Recovery from legalism

[Fez]

 

 

In Rom 8:1 you quote the first half of the verse but neglect the second half (depending on which Bible translation you use). If you were to use a Bible version which relies on the Majority Text rather than the Minority Text the whole verse would read: "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit."  The second clause in this verse makes it clear that no condemnation is reserved only for those in Christ who walk after the Spirit and not the flesh. In all Bible versions this is confirmed in verse 4 which reads: " in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." According to your view, does a child of God whose lifestyle is disobedient by continuing to walk after the flesh by engaging in known, habitual sin still saved?

 

I know you asked someone else this question, but I wanted to comment.

 

If we were to look at what happens when a person is saved, it is really very dramatic.

 

When a person is saved, the old man dies, who they were was crucified with Jesus, and they become new creations. The Holy Spirit indwells them. They receive a new heart and the mind of Christ.

 

Essentially, they become a new person with new desires and loves. They go from being an enemy of God to a friend of God. They go from being an enemy to loving God. The indwelling Spirit guides and teaches.  

 

So, a true born again child of God is not the same person they were before. A born again child of God desires to be pleasing to God. Yes, they will sometimes blow it and sin, as they mature and grow becoming conformed to Jesus, but the Holy Spirit will convict them when that happens.

 

So, the question becomes, if we look at a person and see them continuing in habitual sin for years, with no feelings of concern, can that person be a new creation with the indwelling Holy Spirit? Do they actually have Christ in them? If not, scripture says if they do not have the spirit of Christ in them, then they are not His. These are people who are walking in the flesh but not the Spirit, because they do not have the Spirit of Jesus in them.

 

There are people who are religious, and some can make a good show of their religiousity, but religiousity is actually a form of legalism. As scripture says, paraphrased, there are some who have snuck in unawares.

 

A person in love will do whatever they can to please the one they love. They may not do it perfectly, and they might make mistakes, but a person in love wants to do good to the one they love. Not for any gain, and not by a list which can be followed but out of love. Born again believers love God because He first loved us.

 

Qnts2 - I do not disagree with what you have stated in the above scenarios. Yes we all sin for which we should repent and seek forgiveness. Yet, if a person "habitually sins for years" that person should not presume that he or she is still a Christian or "forever saved."  The Apostle Paul addressed his letter specifically to the believers in Rome.  In Rom 8:13 he warns these believers: "For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. If it were not possible for Christians to die spiritually and experience God's condemnation, Paul wouldn't have had to issue such a stern warning in the first place.

 

Yet, if a person "habitually sins for years" that person should not presume that he or she is still a Christian or "forever saved."

 

Just a question about the above. If we are legalistic enough to dogmatically try and follow the entire law (because fail one we fail them all, or so scripture tells us), and we fail, and we will, and often in the same place, does that mean that we are not Christians?

 

Want to discuss the Blood and Grace?

[Elhanan]

You are free to discuss blood & grace - that is your prerogative. But do you disagree with my statement that you quoted above?  And how do you distinguish between works of the law and deeds of the flesh?

[Fez]

You are free to discuss blood & grace - that is your prerogative. But do you disagree with my statement that you quoted above?  And how do you distinguish between works of the law and deeds of the flesh?

Want to answer mine first?

 

Just a question about the above. If we are legalistic enough to dogmatically try and follow the entire law (because fail one we fail them all, or so scripture tells us), and we fail, and we will, and often in the same place, does that mean that we are not Christians?

 

[Elhanan]

 

You are free to discuss blood & grace - that is your prerogative. But do you disagree with my statement that you quoted above?  And how do you distinguish between works of the law and deeds of the flesh?

Want to answer mine first?

 

Just a question about the above. If we are legalistic enough to dogmatically try and follow the entire law (because fail one we fail them all, or so scripture tells us), and we fail, and we will, and often in the same place, does that mean that we are not Christians?

 

I will gladly oblige you.  The short answer to your question is YES.  If you and I try to live by the law we will surely fail.  If you try to justify yourself by the law, you were never a Christian in the first place.  "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God's sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin." (Rom 3:20)  Works of the law references OT law and ritual such as the practice of circumcision.  No one is justified by observing such practices and as such they cannot save.

 

Your turn to answer mine.

