the bible at all, but this is where incest laws originated. you can't sleep with your mother, your father, your sister.

 

 10 The nakedness of your son’s daughter or your daughter’s daughter, their nakedness you shall not uncover; for theirs is your own nakedness. 

     no sex between you and your child or grandchild... aka your direct descendants. they are your own flesh and blood.  

 

 

11 The nakedness of your father’s wife’s daughter, begotten by your father—she is your sister—you shall not uncover her nakedness. 

your step-sister is also off limits. even though there is no blood relation, your step-sister is, legally, the father's daughter... and thus, your sister.

 

12 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father’s sister; she is near of kin to your father. 

      now THIS is something worth paying very close attention here. don't mess with your father's sister... she is your aunt. who is she near kin to? NOT YOU! she's near kin to your father, because she is your father's sister. it disrespects your father to sleep with his near of kin. totally forbidden, even though she is not your own "near relative". the aunt is an addendum to the near kin laws... but the only addendum. 

 

13 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your mother’s sister, for she is near of kin to your mother. 

      same as verse 12.

 

14 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father’s brother. You shall not approach his wife; she is your aunt.

    just as to uncover your father's wife would be the same as uncovering your father, in this instance, if you uncover your uncle's wife, you're uncovering your uncle. your uncle is your father's near kin.

 

15 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your daughter-in-law—she is your son’s wife—you shall not uncover her nakedness. 

      same concept as above. if you strip your son's wife down, you might as well be stripping down your son. since the son is your descendant, that is your near kin. sleeping with your son's wife is the same as sleeping with your son. incestuous and forbidden because your descendants are your near kin.

 

 

16 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your brother’s wife; it is your brother’s nakedness. 

       your brother is your near kin, so sleeping with her is the same as sleeping with your brother.

 

17 You shall not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter, nor shall you take her son’s daughter or her daughter’s daughter, to uncover her nakedness. They are near of kin to her. It is wickedness. 

      you are not to have sex with both a woman and HER near kin. because just as you're sleeping with everyone that your partner has ever slept with, they're sleeping with everyone you ever slept with, too. so if you sleep with a woman and her daughter or granddaughter, you have just caused one of those two women to commit incest. 

 

 

18 Nor shall you take a woman as a rival to her sister, to uncover her nakedness while the other is alive

now, we can go backwards in time to before the law was established and point out that jacob married two sisters, and they were certainly rivals. this can not be counted against jacob as sin, though, because there was no law against it at the time. nevertheless, he had quite his share of heartache and misery because the two sisters were in constant competition for his affection. 

 

that concludes the levitical portion of laws relating to incest. the rest of the sexual prohibitions concern other deviations. what is clear from the above scriptures is that God commands us not to have sex with someone who is a close relative... and according to God's own laws, a close relative is defined as a sibling, a child, grandchild, parent or grandparent. further defined, a close relative's spouse is considered by God to be the same as the close relative. this is completely within reason, because God says that when we marry, we become ONE with our spouse. furthermore, we are prohibited also from having sex with a father's or mothers' sibling... but it is noted in the same breath (in the same verse) that your aunt is not your own close relative. nowhere is there any further extrapolation in the list of what relatives you are forbidden from marrying.

 

it is very late now. i have to be up at 4 a.m., and that's only five hours from now. so goodnight and sweet dreams to all.

 

 

 

 

[Guest LadyC]

 

No,the Bible does not say anything about cousins marrying.But it is not safe.Especially first cousins.Their can be genetic problems.Most nations have strict law regarding first cousins marrying.The Bible tells us to obey the laws.I am not sure about second cousins.

 

No,the Bible does not say anything about cousins marrying

Wrong, the OT lists many cousins who married, for example Jacob married two of his cousins, Rachel and Leah. Joseph and Mary were cousins, as I pointed out before.

 

But it is not safe

Wrong. It can be much safer than other groups of people who are not related, as pointed out earlier.

 

Their can be genetic problems

You might have me on this one point, but any two people can have such problems. For example, a person with Huntington's disease has a 50/50 chance of passing the deadly disease to their offstring.

 

Most nations have strict law regarding first cousins marrying

Wrong. No nation has across-the-board prohibitions against cousin marriages. Certain states within the USA prohibit cousin marriages, as opposed to Europe, which has no laws against such unions.

