How many realize immodesty is everyone's fault to some degree?

[JohnD]

We are immodest,

we indulge immodesty,

we tolerate immodesty,

we reward immodesty,

 

Lust is a terrible beast all sides are quick to dismiss of themselves or their pet "side" in a given argument / instance.

 

The Bible teaches in Proverbs 7 that STRONG men are the victims of what it personifies as a "whorish woman" in the previous chapter of Proverbs. 

 

It is King James English. Adulteress (NASB) ... Prostitute (NIV)...

 

Lust, sexual temptation, etc. are a particularly wicked sin because our defenses against it usually fail or are put to the test of running like a scared rabbit rather than standing to face it down...

 

Bear in mind Romans 6 with this opening verse:

 

1 Corinthians 6:12-20 (NIV)
12 “Everything is permissible for me”—but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible for me”—but I will not be mastered by anything.
13 “Food for the stomach and the stomach for food”—but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.
14 By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also.
15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never!
16 Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.”
17 But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit.
18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body.
19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;
20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

 

 

 

 

[missmuffet]

We are immodest,

we indulge immodesty,

we tolerate immodesty,

we reward immodesty,

 

Just don't include me in the "We are immodest" because I am not.Don't include me in the 'We indulge immodesty because I do not".Don't include me in the "We tolerate immodesty" because I do not.And surely don't reward immodesty.I was looking at this wrong lastnight I was too tired.

[Guest Butero]

We are immodest,

we indulge immodesty,

we tolerate immodesty,

we reward immodesty,

 

I would say that you are correct with the above statement.

I am just trying to figure out who "we" are?  Does that mean the nation as a whole, or every single person?  I doubt you are immodest Bopeep, and I know I 'm not.  I don't even wear shorts on the hottest days of summer.  Just wondering where he's coming from on that? 

[JohnD]

 

We are immodest,

we indulge immodesty,

we tolerate immodesty,

we reward immodesty,

 

I would say that you are correct with the above statement.

I am just trying to figure out who "we" are?  Does that mean the nation as a whole, or every single person?  I doubt you are immodest Bopeep, and I know I 'm not.  I don't even wear shorts on the hottest days of summer.  Just wondering where he's coming from on that? 

 

 

You tolerate it in others do you not?

[JohnD]

Then you are part of "we" / "us."

[JohnD]

I mean let's get right down to it.

 

Matthew 5:27-28 (NIV)
27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’
28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

 

You never do this? Never did this?

[JohnD]

Bear in mind the Sermon on the Mount was God's response to what the Jewish leadership had done to the Law over the generations. It was God putting the Law back on track. That is why throughout you read "you have heard it said... but I say..."

 

Matthew 5:27-28 and to a greater extent to verse 30 was also a response to a rabbinical school of thought started by Hillel. The teaching was that a woman who exposed even her legs before men who were not her husband... even by accident... was guilty of a divorceable sin (read that adultery). Based on:

 

Leviticus 18:8 (NASB95)
8 ‘You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father’s wife; it is your father’s nakedness.

 

And:

 

Isaiah 47:1-3 (NASB95)
1 “Come down and sit in the dust, O virgin daughter of Babylon; Sit on the ground without a throne, O daughter of the Chaldeans! For you shall no longer be called tender and delicate.
2 “Take the millstones and grind meal. Remove your veil, strip off the skirt, Uncover the leg, cross the rivers.
3 “Your nakedness will be uncovered, Your shame also will be exposed; I will take vengeance and will not spare a man.”

 

Notice that Jesus did not refute Hillel. He answered Hillel but he did not refute Hillel. He reminded the rabbi / teaching that while it got Leviticus 18:8 / Isaiah 47:1-3 correct about the females... the teaching / Hillel forgot all about:

 

Job 31:1-13 (NIV)
1 “I made a covenant with my eyes not to look lustfully at a girl.
2 For what is man’s lot from God above, his heritage from the Almighty on high?
3 Is it not ruin for the wicked, disaster for those who do wrong?
4 Does he not see my ways and count my every step?
5 “If I have walked in falsehood or my foot has hurried after deceit—
6 let God weigh me in honest scales and he will know that I am blameless—
7 if my steps have turned from the path, if my heart has been led by my eyes, or if my hands have been defiled,
8 then may others eat what I have sown, and may my crops be uprooted.
9 “If my heart has been enticed by a woman, or if I have lurked at my neighbor’s door,
10 then may my wife grind another man’s grain, and may other men sleep with her.
11 For that would have been shameful, a sin to be judged.
12 It is a fire that burns to Destruction; it would have uprooted my harvest.
13 “If I have denied justice to my menservants and maidservants when they had a grievance against me,

[JohnD]

Now we are under a New Covenant. But that does not mean the principles of the Old Covenant are to be discarded. The New Covenant may sound to some as a license to sin...

