Is listening to secular music wrong?

[Purple Chris]

Just jumping in here...haven't read all 16+ pages...sorry.

Right up front let me state that I do believe that there are good and bad songs out there in every genre. As a musician myself, I have pretty selective and particular taste. As a Christian, the filter strains out even more. But I do not condemn any particular style of music as I don't see any Scripture (clear or hidden) that instructs me to do so.

Lots of things, music included, can have impacts on people that may be sinful. As a matter of fact, just about everything can...because just about everything involves people in some way. And people are all strugglers with sin. Some struggling to stop sinning, some struggling to sin more and some barely aware of the struggle going on in them. So potentially everything can be tainted...TV, movies, newspapers, talk show radio, school, the work place, neighbors, friends, preachers...you get the idea. So obviously we must be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.

I won't bother to state what many have already but will ask a few questions...

What exactly determines whether a song is "okay" to listen to or not? And I'm looking for a "complete checklist" style of answer, if that makes sense, not just this style or that instrument, but exact list. For example:

What instruments are godly, which are ungodly?

Which tempos, melodies, harmonies, etc... are godly, which are ungodly?

What are the lyrical requirements for a song to be acceptable to listen to or not?

Anything else that would be appropriate to a correct understanding.

Please use Scripture in designing this list so that all can agree what the Bible is clearly saying about musical styles, instrumentation, tempo, key changes, and the like. Please no blanket statements like "All country music is bad cuz if ya play it backwards ya git yer wife back, yer house back, yer truck back and yer dog back...so it must be evil!" Please no links, just verses that address the specific questions pertaining to music and it's construction. And please no quotes from man as we can find quotes to support anything we want. Quotes that people make reveal what's truly in their hearts, but it doesn't always equate to teaching biblical truth.

One of links posted had this to say: "Since rock and roll music is not found in the scriptures, from whence we derive all that is pleasing to God (2 Timothy 3:16-17), it MUST be a part of this world." Then so must be cars, phones, skyscrapers, electricity, flush toilets, most modern sports, children's play sets, airplanes, etc...etc... That's just a silly statement to make. Please no remarks like that. And please no rehashing of past posts, no need for that...just Scripture that address the questions.

I do agree that much of "Christian" music leaves me wanting...some from a musicians perspective, some from a Christian perspective. To be sure there is plenty of music that we can find that is not at all god honoring, some that is clearly opposed to God.

Just some thoughts and questions...

PC[/color=purple]

mumbles to himself..."okay, how do you change the font color...trying things, not working."[/color=purple]

Edited December 4, 2004 by Purple Chris

[Sola Scriptora]

Tess:

You are an expert at chiding others on HOW they should post, and as it was pointed out to you, you are hypocritical. Nothing you posted to me about what I said was true. Zilch. Nada. Anyone can see that by simp[ly reading what I said. If I actually did do what you said, that would be one thing, but the fact that you simply LIE about everything I said is the far more serious,. and typical issue. Those from your persuasion have no rules to follow, after all, was not Rock music said to be the music of no rules. Why yes it was. And so, those who defend it also have no common rules of courtesy and debate that they follow. They simply DEMAND that OTHERS follow good rules towards THEM. Well I'm sorry, but I won't play the little game you and Super Jew desire, like I told you before.

In conclusion to you, it is obvious:

It doesn't matter HOW someone posts. If you don't like their viewpoint, you attack them personally, as you have me numereous times. How people speak is never the issue with people like you. You could care less. One of your idols has been touched, and you are trying to rend us to pieces, that's all.

Age IS AN ISSUE, when it becomes apparent that those speaking are quite as juvenile as their age indicates. Don't compare yourselves to Jesus at 12, Timothy or any other young man or woman who actually did something great and mature for God!

To Super Jew: Here is some logic for you:

Where does the Bible say smoking is wrong?

Watching porno is wrong?

Snorting cocaine is wrong?

Injecting heroine is wrong?

Simple questions. Are these behaviors wrong Scripturally? If so, prove it.

[Kabowd]

I can't deal with this anymore. This shouldn't be a place that causes a person to hurt so much. If this is how "mature believers" treat eachother I don't want any part of it.

[Catsmeow]

{{{{HUGS TESS}}}} Sweetie, I love you.

Don't you let it get ya down, hon....don't you dare. You light up my life...don't you for get that!!!

Super Jew: You relay that to her, will you?

[apothanein kerdos]

Sola ~

You say all Tess does is attack people...yet that is all you have done this entire thread. So please, don't be a hypocrite.

Age IS AN ISSUE, when it becomes apparent that those speaking are quite as juvenile as their age indicates. Don't compare yourselves to Jesus at 12, Timothy or any other young man or woman who actually did something great and mature for God!

How though? I clearly showed you through biblical text that God calls and uses those that are young. Now you say that we cannot compare ourselves to these biblical characters. Why? They were human (with the exception of Jesus) and had their faults as well as we do. Likewise the same Spirit that guided them guides us. Thus I fail to see how you can see any logic or scriptural support for age being an issue. Is age an issue because the Bible makes it an issue, or is age an issue because at the moment it's the only arguement you can fall back on?

