No Scripture Identifies the Time for the Rapture

[His Ambassador]

Guys.  Guys!  Why are you ignoring Rev. 20 & 21.  It shows us exactly what will happen when Jesus returns.  There is no rapture as it is commonly taught.

[Montana Marv]

Guys.  Guys!  Why are you ignoring Rev. 20 & 21.  It shows us exactly what will happen when Jesus returns.  There is no rapture as it is commonly taught.

 His Ambassador

 

There is a Rapture (harpozo) as commonly taught.  I Thes 4:15-18 - According to the Lords own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord,  will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.  For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, the dead in Christ will rise first.  After that we who are still alive and are left will be caught up (harpozo) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.  And so we will be with the Loerd forever.  Encourage each other with these words.

 

Encourage each other with these words, for the Rapture (harpozo) is going to take place.  This is Scripture as commonly taught.

 

II Thes 2 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter to have come from us, say that the day of the Lord has already come... v3 Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell these things.  The Rapture (harpozo)

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[His Ambassador]

 

Guys.  Guys!  Why are you ignoring Rev. 20 & 21.  It shows us exactly what will happen when Jesus returns.  There is no rapture as it is commonly taught.

 His Ambassador

 

There is a Rapture (harpozo) as commonly taught.  I Thes 4:15-18 - According to the Lords own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord,  will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.  For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, the dead in Christ will rise first.  After that we who are still alive and are left will be caught up (harpozo) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.  And so we will be with the Loerd forever.  Encourage each other with these words.

 

Encourage each other with these words, for the Rapture (harpozo) is going to take place.  This is Scripture as commonly taught.

 

II Thes 2 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter to have come from us, say that the day of the Lord has already come... v3 Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell these things.  The Rapture (harpozo)

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

Read it Marv.  The "rapture" takes place just before the judgments.

 

[GlidingWings]

 I believe that pre trib has a mistranslation on the misunderstanding of how God repeats Himself many times in the Bible to make more emphasis and even to make the reader to remember more. Let’s take the creation for example. Let’s suppose the Bible had mentioned the creation of the Earth 148 times. Should we then believe that God created the Earth 148 times because it is mentioned that many times? Should we per say separate this one event to separate events? When God repeats His message He makes it a strong message that we should seriously take notice of. Do you know when God repeats it helps us to compare one book of the Bible to another part of the Bible? Why is it then that God would make Matthew 24 something different than 1, Thess. chapter 4, 2 Thess. chapter 2 to appear to be different events? Now include Jude and Revelation.

 

If we see these as different events from every book in the New Testament it would look like Jesus is bouncing back and forth from Heaven multiple times. The Old Testament showed us that only Jesus was to be on Earth and the second time of His return. There is no mention of some event taking place in between Jesus being born to ascending into Heaven which ends with His second return. .

 

Anyone of pre trib ought to ask themselves. What does it mean the second return of Christ? What number is beyond 2 that if the rapture represents of an imminent return of Christ that is separate from His second return that would add up to 3 times?

 

They teach that Matthew the book is assigned to Israel. But when we turn to the Sermon on the Mount chapter five they then say that is the message for Christians in which we should live by. . ok, see it seems ok that only at some points that the book of Matthew is a message to the Jews and not a message to Christians. Then at other times they think this book is a message to Christians and not so much the Jews. But ask yourself and say who did God really have the book of Matthew written for?

The mention of the abomination in Judea simply is telling us those who happen to be there run for safety. Apparently directly the abomination will be in Judea. If we are here in America the abomination is in Judea and not in Los Angeles. Therefore this is why Judea of Israel is warned to run.

People were not called Christian until the book of Acts. Yet we know the Gospels that precede Acts are 4 books assigned to Christians who were converted. There is no separation in the gospel that Jews should receive a whole other message Christians will not in likewise vice versa. . Is any message of the Gospels for everyone of every believer Jew or not to believe and understand these things?

 

There is only one seventh trumpet. We see this in Matthew 24 and Thess 4 that is the same seventh trumpet of Revelations. There’s no 2 trumpets mentioned one for a rapture and one for His return again. Pre trib are taking these mentions that God has repeated as separate events. We then would have to believe all these events took place several times or we discern and use sound thinking and God’s principles. It only makes sense this is all one event. Saints is mentions in Ephesians 1 then in Revelation five. How can these saints be any different from those in Ephesians? 

