Speaking in tongues 2

[GoldenEagle]

 

G. In a public setting two to three at the most are to speak in tongues and there must be an interpretation. If there is no interpretation we are instructed not to speak in tongues.

²⁶ What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up. ²⁷ If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. ²⁸ If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God.

 

 

This is a clear proof that a tongue speaker is spirited (human) to speak in an unknown language. Many seem to claim that Holy Spirit gives utterance. If a person is given utterance by the Holy Spirit, no mortal man has authority to stop that. Besides, no interpreter is required.

 

 

 

J. Tongues are not prohibited as long as there is order.

³⁹ Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. ⁴⁰ But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.

 

Anything that God gives will be in order. This disorderly conduct that was not there when Paul was at Corinth before; Paul condones the people for the already developed trait but advises them to desire superior gifts.

 

 

 

Please clarify what you mean with point G?

Please clarify what you mean with poiint F?

God bless,

GE

[GoldenEagle]

 

 

 

 

The entire Bible was written by God, so the words of Jesus don't supersede other scriptures.  They are in reality all the words of God. 

 

 

This is a very good point brother.

 

It may be worthwhile to consider Gospel of John 3:1-21 and especially John 4:21-24 before this deduction.

 

Not sure what you mean KT. What are you wanting to consider with theis passage in John 3?

 

 

Can we go back to OT rituals etc. since it is also word of God? Did not death Jesus of the cross made them in a way invalid?

 

 

I'm not sure how this has to do with John 3 but I do agree that ceremonial laws are no longer necessary for the Christian. Jesus didn't make them invalid - they have not lost value. We can still learn from God's Word even regarding Israel and the ceremonial laws. With the new temple of God being the Believer indwelt by the Holy Spirit ceremonial laws are no longer necessary.

 

God bless,

GE

[Knowingtruth]

 

Paul lists spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 12-14, Romans 12, and Ephesians 4. Of the three, 1 Corinthians is generally believed to have been penned first, Romans second, and Ephesians last (in order of the letters we are speaking of here).

 

The conditions in Corinth was worst. To bring order there, Paul came up with a condition of interpretation(that is not found in the book of Acts or elsewhere) hoping that speaking of unknown tongue prompted by person's spirit would cease as church grew in spirituality as it was sign meant for unbelievers.

 

I believe it ceased there soon as people took the advice of Paul to prefer prophesying. We don't see this phenomenon of speaking in an unknown tongue either in Rome or Ephesian subsequently, and it is not listed in the corresponding epistles.

 

 

 

You believe it ceased?   Some say miracles and divine intervention of God in the lives of believers in general and the church as a whole also ceased.   These persons are either lacking in faith or possibly have made themselves disciples of the devil.

 

I believe miracles have not ceased.   If they had, I'd be dead now a half dozen times over and certain members of my family as well.   That miracles and divine providence operates in the lives of believers is a matter which has been attested to daily since the days the scripture was written.   I believe those who deny it, deny the power of God and true religion.  They have convinced themselves of a lie.

 

Please do not mix-up giftsl

 

 

 

As to the purpose of tongues, I believe it was and remains a spiritual testimony of the presence and power of the holy spirit.

 

Go to the book of acts where the first record of tongues is recorded.

 

This is not the same as what was observed in Corinth.   

 

 

 

I believe ignorance of the existence and power of the Holy Spirit is the true issue here, not a cheap magician's act or circus performance.   As it was then, so it is now, that many people who have believed in Christianity have NOT been baptized into Christ.   They may have been dipped or sprinkled in water and may have filled out a membership card, but that does not equate to receiving Christ into their lives via the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

 

It is not automatic.   God expects us to know what is going on.   God expects us to know that which we have been given and that is why the Holy Spirit came upon the people recorded in the Bible with such power.  They simply didn't know.  Period.   God showed them.

 

Jesus gives baptism by the Holy Spirit. Mortal men can only give water baptism.

 

 

 

Today many have been instructed, but resist both the power and the truth of religion.  God continues to act in the world in miraculous ways.  God expects us to know about it AND TO SHARE THESE MATTERS WITH OTHERS.   We are commanded to testify of that which Christ has done for us - so that people will know.