[Qnts2]

 

 

 

In Rom 8:1 you quote the first half of the verse but neglect the second half (depending on which Bible translation you use). If you were to use a Bible version which relies on the Majority Text rather than the Minority Text the whole verse would read: "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit."  The second clause in this verse makes it clear that no condemnation is reserved only for those in Christ who walk after the Spirit and not the flesh. In all Bible versions this is confirmed in verse 4 which reads: " in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." According to your view, does a child of God whose lifestyle is disobedient by continuing to walk after the flesh by engaging in known, habitual sin still saved?

 

 

I know you asked someone else this question, but I wanted to comment.

 

If we were to look at what happens when a person is saved, it is really very dramatic.

 

When a person is saved, the old man dies, who they were was crucified with Jesus, and they become new creations. The Holy Spirit indwells them. They receive a new heart and the mind of Christ.

 

Essentially, they become a new person with new desires and loves. They go from being an enemy of God to a friend of God. They go from being an enemy to loving God. The indwelling Spirit guides and teaches.  

 

So, a true born again child of God is not the same person they were before. A born again child of God desires to be pleasing to God. Yes, they will sometimes blow it and sin, as they mature and grow becoming conformed to Jesus, but the Holy Spirit will convict them when that happens.

 

So, the question becomes, if we look at a person and see them continuing in habitual sin for years, with no feelings of concern, can that person be a new creation with the indwelling Holy Spirit? Do they actually have Christ in them? If not, scripture says if they do not have the spirit of Christ in them, then they are not His. These are people who are walking in the flesh but not the Spirit, because they do not have the Spirit of Jesus in them.

 

There are people who are religious, and some can make a good show of their religiousity, but religiousity is actually a form of legalism. As scripture says, paraphrased, there are some who have snuck in unawares.

 

A person in love will do whatever they can to please the one they love. They may not do it perfectly, and they might make mistakes, but a person in love wants to do good to the one they love. Not for any gain, and not by a list which can be followed but out of love. Born again believers love God because He first loved us. 

 

Qnts2 - I do not disagree with what you have stated in the above scenarios. Yes we all sin for which we should repent and seek forgiveness. Yet, if a person "habitually sins for years" that person should not presume that he or she is still a Christian or "forever saved."  The Apostle Paul addressed his letter specifically to the believers in Rome.  In Rom 8:13 he warns these believers: "For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. If it were not possible for Christians to die spiritually and experience God's condemnation, Paul wouldn't have had to issue such a stern warning in the first place.

 

 

I read Paul's warning very different. A Christian is a person who has the Spirit. A person who does not have the Spirit is not a Christian, and lives by the flesh. A person who is born again by the Spirit, lives by the Spirit.  

 

So a person who continually and habitually sins, a person who lives by the flesh, is a person who is not a Christian in the biblical sense. A person who is not a born again Christian will die because they are not saved.  

 

In scripture (paraphrased), it says 'I no longer live, Christ lives in me'. How is it we no longer live? If a person was truly saved, then they were crucified with Christ, and is the Spirit who lives in us and through us, changing us. But that is all a repeat.  

 

From what I read, scripture differentiates between a carnal Christian (one who has not matured but is saved) and a person who is in the flesh who is not saved.

 

What occurs when a person is saved?

 

1. Jesus died for all of our sins.

2. Our old man died

3. We are new creations

4. We are born again of the Holy Spirit

5. Jesus lives in us

6. We receive eternal life

 

If we were to lose our salvation, what would it take?

 

1. Jesus didn't die for at least one of our sins

2. Our old man must be resurrected

3. We cease being a new creation and revert back to being the old self

4. We become un-born again

5. Jesus leaves us

6. We lose eternal life, so eternal life ceases to be eternal in us.

 

The question then is, is everyone who claims to be a Christian, born again of the Holy Spirit? Truly a new creation?  

[Fez]

 

 

You are free to discuss blood & grace - that is your prerogative. But do you disagree with my statement that you quoted above?  And how do you distinguish between works of the law and deeds of the flesh?

Want to answer mine first?

 

Just a question about the above. If we are legalistic enough to dogmatically try and follow the entire law (because fail one we fail them all, or so scripture tells us), and we fail, and we will, and often in the same place, does that mean that we are not Christians?

