Speaking in tongues 2

[Knowingtruth]

 

 

 

 

 

Of course, one cannot deny that there was lot of confusion and disorderly conduct in Corinth befoe Paul came up with this solution of interpretation. You think if everything is done in order, it  is due to the motivation of the Holy Spirit. Gambling in casinos are very well done in order! Right here in this thread that there are admissions  that all interpretatios are not right! And there is no proof of the veracity of the interpretation. Sometimes more than one interpretation is available. All spoken words should be verified for conformity with what Jesus preached. Claim of Interpretation may be simply some ear tickling statements other than what was spoken!

 

 

 

I simply go by Paul's advice and do not prefer lower-end gifts. When God has given one of the greatest gifts of all in proper speech, why should I employ something that I do not know? However, I am interested in knowning how you have operated that in your life. You see, private prayer done in whatever language cannot be faked. It is the public display in words whether tongues or interpretation that is questioned. Again I am not saying all the gifts have ceased.

 

 

 

Revelation speaks of spiritual temple. That is your interpretation that I do not accept. Prophecies cannot be called facts. If fact, it cannot be a prophecy. The fact is that there is no temple now. The place was snatched away from stubborn and stiff-necked people and handed over to Muslims who recognize Jesus as an apostle of God whereas Jews totally reject Him!

 

 

 

Please spell out clearly in that case. How many twelve or more? Who are they? This is important.

 

 

 

You appear to forget the time frame here. When Paul wrote 1 Cornithians, I believe, all the Gospels in the form we have now were not available. John's epistles also came up later. The period of penning of John's Revelation is disputed.  Would you please list the 27 books that you appear to indicate that they were available to the first Jerusalem Church? It cannot be so!

 

You think  Martin Luther existed before Peter, Clement of Rome, et al before Scripture only concept came into being? Is not the Catholics headed by a Pope came into being first? What was Luther before his reformation steps?

 

Scriptural proof.  Show it to me.  You keep saying this and that.  Give me the proof.  Something that is beyond your own personal opinion.  Because you don't know the Bible, and you don't know Church History.

 

Let us go by what you say. Please give Scripture proof to disprove what I am saying.

 

There have been many people who have asked you to provide scripture for what you have said and you have refused for the vast majority of these requests.  You are the one who has come here to try to convince us that tongues are not for today, that they should be ignored and more, all without any scriptural backing.  You are once again avoiding a request to back your statements up with scripture, side stepping your responsibility.

 

Don't try to twist this around because people have been showing you through scripture that your theology is incorrect already. 

 

Okay, let us not lose reality and facts here. Please show me in the scripture where one can roll over the floor, make strange sounds, behave erratically, wait for the gifts with drum beatings, etc., by quoting Scripture. Let them show again by the Scripture that what was the advice for Corinthian people is applicable to mature believing Christians all over the world.

 

Wow ... where did this come from??? I agree, let's not loose reality. The reality of this conversation is that you don't supply scripture when asked. The proof is your reply.

 

That is applicable to you also, right? Instead of giving Scripture for the behavior of people in Pentecostal churches, you are asking something from my side? Your silence and lack of answer prove my point.

 

 

 

I am new and saw this topic.....I haven't the time right this minute to read all of the entries as it is past my bedtime tonight....but speaking personally, my life changed dramatically when I was baptized into the Holy Spirit....It took me many years to receive though....

It is not supported by the Scripture if someone claims that he is going to baptize you with the Holy Spirit. Only Jesus can baptize like that!(Matthew 3:11) It is your psychology that makes you feel better that is all!

 

Acts 8:18-19

And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”

Once again, wrong. Everything comes from God, this I agree with. There are also places where the Holy Spirit just fell on them. It is not anyone's "psychology", but God.

 

In Acts when the Holy Spirit fell on some people, they spoke in known tongue for all to see and hear. That is not what is observed today! People claim they are going to give baptism of the Holy Spirit! It may be followed by speaking in unknown tongue that no one understands! I presume that was what Faithful had experienced!

