Speaking in tongues 2

[Knowingtruth]

 

 

 

Tongues did cease for thousands of years. It got revived about 100 years back. You have no Scripture to indicate that demons hate tongues. I believe many spiritual gifts have continued, and least preferred ones that were local in Corinth have ceased.

Strange you say this.  What gifts came outside of Corinth?  Notice which are listed in 1 Corinthians 12.

 

Please provide scripture that you have formed your belief from so we can see why you believe this way.

 

Please see my OP

 

 

Peter in Acts 2:38 mentions in singular 'the gift'. He meant the greatest  gift of all, that is, salvation. The gift may include baptism by the Holy Spirit, being born from above, etc.

 

 

Come now, we are speaking of gifts given by the Holy Spirit for the use within the body, not the gift of Salvation, which is what all this is based on.

 

All spiritual gifts when not used for common good are counter productive jeopardizing salvation. Again without the fruit of the Spirit, namely, love they are useless.

 

[Knowingtruth]

 

That is not what I mean. I believe spiritual gifts are more than what has been listed by Paul. In that I have experienced all the seven gifts in varied degrees. I will never seek the last two as many Pentecostal do since Paul himself doesn't recommend. When the seventh ceases, automatically the last one disappears. We cannot think of one gift dependent on another!

Please explain what you mean above in red.

 

There are 9 gifts, not 7.  You are dismissing the work of the Holy Spirit due to your lack of faith in all of scripture.

 

Since Paul had advised not to prefer the 8th and 9th, I am not interested in seeking them. Please go through the first seven gifts to understand my statement.

[OneLight]

 

 

That is not what I mean. I believe spiritual gifts are more than what has been listed by Paul. In that I have experienced all the seven gifts in varied degrees. I will never seek the last two as many Pentecostal do since Paul himself doesn't recommend. When the seventh ceases, automatically the last one disappears. We cannot think of one gift dependent on another!

Please explain what you mean above in red.

 

There are 9 gifts, not 7.  You are dismissing the work of the Holy Spirit due to your lack of faith in all of scripture.

 

Since Paul had advised not to prefer the 8th and 9th, I am not interested in seeking them. Please go through the first seven gifts to understand my statement.

 

 

Please show the scripture where Paul advises not to prefer to tongues.  All Paul said was "But earnestly desire the best gifts" in 1 Corinthians 12:31.  He is not saying to ignore tongues. You are reading into Paul's words something that is not there.

I also asked if you would explain what you had said, which I placed in red. I would like to understand what you mean.

[Knowingtruth]

 

When did the gift of tongues cease and why only this gift? Is there testimony anywhere (supported by others) that it had ceased? If so please provide...

 

 

It is post-Bible, so I cannot quote verses on that. But considering the tone of the letter of Paul with preference to greater gifts, I believe this special combination of speaking and interpretation ceased. It can only be made out by the subsequent history. I am certain for many centuries it disappeared.

 

 

1 Corinthians 13 indicates it would not cease until the perfect comes has the perfect came? If it has, when they did, then the preaching gifts and what we call "knowledge" also ceased at that time and this would be the
now" when we know even as we are known (but we do not...we still know in part).

 

I believe that speaking in known tongue (language) will also cease when perfect comes naturally. Please also read verse 11 that may be related to speaking in unknown tongue.

 

 

 

[Knowingtruth]

 

 

To this category falls what are mentioned in Mark (though the portion that mentions of the new tongue is believed to be a later addition to the book) and the entire book of Acts.That is considered as a known tongue.

 

 

 

Yeah! Cessationists usually try and use the modernist short version of Mark (based on the 4th century very edited Vaticanus and Sinaiticus which differ between each other)...and as for Acts...considered by who? Oh yeah thats right the cessationists again....there is no reason scriptural or otherwise to consider the tongues in Acts (other than Acts 2 and 10 for reasons already explained) anything but a tongue that no man understands (how many men equals none?)

 

 

 

 

Even ignoring additions in Mark, yet it is new tongue, not an unknown tongue. Whether Mark or Acts, there is no scene with  an interpreter because it relates to speaking known tongue motivated by the Holy Spirit. In Corinth, it was person's spirit that required an interpreter.