 

It all comes down to that Pre Trib have to be changing scriptures and verses that will support this kind of view. Every scripture fitting for the Rapture placed in one pile and for the second return another pile. I see in Matt. 24 His return and the gathering is right next to each other. Then it shows us how one is taken and one is left. Is that not the rapture? If that’s not the rapture in Matthew 24 where is the person in the field or in the mill taken? In Thess. God wants to tell us again about this event. It is important to know that it is a part of Christ’s return. As said in an earlier post Thessalonians chapter 2 has the answer to this question. The answer is not in any way a mystery. It is relevant and clear. To make sure we would not misunderstand the order of events it goes like this.

That by no spirit or by no written letter shall the gathering be and the day of the Lord unless first the apostasy and the man of lawlessness be revealed. If here we see as a solid fact how can we change the order of these things? Where does it say here first is the gathering, and then the falling away, then the man of perdition, then it should happen the second return? That would have been 4 main events. But we only see three the falling away, the man of lawlessness, and then His return.

In likewise in Matthew 24 we have the falling away before the mention of the abomination and we have the one mention of Jesus return after the abomination. How can anyone squeeze a secret rapture in between what is known?. . Why is it that the rapture needs to be the unknown day and the day of Christ the day we know?  How can the rapture be the last day and the day of Christ is not the last day?  How can there be 2 seventh trumpets and how can there by 2 kinds of different Saints? How can this all be doubled? The answer is it is not. It is yet because we have one God. We have one message. We read from one Bible.

 

There is no disliking at all of Pre trib believers. I have a few pre trib friends. I fear however they will keep waiting for Christ. Then after waiting all this time they will suddenly realize we are at some point in the tribulation. That Christ did not return yet after all. They will kick in the mud saying that Hal Lindsay that Tim Lahayes I should have never believed such movies and end times series. I should have known it takes more than to see a movie to understand Prophecy end times. My Pre trib friends think its going to happen just like the movie. If it were that simple we would know exactly what is going on. But rather this teaching is causing chaos making those to expect what is not to be. They’re making them not ready for the time of Revelations. What Pre Trib needs to study Rev. if they are not here? I don’t blame anyone for not wanting to be here. Most of us would prefer Tribulation never existed at all from Daniel to Matthew to Thess. and Revelations. God wants everyone to know this not because He ever intended Christians would not be here during that time. He told us this because Christians would be here during that time. This message is then is left to all unbelievers? Not so. But this message is for any and all believers. The Bible is intended for all those people who have believed and trusted God in all His promises. This is not a Gospel for unbelievers who were lost and left behind. Don’t fall into the thinking of being left behind rather to think God’s words are understanding, teaching and all wisdom to be fully ahead.

[Micheal Westin]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Marv when are you going to understand the scripture about Noah and being taken away, that scripture isn't about a rapture of the bride, the ones taken away are the ones that were taken away by the flood. That's the way it will be with the coming of the Son of Man, the ones taken are the evil ones, taken to where the eagles are gathered to be the main coarse for dinner.

If the evil are taken away, what becomes of the ones that are left in your scenario? 

 

they enter the 1000 year reign

 

So you believe they are the sheep that get separated from the goats?  Then who are the saints that will rule and reign over them with Christ?  Or, if you believe these ARE the saints, then who are the ones that they will rule over, the ones who will re-populate the earth?  Also, who were the least of Christ' brothers that the sheep ministered to?

 

It does not appear that you believe in a rapture.  And what about the martyr's that are killed for refusing the mark of the beast, where do they come into play in your scenario?

 

your right about that, there won't be any pre-trib rapture. That is totally a man made doctrine

 

 

I agree with you about the pre-trib timing, but it does not appear that you believe in any rapture whatsoever, since your interpretation is that the evil ones are taken away instead.  But what is your understanding of the ones who are left? 

 

The rapture and the second coming are the same event. The Lord is coming back to set up His Kingdom on this Earth, the ones left will join the Lord in his Kingdom

 

 

So how do you understand our gathering in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air? 

 

It happens just like the Bible says, we meet the Lord in the air. We then make our way to Bozrah and then to the Mt of Olives

 

 

But you said the evil ones were taken, ie, two will be in the field, one is taken, the other is left...Two women grinding at the mill, one is taken, the other is left????  Then Christ repeatedly says no one knows the day and the hour and to be ready, but you say these are the evil ones??