 

I am not sure about second cousins.

That is the only thing you have claimed that I agree with. DId you read anything that has been posted in this thread before you posted?

 

 

welcome back to the thread, KC02. i'd like to add to what you said about the nations... there are certain asian countries that prohibit first cousins from marrying... i can never remember if it is china or japan that prohibits it. it is one or the other, but not both. and the phillipines prohibits marriage between cousins. and... and there are religious laws in some middle eastern countries regarding cousin marriage, but only on one side of the family. i think it's forbidden to marry a maternal cousin, but not to marry a paternal cousin. i may have that backwards. you'd probably know the answer better than i.

 

but to my knowledge, there are no other countries ANYWHERE in the world that prohibit first cousin marriages. and you know as well as i do how much time and research we have done trying to gather legal information for all countries.

 

not illegal anywhere in europe.

not illegal anywhere in canada.

not illegal anywhere in australia.

or in spain. 

or in mexico.

or in the middle east except where prohibited by religious law.

 

and for anyone who might wonder regarding 2nd cousins, there's not even an increased genetic risk at all. none, nada, zilch. "unrelated" couples share 1/33 of their genetic code. 2nd cousins share 1/32. experts agree that this amounts to nothing more than the same background risk as any two unrelated people.

[KC02]

 

 

No,the Bible does not say anything about cousins marrying.But it is not safe.Especially first cousins.Their can be genetic problems.Most nations have strict law regarding first cousins marrying.The Bible tells us to obey the laws.I am not sure about second cousins.

 

No,the Bible does not say anything about cousins marrying

Wrong, the OT lists many cousins who married, for example Jacob married two of his cousins, Rachel and Leah. Joseph and Mary were cousins, as I pointed out before.

 

But it is not safe

Wrong. It can be much safer than other groups of people who are not related, as pointed out earlier.

 

Their can be genetic problems

You might have me on this one point, but any two people can have such problems. For example, a person with Huntington's disease has a 50/50 chance of passing the deadly disease to their offstring.

 

Most nations have strict law regarding first cousins marrying

Wrong. No nation has across-the-board prohibitions against cousin marriages. Certain states within the USA prohibit cousin marriages, as opposed to Europe, which has no laws against such unions.

 

I am not sure about second cousins.

That is the only thing you have claimed that I agree with. DId you read anything that has been posted in this thread before you posted?

 

 

welcome back to the thread, KC02. i'd like to add to what you said about the nations... there are certain asian countries that prohibit first cousins from marrying... i can never remember if it is china or japan that prohibits it. it is one or the other, but not both. and the phillipines prohibits marriage between cousins. and... and there are religious laws in some middle eastern countries regarding cousin marriage, but only on one side of the family. i think it's forbidden to marry a maternal cousin, but not to marry a paternal cousin. i may have that backwards. you'd probably know the answer better than i.

 

 

 

I'm not certain that any of these countries have across-the-board prohibitions, except maybe the Philippines. China does some weird geneological reckoning. They consider a cousin on one side (paternal I think) to be like a brother or sister, and the cousin on the other side to be distant enough to marry. Of course, genetically, they are the same.

[MissPlaced_56]

I come bearing an olive branch...and hoping to mend a few fences if at all possible at this point...

I am a work in progress as are we all, i don't pretend to know everything, if i gave that impression then i'm truely sorry ..... nor am i so foolish as to not know that life is a  constant learning process.....

 

Thanks to your willingness to share your opinions with me... i now know that cousin to cousin relationships in GODS eyes aren't considered "incest"....

I have been very blessed to have loving,kind,wise ,and truthful, honest counsel there for me.

 

IN trying not to cause hard feeling's..perhaps trying to hard,,it would appear that, thats exactly what i've done.....for this I do sincerely apologise .

 

So now i'm going to be blunt....no more beating around the bush.....

 

I'm NOT going to apologise for my upbringing ,that would be a slap in the faces of my family.

I didn't make a personal attack on anybody here. and  wouldn't.

My concern's are valid and real..not a mask for bias and judgement, I don't play pathetic games.

I'm nothing if not honest,perhaps too honest for  my own good at times.