 

 

 

In other words these opinions do not support your position unless you can give evidence for these claims never believed before the past 1 or 2 hundred years....if however you wish to discuss each of these positions let us start with Mark as there is less room for speculation after all evidences are discussed...let me know...

 

Where else you see the requirement of an interpreter? No where in the Bible!

[Knowingtruth]

 

Please show the scripture where Paul advises not to prefer to tongues.  All Paul said was "But earnestly desire the best gifts" in 1 Corinthians 12:31.  He is not saying to ignore tongues. You are reading into Paul's words something that is not there.

Not only that, Paul said all spiritual gifts are useless if not accompanied by the fruit of the Spirit.

I also asked if you would explain what you had said, which I placed in red. I would like to understand what you mean.

 

Since Paul had advised not to prefer the 8th and 9th, I am not interested in seeking them. Please go through the first seven gifts to understand my statement.

 

 

 

Please explain what you mean above in red.

 

There are 9 gifts, not 7.  You are dismissing the work of the Holy Spirit due to your lack of faith in all of scripture.

 

Before Scripture comes to picture, you do not want to consider what Paul advised? Excuse me, it may run to several pages if I tried to explain my experiences with the first seven gifts.

 

 

[OneLight]

Please show the scripture where Paul advises not to prefer to tongues.  All Paul said was "But earnestly desire the best gifts" in 1 Corinthians 12:31.  He is not saying to ignore tongues. You are reading into Paul's words something that is not there.

 

Not only that, Paul said all spiritual gifts are useless if not accompanied by the fruit of the Spirit.

Once again, you do not provide scripture to back what you say. This is getting very tiresome.

So to set the facts straight, I was saying that Paul in no way, form or matter say that the gifts of speaking in tongues or the interpretation of tongues should be ignored. I placed my words in bold so you can easily read them again. One one hand, you claim the gifts are useless if not accompanied by the Holy Spirit, then on the other hand you claim Paul overrides the Holy Spirit by claiming to ignore the lesser gifts. This is a full contradiction. The Holy Spirit gives gifts as He sees fit to be used by the body for His purpose. God never confers with man to see if it is OK to use what He wills to use.

 

I also asked if you would explain what you had said, which I placed in red. I would like to understand what you mean.

 

Since Paul had advised not to prefer the 8th and 9th, I am not interested in seeking them. Please go through the first seven gifts to understand my statement.

See above. Paul never made any such claim. You are reading into the words of Paul what you wish them to say.

 

Please explain what you mean above in red.

 

There are 9 gifts, not 7.  You are dismissing the work of the Holy Spirit due to your lack of faith in all of scripture.

 

Before Scripture comes to picture, you do not want to consider what Paul advised? Excuse me, it may run to several pages if I tried to explain my experiences with the first seven gifts.

First, it is all about scripture, which we have been asking you to provide to back your claims. As you can see from my many replies on this, Paul advised to seek after the best gifts, not to ignore the lesser gifts, as you claim and desire to do. You are twisting Paul's words to fit your theology.

As for your explanation, I am willing to read what you have to say on this, even if it does take a few pages. Break them down into each gift, if you prefer. You made a bold statement and I would like you to explain.

[Knowingtruth]

 

So to set the facts straight, I was saying that Paul in no way, form or matter say that the gifts of speaking in tongues or the interpretation of tongues should be ignored.

 

He said desire greater gifts, right? Show by your method if we wanted to try, where he said speaking in tongues or the interpretation of tongues should not be ignored? Scripture please.

 

I placed my words in bold so you can easily read them again. One one hand, you claim the gifts are useless if not accompanied by the Holy Spirit, then on the other hand you claim Paul overrides the Holy Spirit by claiming to ignore the lesser gifts. This is a full contradiction. The Holy Spirit gives gifts as He sees fit to be used by the body for His purpose. God never confers with man to see if it is OK to use what He wills to use.

 

I see your confusion here because you are clubbing known and unknown tongues. Once the spiritual gifts are received, the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with them. It is left to the person to use them for common good. These gifts are useless unaccompanied by the fruit of the Spirit. Probably you may be aware of the fact that in many Pentecostal based churches they teach how to get the knack of praying in unknown tongues. They may even fix up a schedule of keeping the right musical instruments ready to build up sufficient  crescendo for that purpose. It is like dating with the Holy Spirit!
 