 

The ones taken are the evil ones, they are gathered and burned. The righteous go with the Lord. 

I am ready, I got ready 50 years ago, and I still won't know the day or hour until that day is upon us.

 

 

I think you're really getting ahead of yourself in this prophecy.  There's nothing in here to indicate that the evil ones are either taken or burned.  You create a problem when you start adding the wheat and tares into this mix.  The wheat and tares would fit much better with the sheep and goats at the end of Matt. 25, which is the end of the age.  That is also the second coming, and when He will judge the nations, but it is vitally important to know that judgment first begins with the house of the Lord (1 Pet. 4:17).  In Matt. 24 we see Christ gathering His elect, telling His followers that they must be ready, followed by several parables that have nothing whatsoever to do with the physical second coming to the earth, but everything to do with the rapture.  This is all about the judgment of His servants first; and then He will judge the survivors of the nations afterward, which will determine who will enter the millennial kingdom.  (See my comments in post #84)

 

The pre-tribbers are the ones getting ahead of themselves. The rapture and second coming are the same event, not 2 events separated by 7 years.

 

 

I agree, but not to worry, their theory will be the first one to fall.  The rapture and second coming are definitely not the same event, but what makes you so sure they are???

 

 

Shalom, guys. Thought I'd throw my 2 cents worth into the mix. Please understand that the parables of Matthew 13 are NOT about this time period - the period in which we are currently living. They are about the future, first one thousand years of the Messiah's reign while haSatan (the Enemy) is in chains (also yet in the future). The parables of the tares and the wheat, and of the dragnet are about THAT time period and the culmination of that ONE THOUSAND YEAR LONG PERIOD is when the wheat and the tares - or the good fish from the bad - are separated.

 

The parable of the sheep and the goats - which is an analogy to the NATIONS (not individuals) - occurs when the King begins sitting on His throne. This, of course, occurs at the BEGINNING of His reign, at the BEGINNING of the one thousand years.

 

Many Christians have been taught that one should gloss over this one-thousand-year period to the point that they FORGET (or never knew) that when the Messiah returns, the End is not right away! So, by way of diagram, we find in Scripture that it will be ...

 

Rapture/2nd Coming -RESCUE - sheep/goats - O N E  T H O U S A N D  Y E A R S - wheat/tares & bad-fish/good-fish (GWTJ) - FIRE- New Earth/Sky/Jerusalem - ETERNITY.

 

P.S., I should have mentioned that we are told in each of these parables when they occur: The sheep/goats happens "when the Son of man shall come in his glory, and ... then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory." The wheat/tares occurs when his messengers-angels "gather OUT OF HIS KINGDOM all things that offend," which is also said to occur "in the end of this world (Greek: aioonos or age)." The drag-net parable is also said to occur "at the end of the world (Greek: aioonos or age)." And, I think the controlling passage of Scripture that defines/links these periods and also harmonizes with Revelation 19-21 is 1 Corinthians 15:20-28. There, Paul says that AFTER the Son of man has reigned until every enemy is under his feet, "then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him," and he "shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father" at "the end."

 

Now, RollinTHUNDER, the "rapture" and the "second coming" are not PRECISELY the same event, but neither are they PRECISELY different events! The timing of the second coming is found in the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24/25, Mark 13, Luke 21), but the "rapture" is said to be associated with the passage in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17. One should notice, however, that NOWHERE in 1 Thess. 4:13-17 does Paul tell us WHERE we will be going after we "meet the Lord in the air!" It only says, "and so shall we ever be with the Lord." Therefore, we can only conclude that, wherever the Lord goes, we will go.

 

The typical assumption for the pretribbers (and pre-wrath and even some posttribbers) is that He will go back to "Heaven." However, that is NOT said in this passage. That's only an assumption. Now, some will, at this point, throw in John 14:1-3, where Yeshua` concluded, "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." But here again, there's an assumption that where the Lord will be, where His disciples will be, is in the place where He went to "prepare a place" for His disciples! Notice that NOWHERE in John 14:1-3 does it say that He will take His disciples back where He was "preparing" them a place! It SEEMS implied, but THAT is the assumption! To the contrary, Revelation (also written by the same John) says that the New Jerusalem (which was "prepared" - same word - as a bride for her husband) comes DOWN FROM God OUT OF heaven and is the tabernacle (Greek: skeenee meaning a Bedouin tent) of God "WITH MEN, and they shall be his people, and God Himself shall be WITH THEM, and be their God."