That is right.

[Knowingtruth]

 G. In a public setting two to three at the most are to speak in tongues and there must be an interpretation. If there is no interpretation we are instructed not to speak in tongues.

²⁶ What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up. ²⁷ If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. ²⁸ If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God.

 

I think what was observed subsequently at Corinth after Paul left may be best explained by a joke and stories. Please bear with me.

 

Joke: A dictator of a country decides to help the poor by issuing food grains. They were asked to approach the Food department. One poor guy approaches the officer in the dept. The officer looks for the poor guy's name in the official list. He finds his name under the list of the dead. Hence, refuses to issue the quota. Poor man pleads saying that he is very much alive and can bring witnesses. Annoyed by the pleading, the impatient officer pulls out a revolver from the drawer and shoots the guy declaring that the official records cannot go wrong!

 

When this speaking of unknown tongue was dead as a dodo for centuries, a few people had a look at the canonised Bible about 100 years ago and said that this cannot go wrong. So revived it on their own!

 

 

 

J. Tongues are not prohibited as long as there is order.

³⁹ Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. ⁴⁰ But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.

A story: A small church in a village was administered by a godly pastor along with innocent and semiliterate folks. His pet dog used to cause disturbance during worship service by jumping on them and howling during singing etc. The congregation decided to kill the dog. But the pastor forbid them to do so. He told them to tie up the dog outside before the service. So this chaining of the dog was done whenever they had service and meetings. The pastor dies after sometime. The remaining folk continued to tie up the dog as the services were led by a senior member with basic knowledge of the Scripture. The dog also dies. However, these innocent folks think that a dog is required as a part of their service, so they get one dog and start chaining that before their services.

 

Here is another story of Leo Tolstoy that I have modified (without his permission--may his soul rest in peace): One evangelist lands in a remote island ship wrecked. As he waits for another ship to pick him up, he gets acquainted with local people who were less learned but with strong faith in Jesus. Noticing that they were not speaking in tongues, he teaches how to do that. After a couple of weeks, a small boat arrives to pick him up. He bids farewell to them and gets into the boat. As he leaves with the boat, within a few minutes a sees a small crowd shouting at him and coming to meet him for seeking clarification on techniques he had taught them. They were walking on the water and approaching the boat. The shocked evangelist goes down on his knees blurting out how can he possibly teach these people of great faith in Jesus Christ that may even cause envy(?) in the heart of Peter!

 

I sincerely hope these will clarify your points. Be blessed.

[Knowingtruth]

 

 

 

 

 

The entire Bible was written by God, so the words of Jesus don't supersede other scriptures.  They are in reality all the words of God. 

 

 

This is a very good point brother.

 

It may be worthwhile to consider Gospel of John 3:1-21 and especially John 4:21-24 before this deduction.

 

Not sure what you mean KT. What are you wanting to consider with theis passage in John 3?

 

 

Can we go back to OT rituals etc. since it is also word of God? Did not death Jesus of the cross made them in a way invalid?

 

 

I'm not sure how this has to do with John 3 but I do agree that ceremonial laws are no longer necessary for the Christian. Jesus didn't make them invalid - they have not lost value. We can still learn from God's Word even regarding Israel and the ceremonial laws. With the new temple of God being the Believer indwelt by the Holy Spirit ceremonial laws are no longer necessary.

 

In otherwords, I think, they became superfluous. But many Messianic Jews do not consider that way. There are Christians who want to support the building of a temple(anti-Christ activities) forgetting that they need to look forward to the spiritual temple in Jesus Christ! Therefore, the context is extremely important to apply the epistles in our lives. The truth should set us free indeed. Be blessed.

[OneLight]

 

 

 

 

 

I would be very interested to see where in scripture He tells us that tongues has ceased. I am not interested in human logic, but scripture.

 

The very fact that Paul discouraged that type of practice, and his subsequent letters indicated in the OP do not include them along with the entire Bible are very good proof that it was a local phenomenon observed in the notorious Corinth! He also hints at its ceasing--when, a matter of discerment.