Where does the Bible say smoking is wrong?

It doesn't. I don't believe smoking is a sin. It's not wise and is bringing death upon yourself, but it certainly is a sin. Any scripture used to interpret it as a sin would thus have to be applied to eating fast food, drinking pop, and a plethora of our other bad habits.

Watching porno is wrong?

Well of course it is. Jesus stated that to lust after a women in your heart is to commit adultry. Pornography is made for the simple use of lust and acting upon that lust.

Snorting cocaine is wrong?

Injecting heroine is wrong?

Absolutely. The Government has outlawed these drugs. Thus by doing them you are violating the law of the land which is a sin according to the Bible.

Now what you will do in your next post is try and say, "Well then, the Bible never says a certain style of music is wrong but it surely implies it." However, this is not the case. The way you will construct your arguement is you will state that Rock music is evil and of this world, we are to be seperate from this world, ergo Rock music of any form is evil. The problem with this (as Chris pointed out) is that we then must seclude ourselves from many things. If something being of the world cannot be used to God's glory then we are in trouble. Anytime we drive a car, watch TV, get on the internet, wear clothing, or any ammount of other things, we are thus becomming like the world. You say we should not participate in the world, yet any time you go grocery shopping, pump gas, or pay your bills you are giving your money to worldly organizations that in turn give their money to wordly organizations. Some of them directly contribute to abortion causes, homosexual causes, and a plethora of other causes that we wouldn't agree with at all (and likewise shouldn't). Yet I am merely pointing out that if you are to be consistent in your belief of "called out and seperate" then you must remove yourself from all of these other things as well. So is rock music (just the sound) inherently evil because it was created within the world? I'd have to advocate that it isn't. God allows evil things to occur and then will use it for His glory. So even if we believe that the sound is inherently evil, this still does not pose a problem for the Bible believing Christian. Likewise we see that Paul dictates in 1 Corinthians and in Romans that we have a certain liberty under Christ and that meat sacrificed to idols is not evil thus the Chrisitan has the liberty to eat it. Music is the same way. Music in an acousitc sense of the word does nothing but strike up emotion. This is why classical music is so effective. However, it strikes up different emotions to each person's ears. What may be a sad tune to one might be an inspirational tune to another. Thus there is no solid or concrete emotional attachment behind the music. Thus while rock music might sound evil to one (just the music) it might relate well and strike up a positive emotion inside of another. Music only gains its goodness or evilness when lyrics are added to it. A book is the same way. A book is nothing more than a method or a way to convey a message. Without works it is but a collection of blank pages. Even though some books have evil intents behind them, this does not mean all books are evil. In fact, certain genre's of writing are anymore nothing but evil. Fiction in today's world has many evil books...does this mean that all fiction books, Christian and non-christian alike are evil? Of course not. Why? Because books stand alone. A book is not and cannot be evil until words are added to the page and the message becomes clear. Music is exactly the same way. Just because certain songs within a genre are evil doesn't make everything within that genre evil. If it did then Southern Gospel would be equally evil seeing as how many secular artist in the 1950's started out using Southern Gospel with secular lyrics. Thus it is not the genre or sound that is evil, but the words.

At this point you will ask how any Christian rock balland supports Christ through lyrics. You might go so far as to bring forth some evidence by posting the lyrics and saying they do not mention Jesus Christ or God. This of course is faulty reasoning. By this reasoning the any chapter within the Bible and the entire book of Esther should be removed. Esther doesn't mention God's name or even come close to doing such a thing. Thus if a song not actually saying God's name makes it a sin to listen to, then likewise it would be a sin to read the book of Esther.

Now Sola Scripura (notice the "u"), I ask that you stop attacking Tessie and myself and actually get onto the issues. Respond to what I have written not out of spite, not sarcastically, but as an equal, because in Christ that is what we are. So I now ask you which has committed the greater sin; the one who has listened to rock music, or the one who has elevated himself above his brethren simply because he has lived on this earth longer?

[Catsmeow]

Dearest and noble brethren:

Clearly, I lack wisdom compared to my most learned brethren herein.  I am speaking among men who are well knowledgeable of men who are well read of Holy Writ.  Forgive me for my lack of understanding, sirs.

I was thinking, much as a young child would ponder...this odd verse of scripture I found in 1 Cor 13.

2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so that I can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 And if I donate all my goods to feed the poor, and if I give my body to be burned, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

I'm but a simpleton lacking in great wisdom and knowledge but is it possible that the Lord regards the "motive" of the heart in which one sings, as if unto the Lord?

Or the motive in which one prays, as if unto the Lord?

Or the deeds performed for the good of others, as if unto the Lord?

Naturally, only HE alone can know the very mind and soul of a man. Hence, when he sings, praises, quotes scripture, proclaims revelation, prophesies or performs deeds of good, would not God know the motive of the man?