 

Therefore, instead of thinking of us "going to heaven," we should be thinking of the "New Jerusalem coming HERE!" Of course, based on the diagram above, this doesn't occur until AFTER the first 1000 years of the Messiah's reign. SO, the next question is "where will Yeshua` (Jesus) go AFTER He has come again and received His disciples unto Himself?" Again, from John 14:1-3, we can only conclude that wherever Yeshua` is, there His disciples will be, too.

 

The next thing to ask is, I believe, the key: "For what PURPOSE(S) is our Lord returning?" Well, there are two, according to the Scriptures: (1) He comes to rescue His people, and (2) He comes to reign. I believe that, therefore, our resurrection/transformation/rapture/ascension also has the same two purposes. We are transported (1) to help Him rescue His people, and (2) to help Him reign. The Scriptures imply that He will start without us because it says that He will be MAJORLY TICKED OFF that no one is helping Him with His indignation against Botsrah (Bozrah) in Edowm (Edom) for the way they treated His people, Isra'el (Isaiah 63:1-6). So, which comes first? I believe that the rescue of His people must occur before He can begin His reign in Isra'el; so, it seems to me that the RESCUE has to occur before He begins His reign. He has to have His people and His Land before He can reign as their King.

 

I like that line of reasoning, it seems to fit

[Micheal Westin]

 I believe that pre trib has a mistranslation on the misunderstanding of how God repeats Himself many times in the Bible to make more emphasis and even to make the reader to remember more. Let’s take the creation for example. Let’s suppose the Bible had mentioned the creation of the Earth 148 times. Should we then believe that God created the Earth 148 times because it is mentioned that many times? Should we per say separate this one event to separate events? When God repeats His message He makes it a strong message that we should seriously take notice of. Do you know when God repeats it helps us to compare one book of the Bible to another part of the Bible? Why is it then that God would make Matthew 24 something different than 1, Thess. chapter 4, 2 Thess. chapter 2 to appear to be different events? Now include Jude and Revelation.

 

If we see these as different events from every book in the New Testament it would look like Jesus is bouncing back and forth from Heaven multiple times. The Old Testament showed us that only Jesus was to be on Earth and the second time of His return. There is no mention of some event taking place in between Jesus being born to ascending into Heaven which ends with His second return. .

 

Anyone of pre trib ought to ask themselves. What does it mean the second return of Christ? What number is beyond 2 that if the rapture represents of an imminent return of Christ that is separate from His second return that would add up to 3 times?

 

They teach that Matthew the book is assigned to Israel. But when we turn to the Sermon on the Mount chapter five they then say that is the message for Christians in which we should live by. . ok, see it seems ok that only at some points that the book of Matthew is a message to the Jews and not a message to Christians. Then at other times they think this book is a message to Christians and not so much the Jews. But ask yourself and say who did God really have the book of Matthew written for?

The mention of the abomination in Judea simply is telling us those who happen to be there run for safety. Apparently directly the abomination will be in Judea. If we are here in America the abomination is in Judea and not in Los Angeles. Therefore this is why Judea of Israel is warned to run.

People were not called Christian until the book of Acts. Yet we know the Gospels that precede Acts are 4 books assigned to Christians who were converted. There is no separation in the gospel that Jews should receive a whole other message Christians will not in likewise vice versa. . Is any message of the Gospels for everyone of every believer Jew or not to believe and understand these things?

 

There is only one seventh trumpet. We see this in Matthew 24 and Thess 4 that is the same seventh trumpet of Revelations. There’s no 2 trumpets mentioned one for a rapture and one for His return again. Pre trib are taking these mentions that God has repeated as separate events. We then would have to believe all these events took place several times or we discern and use sound thinking and God’s principles. It only makes sense this is all one event. Saints is mentions in Ephesians 1 then in Revelation five. How can these saints be any different from those in Ephesians? 

 

It all comes down to that Pre Trib have to be changing scriptures and verses that will support this kind of view. Every scripture fitting for the Rapture placed in one pile and for the second return another pile. I see in Matt. 24 His return and the gathering is right next to each other. Then it shows us how one is taken and one is left. Is that not the rapture? If that’s not the rapture in Matthew 24 where is the person in the field or in the mill taken? In Thess. God wants to tell us again about this event. It is important to know that it is a part of Christ’s return. As said in an earlier post Thessalonians chapter 2 has the answer to this question. The answer is not in any way a mystery. It is relevant and clear. To make sure we would not misunderstand the order of events it goes like this.

