Evangelical Universalism - True or False Doctrine?

[Floatingaxe]

Still---no one gets a reprieve from the LOF. Whom God condemns is condemned forever, banished from the presence of God for eternity. The Kingdom of God shall reign in the universe without any further taint of evil, for sin and evil and death will be wiped away.

[Elhanan]

There is only one time when all the nations will be gathered for judgment, all who has ever lived will stand before God, and this is at the Great White Throne Judgment in Revelation 20. Matthew 25 points to this time and is not a different Judgment when Jesus sit on the throne to judge all nations.

Remember that Matthew 25 are parables, telling a story of what is to come. If Jesus was to judge all at His return, there would be nobody left to live in the Millennium and nobody to stand against Him when satan is released after 1000 years. Scripture tells us of only one Judgment of such magnitude where everyone will be judged, and that is after the 1000 year reign and the final battle with satan. Only after this judgment will the New Heaven and the New Earth be created.

As for any second chance, there is none and that has been clearly stated by many. The only time anything is tested by fire is when our works are tested to see if they stand or not.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15

Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

"As through fire" means that the works we preform that are not His works will not stand and be burnt, for they cannot enter His kingdom with us, so through this fire, we are made complete in Him where our bad works are no more, only His works done through us will stand.

Nowhere is scripture does it say that we are given a second chance by passing through the Lake of Fire. It has been asked many times that this teaching be backed with scripture and it has not. After 9 pages of discussion, if it were a true scriptural teaching, scripture would of been given. I believe that the lack of scriptural proof is clear enough to note that this is false teaching.

In post #153 I articulated in point fashion how the judgment of the nations in Matt 25 differs from the GWT judgment in Revelation.  Can you offer your counterpoint instead of making a generalized claim that they are the same event?

Moreover are you saying that those who inhabit the earth during the millennial reign of Christ on the earth are not the sheep referred to in Matt 25?  Lastly, I believe ninhao and I have disputed the meaning of the "kings of the earth" entering the gates of the New Jerusalem in Rev 21:24 so refer to those previous posts for my point about evidence for second chances in the LOF.

[Floatingaxe]

 

There is only one time when all the nations will be gathered for judgment, all who has ever lived will stand before God, and this is at the Great White Throne Judgment in Revelation 20. Matthew 25 points to this time and is not a different Judgment when Jesus sit on the throne to judge all nations.

Remember that Matthew 25 are parables, telling a story of what is to come. If Jesus was to judge all at His return, there would be nobody left to live in the Millennium and nobody to stand against Him when satan is released after 1000 years. Scripture tells us of only one Judgment of such magnitude where everyone will be judged, and that is after the 1000 year reign and the final battle with satan. Only after this judgment will the New Heaven and the New Earth be created.

As for any second chance, there is none and that has been clearly stated by many. The only time anything is tested by fire is when our works are tested to see if they stand or not.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15

Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

"As through fire" means that the works we preform that are not His works will not stand and be burnt, for they cannot enter His kingdom with us, so through this fire, we are made complete in Him where our bad works are no more, only His works done through us will stand.

Nowhere is scripture does it say that we are given a second chance by passing through the Lake of Fire. It has been asked many times that this teaching be backed with scripture and it has not. After 9 pages of discussion, if it were a true scriptural teaching, scripture would of been given. I believe that the lack of scriptural proof is clear enough to note that this is false teaching.

In post #153 I articulated in point fashion how the judgment of the nations in Matt 25 differs from the GWT judgment in Revelation.  Can you offer your counterpoint instead of making a generalized claim that they are the same event?

Moreover are you saying that those who inhabit the earth during the millennial reign of Christ on the earth are not the sheep referred to in Matt 25?  Lastly, I believe ninhao and I have disputed the meaning of the "kings of the earth" entering the gates of the New Jerusalem in Rev 21:24 so refer to those previous posts for my point about evidence for second chances in the LOF.

 

 

Why do you obfuscate the issue by adding the sheep and goats judgment? There is no correlation to the issue that you claim that there is a way out of condemnation. God doesn't give second chances when he judges. Can you imagine a fine judge on earth giving a convicted mass murderer a second chance? Well, God will not give anyone a pass who is considered unrighteous by virtue of rejecting the salvation that Jesus offers.

[OneLight]

 

There is only one time when all the nations will be gathered for judgment, all who has ever lived will stand before God, and this is at the Great White Throne Judgment in Revelation 20. Matthew 25 points to this time and is not a different Judgment when Jesus sit on the throne to judge all nations.