[OneLight]

You asked ... "You don't want the best Paul desires for you?" and I asked how you could ever ask such a question. Your above does not answer the question, but shifts the conversation back to what you are trying to teach.

 

Such a question is needed because it contains the answer. Unfortunately, you are trying to skip answering that!

I want what Christ has for me, and if that happens to go against what you believe Paul was saying, the issue is yours, not mine. Paul would also agree, what Christ has is what He wants also.

Be assured that I don't skip questions unless they are designed to redirect the issues at hand, as this one was. You accused me of not wanting what was best and I asked you to show me where I said that. That is when you decided to ask this question instead of answering my question to you about your accusation. Speck/plank.

 

 

 

 

As for your explanation against tongues, you cannot say this in honesty. Nobody knows if a word in a tongue would be a message of prophesy or not. I have heard an interpretation that not only encourages, but speaks of the future at the same time.

 

I am nearly concerned because, with a wrong notion, less learned people will be behaving as if they have a hallow over their head since they mumble unknown tongue! Greater the souind and physical activity, greater is their  claim that their unseen hallows are thicker and wider!

Your fear of what may be is turning you against what is from God. Fear is not of God, so you should check where that is all coming from.

Satan will do his best to mimic God in order to deceive the young and weak, along with the unbeliever. This is where your fear is coming from. Satan is turning you against the gifts of speaking in tongues and interpretations because you do know what is being said; therefore, planting the seed of doubt in your mind and heart. Scripture tells us this is a gift from God. Who are you going to listen to?

 

 

Paul never mentioned that when he spoke in tongues he was praying. This is what you are adding to scripture, which is false. In fact, there is no mention of Paul praying in tongues from any of his writings. Do a scripture search on "pray tongues" and you will see that it is not there.

 

How about 1 Corinthians 14:14?

You are correct, Paul did mention once that if he prays in tongues, his spirit prays, but his understanding is unfruitful. What is wrong with that? If the Holy Spirit prays for me, I will trust Him with my life, so what if I don't know what He is saying. God will work it out and He will show me His love by answering what was being prayed about.

 

 

 

I have also read many things against speaking in tongues from sites that are not trustworthy, but only feed in the hate of scripture. In fact, they were from atheist sites. Is this where you found this testimony from a German lady too? You are peddling fear now to back your disbelief in tongues?

 

Please remember, I am of speaking of problem with unknown tongues. And I am staunch believer in Jesus from past 36 years.

 

I am still waiting for you to provide scripture about unknown tongues. I know there are tongues of other worldly languages and tongues of angles, but I have never heard about an unknown tongue. What tongue is this that God does not know?

 

 

 

Agent's agent? What does that mean?

 

A prophet is an agent of God to transmit the will and word of God. It is done using one person. The person who was led by the Spirit to speak up will do all by himself! This is what Paul prefers.

I understand how the gift works, but what do you mean by an agents agent?

 

 

Again I ask, if a person uses the gift of miracles, is it the man who is doing the miracles or is it God working through the man? How about healing? Can man heal or does God work through the person? Your theology would have one believe that man, once they are given the gift, can operate the gift as they see fit. Scripture does not claim that. In fact, scripture does not state that a gift, once given, remains. The Holy Spirit gives gifts as He see fit, not as man sees fit. Your theology is wrong and false teaching.

 

Not again with regard to other gifts!

All gifts are from God, so yes, I ask again. You dismiss one part of Gods gift, you dismiss them all. If your faith lacks accepting all of His will, what good is 90% then. Is there anything else in scripture you would like to throw out?

 

Please stop play the circle game. I already have shown you that Paul said he wished everyone spoke in tongues and that he spoke in tongues more than them.

No piece-wise quoting of a verse please. He ends with recommending prophesying. He never spoke in tongues in churches.

What is that suppose to mean? That scripture is not good enough for you if it clearly states something you don't agree with? If you can't accept what Paul said, that is a problem between you and God, not mine. You asked for scripture, I gave it to you.