That by no spirit or by no written letter shall the gathering be and the day of the Lord unless first the apostasy and the man of lawlessness be revealed. If here we see as a solid fact how can we change the order of these things? Where does it say here first is the gathering, and then the falling away, then the man of perdition, then it should happen the second return? That would have been 4 main events. But we only see three the falling away, the man of lawlessness, and then His return.

In likewise in Matthew 24 we have the falling away before the mention of the abomination and we have the one mention of Jesus return after the abomination. How can anyone squeeze a secret rapture in between what is known?. . Why is it that the rapture needs to be the unknown day and the day of Christ the day we know?  How can the rapture be the last day and the day of Christ is not the last day?  How can there be 2 seventh trumpets and how can there by 2 kinds of different Saints? How can this all be doubled? The answer is it is not. It is yet because we have one God. We have one message. We read from one Bible.

 

There is no disliking at all of Pre trib believers. I have a few pre trib friends. I fear however they will keep waiting for Christ. Then after waiting all this time they will suddenly realize we are at some point in the tribulation. That Christ did not return yet after all. They will kick in the mud saying that Hal Lindsay that Tim Lahayes I should have never believed such movies and end times series. I should have known it takes more than to see a movie to understand Prophecy end times. My Pre trib friends think its going to happen just like the movie. If it were that simple we would know exactly what is going on. But rather this teaching is causing chaos making those to expect what is not to be. They’re making them not ready for the time of Revelations. What Pre Trib needs to study Rev. if they are not here? I don’t blame anyone for not wanting to be here. Most of us would prefer Tribulation never existed at all from Daniel to Matthew to Thess. and Revelations. God wants everyone to know this not because He ever intended Christians would not be here during that time. He told us this because Christians would be here during that time. This message is then is left to all unbelievers? Not so. But this message is for any and all believers. The Bible is intended for all those people who have believed and trusted God in all His promises. This is not a Gospel for unbelievers who were lost and left behind. Don’t fall into the thinking of being left behind rather to think God’s words are understanding, teaching and all wisdom to be fully ahead.

good post!.....I find the pretrib rapture leading people to the antichrist, as they are endlessly told Christ comes first, which isn't the case

[Willa]

Read Romans 5:9 Much more so, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

1 Thess 1:10 --and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to

Come

1 Thess 5:9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Col. 3:4 When Christ Who is our life appears, then you will appear with Him in glory.

Rev. 3:10 because you have kept My command to perservere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shAll come upon the whole world.

Col 3:6 because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience,

John 3:36 He who believes on the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life but the wrath of God abides on him.

It is clear that the wrath of God is intended for unbelievers; and that God rescues the believers from the wrath. We still must endure trials and hardships, but believers will not go through the part of the tribulation known as the wrath of God. It seems highly improbable that Christ in us and the Holy Spirit Who resides in us would be destined for wrath. The church of Philadelphia apparantly will also be delivered from all of the tribulation period--the trial which is coming upon the whole earth. Perhaps some of us will also not have to endure the tribulation; but believers will not endure the wrath. Some may be saved during the tribulation, believing the witnesses who will be resurrected after preaching in the streets of Jeruselem. Many will believe when they realize that the antichrist demands that all worship him. Some will be protected going through the tribulation and be saved in that way. They will populate the earth during the millinium. But only unbelievers will go through the wrath of God.

1 Thess. 3:13 speaks of the return of the Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints. So we must have been taken or snatched away from the earth to be able to return with Him on white horses. Rev. 19:14

Rev. 19:17-21 speaks of all the armies of the antichrist being killed by the sword of His mouth, and the beast and the false prophet were sent to the lake of fire and brimstone. Satan is then cast into the bottomless pit and bound for 1000 years. The saints were given thrones and judgement was committed to them. The 144,000 who were beheaded lived and reigned with Christ for 1000 years. This is the first resurrection. We are told that we will judge the angels. Perhaps we will do that at that time.

At the end of the 1000 years all the rest of the dead are resurrected, and all whose names are not written in the Lambs Book of Life will be judged according to their works. Then death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire and all whose names are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

Rev. 21 concerns the new heavens and new earth.