 

 

 

Can you supply the scripture you are referring to?

 

 

Everything cannot be provided through Scripture that is limited.(John 21:25) Many were lost and destroyed before Canon was decided. For that main reason  Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to discern the truth even though Scripture existed at that time.

 

If you have not experiences someone speaking in tongues that were from God, then you have missed a real blessing. Who do you think give tongues if not the Holy Spirit? I will agree that I have heard false tongues. I have also have heard real tongues and was bless from this. I will also say that there are those who do not follow the leading of the Holy Spirit nor scripture, but that does not mean tongues are not real.

 

I do not know which type of tongue you are referring to, unknown or known tongue? I believe the unknown tongue that was observed only in Corinth disappeared.

 

 

As I said, "you believe", so you refuse to go any further.  Scripture does not tell us tongues, known or unknown, have ceased.

[Knowingtruth]

 

 

 

 

 

 

I would be very interested to see where in scripture He tells us that tongues has ceased. I am not interested in human logic, but scripture.

 

The very fact that Paul discouraged that type of practice, and his subsequent letters indicated in the OP do not include them along with the entire Bible are very good proof that it was a local phenomenon observed in the notorious Corinth! He also hints at its ceasing--when, a matter of discerment.

 

 

 

Can you supply the scripture you are referring to?

 

 

Everything cannot be provided through Scripture that is limited.(John 21:25) Many were lost and destroyed before Canon was decided. For that main reason  Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to discern the truth even though Scripture existed at that time.

 

If you have not experiences someone speaking in tongues that were from God, then you have missed a real blessing. Who do you think give tongues if not the Holy Spirit? I will agree that I have heard false tongues. I have also have heard real tongues and was bless from this. I will also say that there are those who do not follow the leading of the Holy Spirit nor scripture, but that does not mean tongues are not real.

 

I do not know which type of tongue you are referring to, unknown or known tongue? I believe the unknown tongue that was observed only in Corinth disappeared.

 

 

As I said, "you believe", so you refuse to go any further.  Scripture does not tell us tongues, known or unknown, have ceased.

 

Matter regarding speaking in unknown tongue is a BIG ZERO in the rest of the entire Bible. Can we not see that plainly? Those who have  picked up what was in Corinth now do admit that it had ceased for centuries before its revival about 100 years ago in USA. 

[rjp34652]

 

 

Paul lists spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 12-14, Romans 12, and Ephesians 4. Of the three, 1 Corinthians is generally believed to have been penned first, Romans second, and Ephesians last (in order of the letters we are speaking of here).

 

The conditions in Corinth was worst. To bring order there, Paul came up with a condition of interpretation(that is not found in the book of Acts or elsewhere) hoping that speaking of unknown tongue prompted by person's spirit would cease as church grew in spirituality as it was sign meant for unbelievers.

 

I believe it ceased there soon as people took the advice of Paul to prefer prophesying. We don't see this phenomenon of speaking in an unknown tongue either in Rome or Ephesian subsequently, and it is not listed in the corresponding epistles.

 

 

 

You believe it ceased?   Some say miracles and divine intervention of God in the lives of believers in general and the church as a whole also ceased.   These persons are either lacking in faith or possibly have made themselves disciples of the devil.

 

I believe miracles have not ceased.   If they had, I'd be dead now a half dozen times over and certain members of my family as well.   That miracles and divine providence operates in the lives of believers is a matter which has been attested to daily since the days the scripture was written.   I believe those who deny it, deny the power of God and true religion.  They have convinced themselves of a lie.

 

Please do not mix-up giftsl

 

 

 

As to the purpose of tongues, I believe it was and remains a spiritual testimony of the presence and power of the holy spirit.

 

Go to the book of acts where the first record of tongues is recorded.

 

This is not the same as what was observed in Corinth.   

