France

[nebula]

First of all i shall handle this peice of Nazi style rubbish

I got an even better idea, let's nuke France, then they'll know what a God-fearing nation we really are!!!! They will finally see the light!!!!!!!!!! Let's take this world for Christ, one evil country at a time!!!!!!! Onward, Christian Soldiers!!!!!

LOL MAN!

Oh you're serious?

Oh no! Help! we've got a murderer on our hands!

RUN!!!

Not JUST a murderer, a mass killer, who thinks god is on his side! they're the worst!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey, Daniel -

I just thought you ought to know something. The person who posted this, OneAccord, is a female and a pacifist - a very extreme pacifist. She was being sarcastic as a means of making a point.

the 51st state...

I take it you were eluding to this post:

I pray someday in the near future we go to war with France. It'd be nice to have them as a 51st state so we could stop this nonsense over there.

So, you are French, or live in France, then?

OK, that would explain a lot.

the only one with newspapers other than the new york times... I dont blame americans for their ignorance, how can they know anything with hardly any newspapers?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

True, but, those newpapers would only (or mostly) report on local matters, murders, tax hikes etc. There is a definite shortage of national newspapers in America.

I appologize for laughing Daniel - but your statement is very, very incorrect!

Here, let me show you some other American papers (these are all links):

The Washington Times

USA Today

The Baltimore Sun

The Chicago Tribune

The Dallas News

I don't know what headlines will be up when you click on these links, if you do, but right now they all have world news reports on the cover page.

**************************

OK, everybody -

This discussion is sounding more like a grade school "tit-for-tat" fight than an actual, reasonable, logical debate - and I see this on both sides.

Just because Daniel is throwing out unsubstantiated claims rather than considerations supported with facts does not mean we have to answer with rasberries, OK?

[nebula]

That is true, and i have read the book by Zion Ben Gurion (fictional characters real events) "Exedos" set in that period, but it didnt go into great detail.

Did you mean "Exodus" by Leon Uris?

Would it be fair to say, that the Palestinians are more united now? and they are trying to throw off Israel just as they did the British?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, it would not.

Here, let me offer a challenge: before 1948, what did the people living in the land that was called Palestine by British call themselves?

And I mean for you to provide a reference and not just make a claim.

Can you do this?

[Guest shiloh357]

Would it be fair to say, that the Palestinians are more united now? and they are trying to throw off Israel just as they did the British?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No it would not be fair to say that. The Palestinians are quite divided. You still have those who are more moderate, and those who are more extreme.

There are those who would prefer more diplomacy, and those who want to continue the violence.

You need to look at the history of the conflict a little closer.

Who went to war with Israel in 1948? Saudi Arabia, Irag, Syria, Egypt, and Lebanon and Jordan. Israel was not at war with the Palestinians.

Who went to war with Israel in 1956? Egypt

Who went to war with Israel in 1967? Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. At that time the West Bank and Gaza were under the control of Jordan and Egypt respectively. Israel gained that territory from Jordan and Egypt by fighting a defensive war. Israel did not take the territory from the Palestinians. According to international law, a country that is attacked, is permitted to retain all land it acquires in self defense. It is not required by international law to give the acquired land back.

Who went to war with Israel in 1973? Egypt and Syria.

It was not until 1982 that Israel had to confront the Palestinians directly, and they had to do that in Lebanon after Israel had suffered numerous terrorist attacks coming out of Lebanon. Nearly 18,000 PLO members were encamped in various locations in Lebanon. About 5,000-6,000 were foreign mercenaries, coming from such countries as Libya, Iraq, India, Sri Lanka, Chad and Mozambique. That illustrates why you cannot try to limit the conflict to just the Palestinians and Israel.

Groups like Hamas and Hezbollah are directly funded by other Arab nations. It has been the goal the entire Arab war to wipe Israel off the face of the map.

Since 1948, and even before that, Israel has suffered terrorist attacks by terrorists funded by other Arab nations all over the world.

What you need to understand is, this is not an Israel versus Palestinian war. This is a war of annihilation aimed at the total destruction of Israel by the Arab world. They have tried to get folks like you to only focus on the Palestinians and ignore the role other Arab nations play in all of this. They want the Palestinians to look like underdogs, when they are really just political pawns of the Arab world. The Palestinian "refugee" crisis is the only weapon the Arab world has to use against Israel in the public arena.