We are to comfort one another with the fact that believers in whom Christ lives will not have to endure the wrath of God, and exhort or edify one another with this knowledge. 1Thess. 5:11. We are also to encourage one another to be faithful to attend church so our love will not grow cold. Heb. 10:25. I do not think of this as a legalistic demand but as an encouragement to do so, that we may remain strong in faith.

[rollinTHUNDER]

What to think about all of these different rapture views?  The rapture has been a profound mystery and very controversial since the 1st century.  There are several different theories.  Pre-trib and post-trib are the most popular rapture theories, but that does not mean that they are correct.  I prefer the timing of the pre-wrath theory, but it still has it's own set of problems.  So I kept studying this mystery until I accidently designed my own rapture theory, as crazy as that may sound.

Its kind of funny when you consider all of these theories.  This mystery reminds me of that old Prudential commercial.  Everyone owns a piece of the rock.  But what does the entire rock look like?

So now comes the $64,000.00 question; which one of these beliefs below is correct?
[A.] Some Christians believe we will be going all the way through the tribulation and meet Christ at the second coming.

[b.] Many believe they will escape or be rescued from the wrath to come.
[C.] Some Christians don't believe in the rapture at all.
[D.] But many believe they will be martyred or killed for refusing the mark of the beast.
[E.] All of the above.

 

The answer will almost certainly shock you, but would you believe the correct answer is [E.] All of the above.
No wonder this mystery has become so controversial! But it all depends on which reward you will receive when our Lord returns. When He comes, He'll be coming with power to judge, and judgment begins with the house of the Lord (1 Peter 4:17). He warned us to be ready, and only those who heed His commands will escape the hour of trial that will come upon the world, to test those who dwell on the earth (Rev. 3:10-11).

 

Revelation 22:11 - "And behold, I am coming quickly, and my reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work."

1 Corinthians 3:10-15
By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using (gold, silver), (costly stones), (wood, hay or straw), 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames. (emphasis mine)

Basically, there are three (3) different rewards that believers can receive.  Those who are ready [costly stones] will go in the rapture and rule over all the Kings goods (greatest in the kingdom).  Then many others will not be ready [gold & silver] and die as martyrs (least in the kingdom).  Both of these two groups are the saints that will return to reign with Christ.  But there is one more group of believers [wood, hay & straw].  This final group of believers got saved, but later fall away.  These will be saved (protected) through God's wrath.  Unlike the martyrs, they will want to die, but death will flee from them (Rev.9:6).  They are severely punished and lose all their rewards.  And not only will they miss the rapture, but they will also miss the first resurrection as well, which ended when the last martyr was killed.  And they (sheep separated from goats) will be subjects in the millennium and re-populate the earth along with the remnant of Jews that flee to the mountains.

This is why the church is not mentioned after Revelation chapter 3, not because of the mythical pre-trib rapture, but because the house was broken up (Matt.24:43). Those who are ready will escape (wedding supper), but the lazy servant will be cut asunder (cut in two-Matt.24:48-51).  This is why many saints will be overcome by the beast in Revelation 13, not because they get saved after the rapture.  And this is why we see the sheep being separated from the goats at the second coming, when Christ judges the nations, because this is the end of the age and the beginning of the millennium. 

 

2 Timothy 4:1
I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ,  who will judge the living and the dead atHis appearing and His kingdom:
 

[Micheal Westin]

What to think about all of these different rapture views?  The rapture has been a profound mystery and very controversial since the 1st century.  There are several different theories.  Pre-trib and post-trib are the most popular rapture theories, but that does not mean that they are correct.  I prefer the timing of the pre-wrath theory, but it still has it's own set of problems.  So I kept studying this mystery until I accidently designed my own rapture theory, as crazy as that may sound.

Its kind of funny when you consider all of these theories.  This mystery reminds me of that old Prudential commercial.  Everyone owns a piece of the rock.  But what does the entire rock look like?

So now comes the $64,000.00 question; which one of these beliefs below is correct?

[A.] Some Christians believe we will be going all the way through the tribulation and meet Christ at the second coming.

[b.] Many believe they will escape or be rescued from the wrath to come.

[C.] Some Christians don't believe in the rapture at all.

[D.] But many believe they will be martyred or killed for refusing the mark of the beast.