Your Humble Servant,  Cats

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dear Larryt:

Why did you not respond to my post? It was utterly ignored, as if "invisible".

Did I not humble myself enough?

Cats

[apothanein kerdos]

{{{{HUGS TESS}}}}     Sweetie, I love you.

Don't you let it get ya down, hon....don't you dare. You light up my life...don't you for get that!!!

Super Jew: You relay that to her, will you?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes ma'am I will.

[Jon The Jew]

You responded as if I was attacking you personally when I wasn't. Prejudice means to prejudge, to have an opinion before hearing the evidence.

Because...there is none. If the Bible flat said "ROCK MUSIC IS WRONG!" then maybe we'd have something.

If you don't want to live a godly, holy life don't worry, you are in no danger, you won't. Two traits of rock music are rebellion and anger. I wonder who is portraying these traits most accurately.

Well...let's check and see where the ad hominems are coming from.

You my brother I feel are to proudful you have an intelect but use it for the glory of God not

Super Jew, all of about 21 years old or so, thinks he knows everything. He has

"studied" this issue for a whopping FOUR years. And of course, unbiasedly, we are to believe??? Well some here have"studied" this issue for over TWENTY YEARS, and have also read and learned from men who have walked with the Lord for FIFTY YEARS, and the conclusions are obvious to the honest seeker of truth. Christian Rock, for the most part, is nothing but compromise, worldliness and rebellion. It is exactly the same as the secular counterpart.

Now watch the birdie. Here is someone who keeps asking foolish questions about "proof" Christian rock is wrong, yet he makes these UNSCRIPTURAL pontifications.

George edited personal attack toward Super Jew. Remember Jesus said -- By your love, men shall know that you are my [Jesus'] disciples! Let's not forget it!

Great advice from someone who is spewing vile ad hominems.

You are an expert at chiding others on HOW they should post, and as it was pointed out to you, you are hypocritical. Nothing you posted to me about what I said was true. Zilch. Nada. Anyone can see that by simp[ly reading what I said. If I actually did do what you said, that would be one thing, but the fact that you simply LIE about everything I said is the far more serious,. and typical issue. Those from your persuasion have no rules to follow, after all, was not Rock music said to be the music of no rules. Why yes it was. And so, those who defend it also have no common rules of courtesy and debate that they follow. They simply DEMAND that OTHERS follow good rules towards THEM. Well I'm sorry, but I won't play the little game you and Super Jew desire, like I told you before.

So...we can conclude that Joel or I have said you guys are sinning, rebellious, avoiding God's Word (or adding to it, rather). We have called you legalistic, I'll give that to you. We are being knocked down for age, speculations are arising, we're being called liars, people are getting hurt....and for what? So you can prove to us how rebellious we are? While I'm on this post from Sola; if you have studied so much and you're just so much smarter than us...why don't you just shut us up with your superior opinion on the issue? All I'm getting from you is "I'm right because I've studied more".

Age IS AN ISSUE, when it becomes apparent that those speaking are quite as juvenile as their age indicates. Don't compare yourselves to Jesus at 12, Timothy or any other young man or woman who actually did something great and mature for God!

Why? Is it not possible God still uses young people? People did feel the same about Timothy, hence Paul encouraging Timothy in 1 Timothy 4:12.

Where does the Bible say smoking is wrong?

Watching porno is wrong?

Snorting cocaine is wrong?

Injecting heroine is wrong?

The concept is wrong. All except porno are covered by treating your body as a Holy Temple. But this also includes being a glutton. Porno is wrong when lustful thoughts acompany it, which is near impossible. Jesus says if you lust in your heart after someone, then you've committed adultery.

Now, that wasn't hard. However, the text everyone keeps bringing up quanifies that the heart must be right. Spiritual song cannot imply a physical style of music. In John chapter 3, Jesus made the distinction between flesh and Spiritual. He seperated them as two different things. Spiritual was not meant is a genre, but as an inclination of what they should be. He didn't say "You must use the name 'Jesus' 4 times for it to be considered Christian". He said it has to be Spiritual, that is, Spiritual in meaning and in heart. "We Were Meant to Live" is a good example of this. It does not mention God, but it is implying that the things of this earth are not what we are here for. Which is completely Biblical.

Now, if it is good in morals, with Spiritual undertones (at least), why is it wrong for me to listen to it? If you say "because the Bible says so" don't post a Scripture or an article until you challenge what I said above.

[George]

Sometimes you lose when you TRY to win a debate, and sometimes you win when you agree to disagree. Remember that PRIDE is reason for all contention! Remember that Jesus is the whole reason we are here! And right now, I'm not seeing the love of the brethren in this thread.

Your brother in Christ with much agape love,

George

[WayneB]

Silly silly arguements... and so needless.

James chapter 3

8 But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison.

9 With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God;

10 from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be this way.

I wonder if people behave this way and say these things because they think that they won't be held accountable for their words since they are typed rather than spoken. If we believe that, we are mistaken.

Be Blessed saints,

Wayne

CLOSED for your protection saints.