 

I will gladly oblige you.  The short answer to your question is YES.  If you and I try to live by the law we will surely fail.  If you try to justify yourself by the law, you were never a Christian in the first place.  "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God's sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin." (Rom 3:20)  Works of the law references OT law and ritual such as the practice of circumcision.  No one is justified by observing such practices and as such they cannot save.

 

Your turn to answer mine.

 

 

"Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God's sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin." (Rom 3:20) 

See here is my dilemma. I happen to agree with what you say in the context in which you state it. But nothing is that simple is it? We make it complicated. On Worthy (and in many churches) we have people who were saved through hearing the Word, and through deeper study, and perhaps some errant teaching, believe that not to follow law leads them from salvation. I don't believe they are not Christians, or cannot be counted as believers. 

 

I just think they are believers who have a misguided sense of being what a Christian is.

 

I don't think that considering women who wear pants as sinful denotes a person as not being a Christian. I just think we have a Christian who does not understand the fulfillment of the Law.

[Elhanan]

I read Paul's warning very different. A Christian is a person who has the Spirit. A person who does not have the Spirit is not a Christian, and lives by the flesh. A person who is born again by the Spirit, lives by the Spirit.  

 

So a person who continually and habitually sins, a person who lives by the flesh, is a person who is not a Christian in the biblical sense. A person who is not a born again Christian will die because they are not saved.  

 

In scripture (paraphrased), it says 'I no longer live, Christ lives in me'. How is it we no longer live? If a person was truly saved, then they were crucified with Christ, and is the Spirit who lives in us and through us, changing us. But that is all a repeat.  

 

From what I read, scripture differentiates between a carnal Christian (one who has not matured but is saved) and a person who is in the flesh who is not saved.

 

What occurs when a person is saved?

 

1. Jesus died for all of our sins.

2. Our old man died

3. We are new creations

4. We are born again of the Holy Spirit

5. Jesus lives in us

6. We receive eternal life

 

If we were to lose our salvation, what would it take?

 

1. Jesus didn't die for at least one of our sins

2. Our old man must be resurrected

3. We cease being a new creation and revert back to being the old self

4. We become un-born again

5. Jesus leaves us

6. We lose eternal life, so eternal life ceases to be eternal in us.

 

The question then is, is everyone who claims to be a Christian, born again of the Holy Spirit? Truly a new creation?  

 

If I understand you correctly are you saying that Paul wasn't addressing believers in his epistle to the church in Rome?  In Rom 8:12, he specifically addresses them as brethren/brothers/brothers & sisters depending on your Bible version.  In the very next verse v.13, he warns them that if they live according to the flesh, they will die.  Given this, it is possible for Christians to still live according to the flesh - and if they do - they will spiritually die. Christ died to save us from our sins.  He did not die so that we can continue in known sin. As such it is possible to have one's name removed from the Book of Life (Rev 3:5).  Salvation is not just a moment in time decision that guarantees one's ticket to heaven but is a process over the course of one's life and is only promised to those who by persevering fight the good fight and finish the race.  God promises eternal salvation only to those who OBEY him (Heb 5:9).  Disobedient believers on the other hand, face the possibility of God's wrath: "but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath" (Rom 2:8).

[Elhanan]

 

 

 

You are free to discuss blood & grace - that is your prerogative. But do you disagree with my statement that you quoted above?  And how do you distinguish between works of the law and deeds of the flesh?

Want to answer mine first?

 

Just a question about the above. If we are legalistic enough to dogmatically try and follow the entire law (because fail one we fail them all, or so scripture tells us), and we fail, and we will, and often in the same place, does that mean that we are not Christians?

 

I will gladly oblige you.  The short answer to your question is YES.  If you and I try to live by the law we will surely fail.  If you try to justify yourself by the law, you were never a Christian in the first place.  "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God's sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin." (Rom 3:20)  Works of the law references OT law and ritual such as the practice of circumcision.  No one is justified by observing such practices and as such they cannot save.

 

Your turn to answer mine.

 

 

"Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God's sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin." (Rom 3:20) 

See here is my dilemma. I happen to agree with what you say in the context in which you state it. But nothing is that simple is it? We make it complicated. On Worthy (and in many churches) we have people who were saved through hearing the Word, and through deeper study, and perhaps some errant teaching, believe that not to follow law leads them from salvation. I don't believe they are not Christians, or cannot be counted as believers. 

 

I just think they are believers who have a misguided sense of being what a Christian is.