[E.] All of the above.

 

The answer will almost certainly shock you, but would you believe the correct answer is [E.] All of the above.

No wonder this mystery has become so controversial! But it all depends on which reward you will receive when our Lord returns. When He comes, He'll be coming with power to judge, and judgment begins with the house of the Lord (1 Peter 4:17). He warned us to be ready, and only those who heed His commands will escape the hour of trial that will come upon the world, to test those who dwell on the earth (Rev. 3:10-11).

 

Revelation 22:11 - "And behold, I am coming quickly, and my reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work."

1 Corinthians 3:10-15

By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using (gold, silver), (costly stones), (wood, hay or straw), 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames. (emphasis mine)

Basically, there are three (3) different rewards that believers can receive.  Those who are ready [costly stones] will go in the rapture and rule over all the Kings goods (greatest in the kingdom).  Then many others will not be ready [gold & silver] and die as martyrs (least in the kingdom).  Both of these two groups are the saints that will return to reign with Christ.  But there is one more group of believers [wood, hay & straw].  This final group of believers got saved, but later fall away.  These will be saved (protected) through God's wrath.  Unlike the martyrs, they will want to die, but death will flee from them (Rev.9:6).  They are severely punished and lose all their rewards.  And not only will they miss the rapture, but they will also miss the first resurrection as well, which ended when the last martyr was killed.  And they (sheep separated from goats) will be subjects in the millennium and re-populate the earth along with the remnant of Jews that flee to the mountains.

This is why the church is not mentioned after Revelation chapter 3, not because of the mythical pre-trib rapture, but because the house was broken up (Matt.24:43). Those who are ready will escape (wedding supper), but the lazy servant will be cut asunder (cut in two-Matt.24:48-51).  This is why many saints will be overcome by the beast in Revelation 13, not because they get saved after the rapture.  And this is why we see the sheep being separated from the goats at the second coming, when Christ judges the nations, because this is the end of the age and the beginning of the millennium. 

 

2 Timothy 4:1

I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ,  who will judge the living and the dead atHis appearing and His kingdom:

 

You stated       "So I kept studying this mystery until I  accidently designed my own rapture theory crazy as it might sound"

 

yeah it sounds crazy!

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Willamina.

 

Read Romans 5:9 Much more so, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
1 Thess 1:10 --and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to
Come
1 Thess 5:9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Col. 3:4 When Christ Who is our life appears, then you will appear with Him in glory.
Rev. 3:10 because you have kept My command to perservere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shAll come upon the whole world.

Col 3:6 because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience,
John 3:36 He who believes on the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life but the wrath of God abides on him.

It is clear that the wrath of God is intended for unbelievers; and that God rescues the believers from the wrath. We still must endure trials and hardships, but believers will not go through the part of the tribulation known as the wrath of God. It seems highly improbable that Christ in us and the Holy Spirit Who resides in us would be destined for wrath. The church of Philadelphia apparantly will also be delivered from all of the tribulation period--the trial which is coming upon the whole earth. Perhaps some of us will also not have to endure the tribulation; but believers will not endure the wrath. Some may be saved during the tribulation, believing the witnesses who will be resurrected after preaching in the streets of Jeruselem. Many will believe when they realize that the antichrist demands that all worship him. Some will be protected going through the tribulation and be saved in that way. They will populate the earth during the millinium. But only unbelievers will go through the wrath of God.

1 Thess. 3:13 speaks of the return of the Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints. So we must have been taken or snatched away from the earth to be able to return with Him on white horses. Rev. 19:14
Rev. 19:17-21 speaks of all the armies of the antichrist being killed by the sword of His mouth, and the beast and the false prophet were sent to the lake of fire and brimstone. Satan is then cast into the bottomless pit and bound for 1000 years. The saints were given thrones and judgement was committed to them. The 144,000 who were beheaded lived and reigned with Christ for 1000 years. This is the first resurrection. We are told that we will judge the angels. Perhaps we will do that at that time.
At the end of the 1000 years all the rest of the dead are resurrected, and all whose names are not written in the Lambs Book of Life will be judged according to their works. Then death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire and all whose names are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life.
Rev. 21 concerns the new heavens and new earth.