Israel is condemned for not repatriating the Palestinians, but has been thwarted by the Arab world through the UN every time they tried. The Arabs will not absorb the refugees THEY created, because it would rob them of their political weapon.

Israel is not merely fighting the Palestinians, they are fighting the entire Arab world which is fighting Israel through the Palestinians. You have six million Jews in one Jewish nation fighting for survival against five hundred million Arabs in 22 Arab nations who have declared that they will exterminate the Jews in the Middle East and wipe Israel off the map. It is a war being waged against Israel by the entire Arab world. In truth it has also become Israel against the world. No other nation has ever been forced to justify its right to exist as Israel has.

The British mandate, in 1921, was split in very unequal amounts, giving the Arabs of the region of Palestine their own nation next to Israel. The Arabs received 75% of the mandate originally promised to the Jews, and the Jews only got 25% of what was promised to them.

Furthermore, the Palestinians have been offered their own country three times in the 20th century. Even before the Palestinians were called "Palestinians, they were offered land, under the Peel commission in 1936, three times the size of what was offered in 1948 and 2000. They turned down the offer even though all their requirements for a contiguous nation were met. This was an offer to create yet ANOTHER Arab state on the paultry 25% of the Jewish portion of the mandate. This would have reduced the Jewish portion of the mandate to about 13% of what was promised promised to them. The Arabs rejected the offer since they would not live side by side with Jews.

Again, in 1948, the Jews agreed to live side by side in peace with the Palestinian Arabs and with a nation that would have been called "Palestine." They adopted the partition plan outlined in UN General Assembly Res. 181. The Arabs rejected the partition, and on May 14, 1948 the nation of Israel was born, and had the Arabs not rejected the partition, we would be talking about an independent nation called "Palestine."

It was the Arabs plan to annihilate Israel on May 15, and they encouraged all Arabs living west of the Jordan to flee their homes until they had destroyed Israel. Their plan failed. The Arabs made refugees out of their own people, and Israel singlehandedly defended themselves and defeated five Arab nations.

In 2000, at Camp David, Israel offered the Palestinians 97% of all that they demanded, and agreed to live next to an independent nation called "Palestine." The world was shocked when Arafat rejected the offer and walked out on the negotiations.

What is it that the Palestinians are trying to "put off?" Israel has tried to give them their nation, and they walk away. Israel has allowed non citizen Palestinians to live off of Israel's welfare program, and Israeli social security. They have built homes for the Palestinians, they have built hospitals and universities for the Palestinians. Israel has given them free health care, and improved their sanitation facilities. In Arab villages, Israel built modern sewage disposal systems. Before Israel, all the Palestinians had was a ditch that went down the middle of the street! Israel has done more the Palestinians, than the Arabs did when they controlled the West Bank and Gaza for nineteen years. Under Jordan and Egyptian rule, the Palestinians had NO health care, no sanitation, barely enough food, and their children were dying of preventable childhood diseases. Israel fixed all of that.

If anything the Palestinians need to put off the Arabs. It is the Arabs that are keeping them down.

[Daniel9601]

im not French but i am fluent in French. Spanish and English.

What about the wall Israel has built? Not between Israel and palestine, but between palestine and istself, why?

Yes i certainly do agree with most of Shilo's said, Palestinians just getting it all wrong. Calling themselves Arabs is funny; a name given by romans to the people of the Suez peninsula, ara-bia.

[Guest shiloh357]

im not French but i am fluent in French.

[Daniel9601]

Well yes indeed, most Scholars know the link between Palestine and the Philistines, but few know the arab link. The Sinai Peninsula, or Ara-bia was designated to the people of that area.

But unless the Philistines hold direct hereditary lineage to their predesecors, then they're most likely arab/muslims, invaders to the area in 7a.d

I do agree with the jews over the fact that god gave them their land, to moses, 3m ago, but, i havnt seen the modern moses leading his people back to Israel now. I havn't seen any wonders like biblical times to lead me to beleive that this is Israel's 2nd returning

[ayin jade]

Is there any particular reason you wont consider these verses as proof that modern Israel still has God's favor?

Eze 37:1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and He brought me out by the Spirit of the LORD and set me down in the middle of the valley; and it was full of bones.