 

 

 

I believe ignorance of the existence and power of the Holy Spirit is the true issue here, not a cheap magician's act or circus performance.   As it was then, so it is now, that many people who have believed in Christianity have NOT been baptized into Christ.   They may have been dipped or sprinkled in water and may have filled out a membership card, but that does not equate to receiving Christ into their lives via the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

 

It is not automatic.   God expects us to know what is going on.   God expects us to know that which we have been given and that is why the Holy Spirit came upon the people recorded in the Bible with such power.  They simply didn't know.  Period.   God showed them.

 

Jesus gives baptism by the Holy Spirit. Mortal men can only give water baptism.

 

 

 

Today many have been instructed, but resist both the power and the truth of religion.  God continues to act in the world in miraculous ways.  God expects us to know about it AND TO SHARE THESE MATTERS WITH OTHERS.   We are commanded to testify of that which Christ has done for us - so that people will know.

 

 

That is right.

 

 

 

Without a quote from you, I've not got much to go on.   You do refer to Corinthians and I'm guessing that you mean 1 Corinthians 14.   If so, your interpretation is generally wrong.

 

1 Corinthians 14 is a long dissertation by St. Paul suggesting that the excitement the church is experiencing about tongues ought to be moderated.   To this day, congregations where this happens sometimes tend to get carried away with the experience and forget the weightier matters of the faith.   Be that as it may, scripture never implies or suggests that the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the world or that any of its' gifts will be taken out or that any of its gifts are to be interpreted as being wrong or in error.   Scripture implies that all things should be done in order, that's all.

 

I'm not mixing up gifts.   All the gifts of the Holy Spirit in evidence during the first century are still being bestowed upon man today.  God has not turned His back upon us.

 

***

 

In another post you suggested that the gifts of the spirit were turned off and on again like water from a faucet.  Specifically that the gifts were invented in the early twentieth century.  Nothing could be further from the truth.   

 

In America, the revival scene was popular way before the Revolution.   I used to live in Western New York State in Rochester.   The area between Syracuse and Buffalo (please consult a map if it doesn't come to mind) was called the 'burned over district' because itinerant preachers traveled back and forth.   The Holy Spirit bestowed its' blessings upon the people there over and over and over again.   

 

Further south in America, the general area called the Bible belt experienced similar heated waves of spiritual expression and experience.   Space is not sufficient for me to list them all.   Much further back, chronicles of the Crusades cite extreme examples of Holy Spirit visitations, experiences and tremendous miracles.  People were even knocked to the ground due to the severity of their experience.  Today its called 'slain in the spirit'.  It never stopped happening.

 

The Bible says that the Holy Spirit comes and goes like the wind.  Nobody knows where it comes from and nobody knows where it goes.  Wind.  Not faucet water.

 

History records that the gifts of the Holy Spirit did not abate.   The testimony of Holy Fire goes down through the ages.  The Holy Spirit has not gone slack, neither did it need to be reinvented as atheists claim it to be.   Then again atheists deny anything that their small minds cannot grasp or invent which is probably why they have a problem with God.

 

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

[Knowingtruth]

 

 

 

Paul lists spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 12-14, Romans 12, and Ephesians 4. Of the three, 1 Corinthians is generally believed to have been penned first, Romans second, and Ephesians last (in order of the letters we are speaking of here).

 

The conditions in Corinth was worst. To bring order there, Paul came up with a condition of interpretation(that is not found in the book of Acts or elsewhere) hoping that speaking of unknown tongue prompted by person's spirit would cease as church grew in spirituality as it was sign meant for unbelievers.

 

I believe it ceased there soon as people took the advice of Paul to prefer prophesying. We don't see this phenomenon of speaking in an unknown tongue either in Rome or Ephesian subsequently, and it is not listed in the corresponding epistles.

 

 

 

You believe it ceased?   Some say miracles and divine intervention of God in the lives of believers in general and the church as a whole also ceased.   These persons are either lacking in faith or possibly have made themselves disciples of the devil.

 

I believe miracles have not ceased.   If they had, I'd be dead now a half dozen times over and certain members of my family as well.   That miracles and divine providence operates in the lives of believers is a matter which has been attested to daily since the days the scripture was written.   I believe those who deny it, deny the power of God and true religion.  They have convinced themselves of a lie.