I wouldn't make a very good diplomat , i speak plainly and simply and from my heart.

I heard a phase long ago that goes like this"So you want to be great,then learn how to heal people, to hurt people is easy" to me this makes alot of sense. and is how i live my life.

 

TO Aldeberan...I Thank you so much for the  time you took to go out of you're way to explain your thought's to me!

 

 one more thing, just to make it crystal clear, i'm not interested in the "to be great part" of that phrase, it's the rest of it that i live my life by....

Matt:22:v 37.....

GOD BLESS YOU EACH AND EVERYONE OF YOU!

[Fez]

I learned a lot from this thread, especially about my misconceptions, biblical or other. Enough to make me do some of my own reading, not to debate the point, but just to learn a bit more.

 

 

 

Yes, you can marry a first cousin in South Africa.

Marriage is prohibited between persons related to a common ancestor if one of them is related in the first degree to that common ancestor. Marriage is thus forbidden between brother and sister, uncle and niece, aunt and nephew, and so on.

It is not forbidden between cousins.

(from Butterworth's Family Law Service, section A44)

 

 

 

[GoldenEagle]

Golden Eagle, i Especially want to Thank You, for your very well thought out explanation to me.

For having the graciousness to understand that I didn't post this to Judge, or berate anyone.. i was simply taken aback at the replies ...."My bible is for reading, Not for  beating the cornflakes out of others"..lol

GBU......

Miss

 

GBU too Miss.

We're all God's work in progress. I think I understood your heart in discussing this kind of touchy subject to some.

 

In Christ,

GE

[GoldenEagle]

 

The passage that deals with incest in the Bible is as follows I believe. There may be others.

 

Lev. 18:6-18

 

¹⁷ You shall not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter, nor shall you take her son’s daughter or her daughter’s daughter, to uncover her nakedness. They are near of kin to her. It is wickedness. 

 

We should not look upon (and by inference have sexual relations with) a woman’s daughter naked. Nor should we take a woman’s granddaughter as a wife. Vs. 17

 

 

"We should not look upon (and by inference have sexual relations with) a woman’s daughter naked. Nor should we take a woman’s granddaughter as a wife. Vs. 17"

 

Who is "We"? and who is this "woman"? Are we still dealing with family members or random people at this moment?

 

I just saw this. Might be helpful to reference who you're quoting Rev.

 

 

 

 

17 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter, neither shalt thou take her son's daughter, or her daughter's daughter, to uncover her nakedness; for they are her near kinswomen: it is wickedness.

 

 

i'm not sure what you're finding difficult about this passage. it simply means that you are not to uncover the nakedness of both a woman AND her daughter. or a woman AND her granddaughter. in other words, you don't sleep with a woman and her descendant. 

 

 

Yes, perhaps my my choice of words was lacking. This is a good explenation LadyC. Glad we cleared that up.

 

God bless,

GE

[GoldenEagle]

 

I learned a lot from this thread, especially about my misconceptions, biblical or other. Enough to make me do some of my own reading, not to debate the point, but just to learn a bit more.

 

 

 

Yes, you can marry a first cousin in South Africa.

Marriage is prohibited between persons related to a common ancestor if one of them is related in the first degree to that common ancestor. Marriage is thus forbidden between brother and sister, uncle and niece, aunt and nephew, and so on.

It is not forbidden between cousins.

(from Butterworth's Family Law Service, section A44)

 

 

 

 

 

Yes brother I agree. I've learned a lot too.

[Guest LadyC]

I come bearing an olive branch...and hoping to mend a few fences if at all possible at this point...

I am a work in progress as are we all, i don't pretend to know everything, if i gave that impression then i'm truely sorry ..... nor am i so foolish as to not know that life is a  constant learning process.....

 

Thanks to your willingness to share your opinions with me... i now know that cousin to cousin relationships in GODS eyes aren't considered "incest"....

I have been very blessed to have loving,kind,wise ,and truthful, honest counsel there for me.

 

IN trying not to cause hard feeling's..perhaps trying to hard,,it would appear that, thats exactly what i've done.....for this I do sincerely apologise .

 

So now i'm going to be blunt....no more beating around the bush.....