We are to comfort one another with the fact that believers in whom Christ lives will not have to endure the wrath of God, and exhort or edify one another with this knowledge. 1Thess. 5:11. We are also to encourage one another to be faithful to attend church so our love will not grow cold. Heb. 10:25. I do not think of this as a legalistic demand but as an encouragement to do so, that we may remain strong in faith.

 

There are other ways "to avoid the Wrath of God" than to be removed from the earth. There's no precedent for a "removal from earth" to escape His Judgment. What we DO have as precedents in the Scriptures are events such as Pesach (the Passover), the Fiery Furnace, and the Lion's Den, for example.

 

Did God have to remove the Children of Isra'el from the earth to "lower the boom" on Pharaoh and Egypt? No. He protected the Children of Isra'el THROUGH the judgment on the firstborn by means of the blood applied to the doorposts and lintels of their houses, even though the messenger of death went throughout the land of Egypt, even in Goshen.

 

God protected Chananyaah, Mishaa'eel, and `Azaryaah (Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego) THROUGH the fiery furnace by being present with them. He did not "remove them from the earth!"

 

[ As a side note, my method of transliteration of the Hebrew works this way:

 

Letters:

alef = ' ("silent" to the Western ear; like the beginning sound in "umbrella" or "egg")

dalet = d

hei = h

zayin = z

cheit = ch, like the "ch" in "Loch Ness"

yod = y

lamed = l

meim = m

nun = n

`ayin = ` ("silent" to the Western ear; like a "g" made in the back of the throat)

resh = r

shin = sh

 

Vowel pointing:

patach ( - ) = a, "ah" in "father"

qamets ( T ) = aa, "aw" in "saw"

tsere ( .. ) = ee, "ay" in "day"

chireq ( . ) = i, "ee" in "bee"

shva ( : ) = schwa, silent or "uh" in "above" ]

 

God protected Dani'eel THROUGH the lion's den; He didn't "remove him from the earth!"

 

God's Judgment is more like a precision LASER beam than a indiscriminate forest fire! Indeed, we have this promise in Scripture, particularly verse 30:

 

Jeremiah 31:29-34

 

29 In those days they shall say no more, "The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge."

30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: "every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge."

31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

KJV

 

God's Wrath is LOCALIZED in God's Demeanor! If God FROWNS upon someone, that one is in danger of His WRATH. If God SMILES upon someone, that one will be protected from His WRATH, regardless what happens around him!

 

Also, I think we should also take a closer look at Colossians 3:4, 6 in their context:

 

Colossians 3:1-13

 

1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.

8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.

9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

KJV

 

The word for "glory" in verse 4 is not a PLACE; it's a DESCRIPTION, a CONDITION! The Greek word for "glory" in verse 4 is "doxee," the locative case of "doxa" because it follows the preposition "en" (meaning "in"). Strictly speaking, "doxa" means "very apparent," "sticking out" like the proverbial "sore thumb." It's like a white object on a black background, and with that analogy, it also means "glowing," like a star on the black field of space. Hence, it is used for "glow" or "brightness" in 1 Corinthians 15:40-43 (translated as "splendor" in the NIV). It's also the word used for the glow of Moses' face in 1 Corinthians 3:7.

 

The key to this verse in Colossians is the phrase "shall appear," which is the Greek words "faneroothee" and "fanerootheesesthe" respectively, the first being the third person, singular, referring to the Messiah or the Christ, and the second being the second person, plural, referring to those Colossians to whom Paul was writing. Both words are forms of "fanero-oo." (I use "f" for phi, "th" for theta, "o" for an omicron, "oo" for an omega, "e" for an epsilon, and "ee" for an eta.) This word means "to render apparent" or "to make known" or "to reveal." It stems from the word "fainoo" meaning "to shine" or "to appear."

 

So, it's not that He appears here and then we go with him to appear there, in a place called, "Glory"; it's that He is revealed here in HIS BRIGHTNESS, and then we are also revealed WITH HIM IN BRIGHTNESS! Just as Moses' face began to glow when he saw the "back parts" of God, we too will GLOW in Yeshua`s presence! And, Paul told the Corinthians that we would glow with different brightnesses and hues just as stars differ from one another in brightness and hue! (1 Cor. 15:42-43.)

 

We don't need to go anywhere to avoid God's Wrath; we can be protected THROUGH it wherever we are.

 

Now, let me ask the question to you or anyone who believes in the Rapture for either a 7-year period or a 3.5-year period: WHY do we need to go to "Heaven" for that length of time?