 

Please do not mix-up giftsl

 

 

 

As to the purpose of tongues, I believe it was and remains a spiritual testimony of the presence and power of the holy spirit.

 

Go to the book of acts where the first record of tongues is recorded.

 

This is not the same as what was observed in Corinth.   

 

 

 

I believe ignorance of the existence and power of the Holy Spirit is the true issue here, not a cheap magician's act or circus performance.   As it was then, so it is now, that many people who have believed in Christianity have NOT been baptized into Christ.   They may have been dipped or sprinkled in water and may have filled out a membership card, but that does not equate to receiving Christ into their lives via the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

 

It is not automatic.   God expects us to know what is going on.   God expects us to know that which we have been given and that is why the Holy Spirit came upon the people recorded in the Bible with such power.  They simply didn't know.  Period.   God showed them.

 

Jesus gives baptism by the Holy Spirit. Mortal men can only give water baptism.

 

 

 

Today many have been instructed, but resist both the power and the truth of religion.  God continues to act in the world in miraculous ways.  God expects us to know about it AND TO SHARE THESE MATTERS WITH OTHERS.   We are commanded to testify of that which Christ has done for us - so that people will know.

 

 

That is right.

 

 

 

Without a quote from you, I've not got much to go on.   You do refer to Corinthians and I'm guessing that you mean 1 Corinthians 14.   If so, your interpretation is generally wrong.

 

1 Corinthians 14 is a long dissertation by St. Paul suggesting that the excitement the church is experiencing about tongues ought to be moderated.   To this day, congregations where this happens sometimes tend to get carried away with the experience and forget the weightier matters of the faith.   Be that as it may, scripture never implies or suggests that the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the world or that any of its' gifts will be taken out or that any of its gifts are to be interpreted as being wrong or in error.   Scripture implies that all things should be done in order, that's all.

 

I'm not mixing up gifts.   All the gifts of the Holy Spirit in evidence during the first century are still being bestowed upon man today.  God has not turned His back upon us.

 

***

 

In another post you suggested that the gifts of the spirit were turned off and on again like water from a faucet.  Specifically that the gifts were invented in the early twentieth century.  Nothing could be further from the truth.   

 

In America, the revival scene was popular way before the Revolution.   I used to live in Western New York State in Rochester.   The area between Syracuse and Buffalo (please consult a map if it doesn't come to mind) was called the 'burned over district' because itinerant preachers traveled back and forth.   The Holy Spirit bestowed its' blessings upon the people there over and over and over again.   

 

Further south in America, the general area called the Bible belt experienced similar heated waves of spiritual expression and experience.   Space is not sufficient for me to list them all.   Much further back, chronicles of the Crusades cite extreme examples of Holy Spirit visitations, experiences and tremendous miracles.  People were even knocked to the ground due to the severity of their experience.  Today its called 'slain in the spirit'.  It never stopped happening.

 

The Bible says that the Holy Spirit comes and goes like the wind.  Nobody knows where it comes from and nobody knows where it goes.  Wind.  Not faucet water.

 

History records that the gifts of the Holy Spirit did not abate.   The testimony of Holy Fire goes down through the ages.  The Holy Spirit has not gone slack, neither did it need to be reinvented as atheists claim it to be.   Then again atheists deny anything that their small minds cannot grasp or invent which is probably why they have a problem with God.

 

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

I am not saying all the spiritual gifts have ceased. I am only pointing out that the speaking in unknown tongue through person's spirit ceased in conformity with what Paul advised.

[GoldenEagle]

 

I do not know which type of tongue you are referring to, unknown or known tongue? I believe the unknown tongue that was observed only in Corinth disappeared.

 

 

 

That may be your personal belief brother. But we should be careful not to compare personal beliefs or private convictions with Biblical truths. Jerry Bridges has a good perspective on this...

 

"We must not seek to bind the consciences of other believers with the private convictions that arise out of our personal walk with God. Even if you believe God has led you in developing those convictions, you still must not elevate them to the level of spiritual principles for everyone else to follow." ~ Jerry Bridges