 

I'm NOT going to apologise for my upbringing ,that would be a slap in the faces of my family.

I didn't make a personal attack on anybody here. and  wouldn't.

My concern's are valid and real..not a mask for bias and judgement, I don't play pathetic games.

I'm nothing if not honest,perhaps too honest for  my own good at times.

I wouldn't make a very good diplomat , i speak plainly and simply and from my heart.

I heard a phase long ago that goes like this"So you want to be great,then learn how to heal people, to hurt people is easy" to me this makes alot of sense. and is how i live my life.

 

TO Aldeberan...I Thank you so much for the  time you took to go out of you're way to explain your thought's to me!

 

 one more thing, just to make it crystal clear, i'm not interested in the "to be great part" of that phrase, it's the rest of it that i live my life by....

Matt:22:v 37.....

GOD BLESS YOU EACH AND EVERYONE OF YOU!

hey, i like olive branches

 

and i would never ask you to apologize for your upbringing. nobody should have to do that. it's one of many things that make us who we are. i'm glad that you know that in God's eyes, it is not incestuous.

 

i never discount anyone's feelings as being invalid, and i hope i didn't give that impression. your feelings and concerns about genetic issues ARE valid.... valid from a personal viewpoint. but, those concerns about birth defects should be alleviated, given the genetic information that is available. when talking to others, it just makes more sense to say "hey, i would personally be afraid of having a baby with three heads, but the scientific community disagrees with me" than to say "you are playing russian roulette". it's not that there is zero chance, but nobody has zero chance... and i've preached this little suggestion to hundreds of people over the years... any couple wanting to have children should get genetic counseling. it's covered by most insurance companies, and GC's will test for any "bad" genes that are known to appear in the family history of either spouse.

 

anyway, i hold no ill will towards you.

[Guest LadyC]

A WORD TO ALL...

 

this discussion, while having frustrated me a bit yesterday evening, has really been very productive. everyone here, even when objecting, has done so in a civil manner. i do hope that (like fez and GE) some of you might have been intrigued enough by this conversation to learn more... not necessarily to debate, but just to learn. it really is a fascinating subject! 

 

one thing that hasn't been mentioned here by any of us that are familiar with the subject is what to call it! here are the actual definitions...

 

incest: sexual relations between two people related as parent, sibling, child or grandchild.

consanguine: blood relationships between two people related more distantly than parent, sibling, child or grandchild. 

   the more commonly used forms of the word would be consanguinity and consanguineous.

 

for further information about the biblical perspective, please see your Bible. that's really the final word on anything. 

 

for further information about the genetic risks, here are a few resources:

 

CONSANG.NET  Alan Bittles website, Consang.net, is very technical... not user friendly and not a fun read, but very informative. it includes studies of the risk as it applies in general, AND as it applies to small communities where cousin marriage is common. (MissPlaced, the latter is definitely more aligned with your concerns about cousin marriage, because in those communities, the risk is significantly higher than in most places.)

 

FORBIDDEN RELATIVES: The American Myth of Cousin Marriage by Martin Ottenheimer: This is a book written by a professor of anthropology. It is written as a textbook... again, not a fun read, but very informative. it's available on amazon, so i can't link to it.

 

BMC Medical Genetics article. this is a much easier read. and it's pretty short, too. five minutes or less.

 

Consanguinity Fact Sheet: Debunking Common Myths: This article is provided for training medical professionals, but it is easy to read and includes a chart that makes it very easy to understand. It is written by Robin Bennet.

 

When Parents Are Relatives Fact Sheet provided for by the centre for human genetics, and written by alan bittles, robin bennet, and one other person. it's easy to read

 

The JAMA article i mentioned earlier, from Bennet and Bittles, is available here. It's actually a lengthy booklet (i own a copy) and it isn't free. However, when you follow that link, there is a free 2 page preview in pdf format. 

 

Genes and Genetics: Related Parents: this article is on the better health channel. i just found it and have just barely glanced over it, but it looks pretty accurate, and very easy to read. i like it mostly because it explains the various types of genetic defects and which are of concern to related parents. it's also a 5 minute or less article, and the page is visually appealing.

 

anyway, i have lots to do today and i'm already behind schedule. hope this will be of interest to some of you!