 

1 John 2:1 (NIV)
1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

 

Romans 6:1-2 (NIV)
1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?
2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?

 

And the consequences of disregarding the virtues of restraint in the Law (especially regarding sexual matters) is all around us. Today mere children routinely deal with being exposed to adult situations that adults should not be exposed to.

 

Setting aside the claim about public depravity (that the conservative fashions in the near future are currently on display in the red light district), man is that a dated sermon excerpt (the red light district is no longer a part of town but people's electronic media devices)... to have to argue why someone would have to show more modesty in Church of all places... and all the "righteous" indignation how dare they? doe this not speak to how far we've slid down this filthy slippery slope?

 

And does this not convey how desensitized we are to how bad it really is?

 

Again... not to force anything legal on anyone... but don't the practical commands still apply?

 

I mean, if not... lock up your stuff 'cause I'm coming to steal all you got so I can live it up...

 

How about murder or marrying a bowl of jello? Pee Wee Herman did a marriage ceremony on his playhouse show to a bowl of jello.

 

Mockery 101. 

 

Do we take these matters seriously or not?

[The_Patriot21]

peewee herman and jello? seriously?

[firestormx]

Now we are under a New Covenant. But that does not mean the principles of the Old Covenant are to be discarded. The New Covenant may sound to some as a license to sin...

 

1 John 2:1 (NIV)

1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

 

Romans 6:1-2 (NIV)

1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?

2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?

 

And the consequences of disregarding the virtues of restraint in the Law (especially regarding sexual matters) is all around us. Today mere children routinely deal with being exposed to adult situations that adults should not be exposed to.

 

Setting aside the claim about public depravity (that the conservative fashions in the near future are currently on display in the red light district), man is that a dated sermon excerpt (the red light district is no longer a part of town but people's electronic media devices)... to have to argue why someone would have to show more modesty in Church of all places... and all the "righteous" indignation how dare they? doe this not speak to how far we've slid down this filthy slippery slope?

 

And does this not convey how desensitized we are to how bad it really is?

 

Again... not to force anything legal on anyone... but don't the practical commands still apply?

 

I mean, if not... lock up your stuff 'cause I'm coming to steal all you got so I can live it up...

 

How about murder or marrying a bowl of jello? Pee Wee Herman did a marriage ceremony on his playhouse show to a bowl of jello.

 

Mockery 101. 

 

Do we take these matters seriously or not?

I think all of us at one time or another have stressed our pet doctrine's and ignored or not paid much attention to anything else. Justify what they believe and discredit anything that contradicts. I would agree that even though we are under the new covenant the practical commands or " Moral Law " still applies. I think the problem comes in at our different understandings and interpretations.  

 

For Instance, I was in a conversation with someone once about divorce and remarriage. There stance was, fornication meant pre-marital sex only, so the only way to remarry was to have been lied to about there past sex history before marriage or the partners death. They told me if someone divorces and remarries they are living in constant sin and will go to hell if they don't repent and leave the marriage. So I asked the first logical question that came to my mind. Is murder forgivable? ( Lost yet? He was to). He said if someone truly repents in there heart then yes, of course they could be forgiven for murder. So then I asked him, " Let me get this straight. A person divorces and remarries and they will go to hell if they don't leave the marriage and from there heart repent? But, If that same person killed there spouse, repented and then remarried there ok, and the marriage is right in the eyes of God? " I kid you not, he said yes, that was right. While murder is always wrong, it would be better than to live in constant sin.

 

My point with that story ( which is true ) was just that some people have lost all perspective on the "virtues of restraint in the law" as you put it.  I personally receive what your saying as, we have lost our perspective on what biblical Holiness and personal biblical conviction really are. If that is what you are saying, I agree.

 

God Bless You All

Firestormx

Joseph

Edited August 14, 2013 by firestormx