[OneLight]

Answer me this, do you do everything the Holy Spirit tells you to do ... everything? Nobody does or they would be perfect, and there is only one perfect man, and that was Jesus Christ. But, I have already gone over this with you before. Why ask again?

 

We ought to do what the Holy Spirit asks us to do. Going against that would mean quenching or griveing the Spirit.

Yes, this is true, but you still did not answer the question. Do you do everything the Holy Spirit has asked you to do?

The letter was written to straighten out how the church operates. All of Gods words are to instruct all who belong to Him. Only man puts limits on God, as you do to tongues. You say that you believe in the other gifts. Tongues is among the gifts clearly stated in scripture, and scripture does not say they cease for any church.

 

 

This is a blanket statement mixing up both known and unknown tongues.

No it is not. It is the truth about why Paul wrote to the Corinthians, to instruct them.

It is for you to show scripture that there are known and unknown tongues. Over and over you have been asked to do so, but you continue to use this phrase without scriptural backing while pointing fingers at those who are trying to help you see what is in scripture and what is not in scripture.

 

You are referring to the Berans who took what Paul preached and searched scripture to see if what he was saying was true or not. Paul was not prophesying.

 

Are you saying Paul was all the time speaking in unknown tongue?

Where do you get that from what I asked? Read Acts 17, where it says in verse 11 "These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so."

[OneLight]

If tongues were wrong, he would not speak in tongues nor encourage others to do so. Since he does speak in tongues, then they right right.

 

Prayer in an unknown tongue may edify a person personally. Why I should bother about that when done privately?

Tongues is more than just a prayer language. When one gives a tongue in Church and is interpreted, what is being interrelated is not a prayer, but a message from God

[OneLight]

Okay, let us not lose reality and facts here. Please show me in the scripture where one can roll over the floor, make strange sounds, behave erratically, wait for the gifts with drum beatings, etc., by quoting Scripture. Let them show again by the Scripture that what was the advice for Corinthian people is applicable to mature believing Christians all over the world.

Wow ... where did this come from??? I agree, let's not loose reality. The reality of this conversation is that you don't supply scripture when asked. The proof is your reply.

That is applicable to you also, right? Instead of giving Scripture for the behavior of people in Pentecostal churches, you are asking something from my side? Your silence and lack of answer prove my point.

No, actions like that are not how the church operates. Tell me, what have I ever said that would indicate this is acceptable?

What surprised me is how you went way out in left field to ignore being approached about not posting scripture, but trying to turn you refusal to do so back on us. I really have a hard time with misdirected statements like the ones you have been posting.

BTW, I have a life and a family. I enjoyed a beautiful afternoon hiking in the woods, watching wildlife. I have given you more attention in the past few days than I have my own family trying to help you get over the false teaching you have a death grip on. Lighten up on your accusations.

[OneLight]

I am new and saw this topic.....I haven't the time right this minute to read all of the entries as it is past my bedtime tonight....but speaking personally, my life changed dramatically when I was baptized into the Holy Spirit....It took me many years to receive though....

It is not supported by the Scripture if someone claims that he is going to baptize you with the Holy Spirit. Only Jesus can baptize like that!(Matthew 3:11) It is your psychology that makes you feel better that is all!

Acts 8:18-19

And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”

Once again, wrong. Everything comes from God, this I agree with. There are also places where the Holy Spirit just fell on them. It is not anyone's "psychology", but God.

In Acts when the Holy Spirit fell on some people, they spoke in known tongue for all to see and hear. That is not what is observed today! People claim they are going to give baptism of the Holy Spirit! It may be followed by speaking in unknown tongue that no one understands! I presume that was what Faithful had experienced!

I'll wait and see what actually happened in Faithful's experience and not assume I know.

How many churches have you been to where you personally witnessed "roll over the floor, make strange sounds, behave erratically, wait for the gifts with drum beatings, etc."?

[Knowingtruth]

 

 

 

The letter was written to straighten out how the church operates. All of Gods words are to instruct all who belong to Him. Only man puts limits on God, as you do to tongues. You say that you believe in the other gifts. Tongues is among the gifts clearly stated in scripture, and scripture does not say they cease for any church.