 

I don't think that considering women who wear pants as sinful denotes a person as not being a Christian. I just think we have a Christian who does not understand the fulfillment of the Law.

 

 

I don't quite understand your position.  That's why I asked you to answer my 2 questions to provide more clarity:

 

 

Yet, if a person "habitually sins for years" that person should not presume that he or she is still a Christian or "forever saved."  Agree or Disagree?

 

And how do you distinguish between works of the law and deeds of the flesh?

 

Personally, I believe that there are those who were never believers to begin with and thus remain unsaved, and those who were believers but for whatever reason fall away from the faith and thus lose their salvation.

[GoldenEagle]

I don't quite understand your position.  That's why I asked you to answer my 2 questions to provide more clarity:

 

 

1. Yet, if a person "habitually sins for years" that person should not presume that he or she is still a Christian or "forever saved."  Agree or Disagree?

 

2. And how do you distinguish between works of the law and deeds of the flesh?

 

 

1. I think I agree with you here. I would argue that the person might not understand what salvation is... And would need to break from habitual sin with the help of the Holy Spirit. However, what Biblical basis do you have for this assertion in point number one?

 

2. That is an interesting question. How do you distinguish between works of the law and deeds of the flesh?

 

God bless,

GE

[Qnts2]

 

I read Paul's warning very different. A Christian is a person who has the Spirit. A person who does not have the Spirit is not a Christian, and lives by the flesh. A person who is born again by the Spirit, lives by the Spirit.  

 

So a person who continually and habitually sins, a person who lives by the flesh, is a person who is not a Christian in the biblical sense. A person who is not a born again Christian will die because they are not saved.  

 

In scripture (paraphrased), it says 'I no longer live, Christ lives in me'. How is it we no longer live? If a person was truly saved, then they were crucified with Christ, and is the Spirit who lives in us and through us, changing us. But that is all a repeat.  

 

From what I read, scripture differentiates between a carnal Christian (one who has not matured but is saved) and a person who is in the flesh who is not saved.

 

What occurs when a person is saved?

 

1. Jesus died for all of our sins.

2. Our old man died

3. We are new creations

4. We are born again of the Holy Spirit

5. Jesus lives in us

6. We receive eternal life

 

If we were to lose our salvation, what would it take?

 

1. Jesus didn't die for at least one of our sins

2. Our old man must be resurrected

3. We cease being a new creation and revert back to being the old self

4. We become un-born again

5. Jesus leaves us

6. We lose eternal life, so eternal life ceases to be eternal in us.

 

The question then is, is everyone who claims to be a Christian, born again of the Holy Spirit? Truly a new creation?  

 

If I understand you correctly are you saying that Paul wasn't addressing believers in his epistle to the church in Rome?  In Rom 8:12, he specifically addresses them as brethren/brothers/brothers & sisters depending on your Bible version.  In the very next verse v.13, he warns them that if they live according to the flesh, they will die.  Given this, it is possible for Christians to still live according to the flesh - and if they do - they will spiritually die. Christ died to save us from our sins.  He did not die so that we can continue in known sin. As such it is possible to have one's name removed from the Book of Life (Rev 3:5).  Salvation is not just a moment in time decision that guarantees one's ticket to heaven but is a process over the course of one's life and is only promised to those who by persevering fight the good fight and finish the race.  God promises eternal salvation only to those who OBEY him (Heb 5:9).  Disobedient believers on the other hand, face the possibility of God's wrath: "but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath" (Rom 2:8).

 

Paul was talking to believers. He was talking about the differences between believers and unbelievers.

 

Romans 8:1 8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,^[a] who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. ² For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. ³ For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, ⁴ that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. ⁵ For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

 

Who walks according to the flesh? Non-believers. They don't have the Spirit.

Who walks according to the Spirit? Believers. Believers have the indwelling Spirit, who teaches, leads us into truth, and if we sin, will convict. Believers are new creations, and that includes the desire to be pleasing to God.  

 

Romans 8:⁶ For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. ⁷ Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. ⁸ So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

 

Non-believers are in enmity against God. Believers have received the love of God, so believers love God.

Can a believer be subject to the law of God, meaning can the obey God? Of course. Non-believers do not obey God, nor can they.

 

This is clearly talking to believers about the difference between believers and non-believers.