As for your explanation, I am willing to read what you have to say on this, even if it does take a few pages. Break them down into each gift, if you prefer. You made a bold statement and I would like you to explain.

 

I would like to share my testimony. I will try one by one when I find time.

 

[Knowingtruth]

 

I cannot show something in the Scripture that happened later. I cannot show it to you that temple got destroyed in the Bible. So, one need to depend on reliable history.Please show me how many apostels, apostolic Fathers, Church Fathers, Popes, Heads of Greek orthodox  and Russian Chuches spoke in unknown tongues.

 

I am pointing out the flaws of your reasoning and your reluctance to prove what you say.  I am not asking you to prove something "later."  You are continually saying "Paul said this," or "Paul said that," but when it is pointed out that isn't what he said, you go off on another tangent.  You never offer scriptural proof for what you claim Paul said.  Paul wasn't speaking in a vacuum.  And he was giving clear instructions for the use of spiritual gifts while practicing them himself.

 

Atleast I would expect people do what Paul did. That is, not to speak in unknown tongue in public/church. That would solve all confusion and disorderly behavior inside a church.

 

The destruction of the Temple has nothing to do with the gifts of the Spirit.  There is no scriptural tie-in with the Temple at all.  The destruction of the Temple was God's way of illustrating that Jesus' death was now the only acceptable sacrifice for sin that God would receive.

 

We may agree on that. Not so many who are after building another temple based on their interpretation of Scripture.

 

All the original Apostles spoke in tongues.  There is no such thing as Apostolic succession, and we have no one in the New Testament being referred to as Apostles beyond the original set.

 

You are wrong with regard to speaking in unknown tongue! Who are in the original set?

 

Define "Church fathers."  As for Popes or heads of Greek Orthodox or Russian Orthodox, they cannot be used as examples when it comes to speaking in tongues because they have never embraced the scriptures only and the majority of their doctrine is aberrant.  They are not a branch of Jesus' original church, they are a poor and mostly pagan mutation of it, and they still operate in their original error, as well as ones added over time.

 

Don't forget that you got the Scripture from them! Can I presume that this tongue with interpretation began with Scriptures only stand?

 

[OneLight]

So to set the facts straight, I was saying that Paul in no way, form or matter say that the gifts of speaking in tongues or the interpretation of tongues should be ignored.

 

He said desire greater gifts, right? Show by your method if we wanted to try, where he said speaking in tongues or the interpretation of tongues should not be ignored? Scripture please.

1 Corinthians 14:5

I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.

verse 18

I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all

 

 

I placed my words in bold so you can easily read them again. One one hand, you claim the gifts are useless if not accompanied by the Holy Spirit, then on the other hand you claim Paul overrides the Holy Spirit by claiming to ignore the lesser gifts. This is a full contradiction. The Holy Spirit gives gifts as He sees fit to be used by the body for His purpose. God never confers with man to see if it is OK to use what He wills to use.

 

I see your confusion here because you are clubbing known and unknown tongues. Once the spiritual gifts are received, the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with them. It is left to the person to use them for common good. These gifts are useless unaccompanied by the fruit of the Spirit. Probably you may be aware of the fact that in many Pentecostal based churches they teach how to get the knack of praying in unknown tongues. They may even fix up a schedule of keeping the right musical instruments ready to build up sufficient  crescendo for that purpose. It is like dating with the Holy Spirit!

Really? So, when people prophesy, they are not speaking from what God gave them to say? Or, when someone uses the gift of healing, they are the ones who are healing and not God? When someone gives a word of knowledge into a situation, they can see this without the help of the Holy Spirit? How about miracles. man can perform miracles without the power of the Holy Spirit? You could not be any further from the truth.

As for tongues, any language that you do not know is an "unknown" tongue, yet that terminology is not used in the Greek manuscript, but added to the KJV for some reason. DO yourself a favor and look at the Interlinear Bible on www.scripture4all.org and see how the Greek was written to better understand.

 

 

As for your explanation, I am willing to read what you have to say on this, even if it does take a few pages. Break them down into each gift, if you prefer. You made a bold statement and I would like you to explain.

 

I would like to share my testimony. I will try one by one when I find time.

If this is a testimony, we do have a Forum just for testimonies. White it and post it there. You can then inform us when it is poster.