 

This is a blanket statement mixing up both known and unknown tongues.

 

Where does the Bible make the distinction between known and uknown tongues?

 

God bless,

GE

 

A good question!

 

It does need elaboration.  I will explain my insight and also that is shared by Pentecostal people:

 

The normal meaning of tongue is language or just an inside part of a mouth. However, it acquired spiritual significance on Pentecost day(Acts 2:3). 'Cloven tongues as of fire' appeared on believers to proclaim the power of the Holy Spirit coming down as promised by Jesus as a powerful sign to unbelievers. Not only that it was followed by believers speaking in an foreign language unknown to them but understood by unbelievers present there. This happening was due to the utterances prompted by the Holy Spirit. Therefore, whenever a person is prompted by the Holy Spirit, he will speak an existing foreign language unknown to him but understood by another present there. In short this is called 'known tongue'. This required no interpretation. It was meant as a public message.

 

My guess is that notorious people in Corinth started imitating this in their own way causing disorder and confusion. To stop this Paul tactfully brought in a concept of having interpretation for public understanding. So what was happening at Corinth was people speaking with their spirits in a language unknown to them as well with people present there. This is understood as an 'unknown tongue' since it will remain unknown if nobody interpreted it! Neverthess, Paul pointed out this unknown tongue may edify a person; nevertheless, the mind will remain fruitless when being done. Paul also cautioned that the spirits of the prophets will be under the control of prophets.(1 Corinthians 14:32)

 

Unforunately, superficial understanding of the Scripture has led to all kinds of concocted beliefs that do not differentiate the two!

Edited August 27, 2013 by Knowingtruth

[Knowingtruth]

 

 

 

 

Scriptural proof.  Show it to me.  You keep saying this and that.  Give me the proof.  Something that is beyond your own personal opinion.  Because you don't know the Bible, and you don't know Church History.

 

Let us go by what you say. Please give Scripture proof to disprove what I am saying.

 

 

Scriptural proof that a lot of what you have said has been giving on multiple occasions. Yet you still equate your personal opinion with how Christians should conduct themselves in relation to tongues and the Holy Spirit. Why is that? 

 

God bless,

GE

 

What I am pointing out cannot be found in the Bible that got compiled and accepted as complete by men. Disorderly behavior and creating confusion are not the signs of a Spirit filled person! Corinthian bad conditions ware localized, and there is no need work on that condition or bring it back just because it is found in the Scripture! If so, cine charecters and circus artists qualify for that condition!

Edited August 27, 2013 by Knowingtruth

[Knowingtruth]

 

In Acts when the Holy Spirit fell on some people, they spoke in known tongue for all to see and hear. That is not what is observed today! People claim they are going to give baptism of the Holy Spirit! It may be followed by speaking in unknown tongue that no one understands! I presume that was what Faithful had experienced!

 

 

 

 

I see that you still have not posted one single scripture to prove what you repeat over and over.  Why is that?

 

90% of your personal opinion is contradicted by NT scripture.  Is that why you never post scripture along with your opinions?

 

Have you any Scripture that says these Corinthian conditions are all found in other churches?

[Knowingtruth]

I want what Christ has for me, and if that happens to go against what you believe Paul was saying, the issue is yours, not mine.

 

I agree with this partly. But why do I see people toiling to get the lower-end gifts instead of cultivating the fruit? Pentecostal people offer a crash course and all kinds of advices to speak in unknown tongue!

 

Paul would also agree, what Christ has is what He wants also

 

Paul claimed to have something that Jesus did not have, that is, speaking in unknown tongue!

Be assured that I don't skip questions unless they are designed to redirect the issues at hand, as this one was. You accused me of not wanting what was best and I asked you to show me where I said that. That is when you decided to ask this question instead of answering my question to you about your accusation. Speck/plank.

 

Sorry, that can happen. Please be patient enough to reply again if the question is repeated. That is what I have been doing all the time here.