Eze 37:2 He caused me to pass among them round about, and behold, there were very many on the surface of the valley; and lo, they were very dry.

Eze 37:3 He said to me, "Son of man, can these bones live?" And I answered, "O Lord GOD, You know."

Eze 37:4 Again He said to me, "Prophesy over these bones and say to them, 'O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.'

Eze 37:5 "Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones, 'Behold, I will cause breath to enter you that you may come to life.

Eze 37:6 'I will put sinews on you, make flesh grow back on you, cover you with skin and put breath in you that you may come alive; and you will know that I am the LORD.'"

Eze 37:7 So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold, a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to its bone.

Eze 37:8 And I looked, and behold, sinews were on them, and flesh grew and skin covered them; but there was no breath in them.

Eze 37:9 Then He said to me, "Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they come to life."'"

Eze 37:10 So I prophesied as He commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they came to life and stood on their feet, an exceedingly great army.

Eze 37:11 Then He said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel; behold, they say, 'Our bones are dried up and our hope has perished. We are completely cut off.'

Eze 37:12 "Therefore prophesy and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel.

Eze 37:13 "Then you will know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, My people.

Eze 37:14 "I will put My Spirit within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the LORD, have spoken and done it," declares the LORD.'"

Eze 37:21 "Say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land;

Eze 37:22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king will be king for all of them; and they will no longer be two nations and no longer be divided into two kingdoms.

Eze 37:23 "They will no longer defile themselves with their idols, or with their detestable things, or with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. And they will be My people, and I will be their God.

[Daniel9601]

Becuas they refer to the OT and 2500 years ago. Jesus new convenant meant that Israel was no longer the holy land, every land was, the Jews didnt need to worship at the temple, he tore the curtain (to the sanctuary of god, only priests could enter there) and abolished the need for priests. He took away the need to worship exclusivley at Jerusalem, and gave the inheritance to the nations, he died for sins so that sacrifices wouldnt need to made to his father. He took away all the things Jews needed to do, and there were no imperatives to stay in Israel, "go forth and make disciples of all nations," and thats where Christianity takes over from Judaism. Jesus fullfilled the law and showed us a better way to do things.

Sure in Ezra, Neihmiah and the other prophets speak of Israel being reunited, by it 'was' reunited, and the people disobeyed god almost as soon as they got back to Israel. I dont think one can just copy and paste what was said about Israel as compared to what is happening now in the twentyfirst century

Edited January 10, 2005 by Daniel9601

[Budman]

I doubt any of these people have been to France, yet they call me ignorant.

Who says you have to go there to know about it?

I haven't been to heaven (yet) but I can tell ya quite a lot about the place!

warm regards

-bud

[Guest shiloh357]

Well yes indeed, most Scholars know the link between Palestine and the Philistines, but few know the arab link.  The Sinai Peninsula, or Ara-bia was designated to the people of that area.

But unless the Philistines hold direct hereditary lineage to their predesecors, then they're most likely arab/muslims, invaders to the area in 7a.d

I do agree with the jews over the fact that god gave them their land, to moses, 3m ago, but, i havnt seen the modern moses leading his people back to Israel now.  I havn't seen any wonders like biblical times to lead me to beleive that this is Israel's 2nd returning

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But unless the Philistines hold direct hereditary lineage to their predesecors, then they're most likely arab/muslims, invaders to the area in 7a.d

The Philistines were there well before 7 A.D. King David in the OT fought and defeated the Philistines. The Philistines were an Aegean race and were not Arabs.

I do agree with the jews over the fact that god gave them their land, to moses, 3m ago, but, i havnt seen the modern moses leading his people back to Israel now.  I havn't seen any wonders like biblical times to lead me to beleive that this is Israel's 2nd returning

First of all God did not give the Land to Moses, he gave the Land to Abraham

Gen 17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

Gen 17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

Gen 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

God gave the Land to Abraham and his descendents, the Jews as an EVERLASTING Covenant. It is forever. That means that it belongs them today as much as it did 3,000 years ago.

I havn't seen any wonders like biblical times to lead me to beleive that this is Israel's 2nd returning

That would be because of your relative lack of knowledge regarding the history of Israel beginning with the return of Jews to the Land in the earliest parts of the 20th cent. You need to read about the wars Israel has fought.