Remember that Matthew 25 are parables, telling a story of what is to come. If Jesus was to judge all at His return, there would be nobody left to live in the Millennium and nobody to stand against Him when satan is released after 1000 years. Scripture tells us of only one Judgment of such magnitude where everyone will be judged, and that is after the 1000 year reign and the final battle with satan. Only after this judgment will the New Heaven and the New Earth be created.

As for any second chance, there is none and that has been clearly stated by many. The only time anything is tested by fire is when our works are tested to see if they stand or not.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15

Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

"As through fire" means that the works we preform that are not His works will not stand and be burnt, for they cannot enter His kingdom with us, so through this fire, we are made complete in Him where our bad works are no more, only His works done through us will stand.

Nowhere is scripture does it say that we are given a second chance by passing through the Lake of Fire. It has been asked many times that this teaching be backed with scripture and it has not. After 9 pages of discussion, if it were a true scriptural teaching, scripture would of been given. I believe that the lack of scriptural proof is clear enough to note that this is false teaching.

In post #153 I articulated in point fashion how the judgment of the nations in Matt 25 differs from the GWT judgment in Revelation.  Can you offer your counterpoint instead of making a generalized claim that they are the same event?

Moreover are you saying that those who inhabit the earth during the millennial reign of Christ on the earth are not the sheep referred to in Matt 25?  Lastly, I believe ninhao and I have disputed the meaning of the "kings of the earth" entering the gates of the New Jerusalem in Rev 21:24 so refer to those previous posts for my point about evidence for second chances in the LOF.

 

 

You still need to divide scripture properly and here is why I say this.

First, let's discuss your theory between The Judgment of the Nations (sheep and goat parable)and the Great White Throne Judgment.

 

Different Time: The judgment of the nations occurs at the second coming of Christ (Matthew 5:31); the great white throne judgment occurs following the millennial kingdom (Revelation 20:11-12).

Incorrect, there is only one Judgment for sinners and that is at the Great White Throne Judgment. The parable in Matthew 25 points to this Judgment time and describes in story form what will take place at the Judgment Seat of Christ, known as the Great White Throne Judgment. A parable is not the means Theology is built upon, though it does have truth within the parable. A parable is a story, not facts, giving a story like description of what will take place, where Revelation 20 is prophecy.

I made a statement in my last post that I will now copy here. "Remember that Matthew 25 are parables, telling a story of what is to come. If Jesus was to judge all at His return, there would be nobody left to live in the Millennium and nobody to stand against Him when satan is released after 1000 years. Scripture tells us of only one Judgment of such magnitude where everyone will be judged, and that is after the 1000 year reign and the final battle with satan. Only after this judgment will the New Heaven and the New Earth be created."

Where do those who populate the millennium come from? Who are those who side3 with satan in the final battle after his release? According to your theory, there would be nobody left.

 

Different Scene: The judgment of the nations occurs on earth (Matthew 25:31); the great white throne judgment occurs at the great white throne (Revelation 20:11).

Nowhere in Matthew 25 does it say that the judgment is on earth. You are reading this into the parable.

 

Different Subjects: At the judgment of the nations, three groups of people are mentioned: the sheep, the goats, and the brothers (Matthew 25:32,40). The great white throne judgment involves the unsaved dead (Revelation 20:12).

The brethren Jesus speaks of are the same brethren He spoke of in Luke 8:20-21:

And it was told Him by some, who said, “Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, desiring to see You.” But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”

They are not a third group at all. Also, in Revelation 20:12, there is no mention of only the unsaved being judged. Scripture tells us that those who had died will stand before Jesus in this Judgment This is an error many have made, thinking that this is only for the unsaved.

 

Different Basis: The basis of judgment at the judgment of the nations is how Christ’s “brothers” were treated (Matthew 25:40); the basis of judgment at the great white throne is their works (Revelation 20:12).

Without discussing the timing, there is no difference between how you treat someone and works.

 

Different Result: The result of the judgment of the nations is twofold: the righteous enter into the kingdom; the unrighteous are cast into the lake of fire. The result of the great white throne judgment is that the wicked dead are cast into the lake of fire (the righteous are not mentioned).

In Revelation 20, all we read is that the dead will raise and stand before Jesus in Judgment. Nothing states that the dead are only those who are unsaved. After the rapture, those who live during the millennium do not have a 1000 year lifespan, they continue to live just as we had lived, their life span being the same. Since there is not other rapture mentioned for the saved who lived during this time, they too will stand in judgment, but their names will be found in the Book of Life. Only those who are not in the Book of Life are cast into the Lake of Fire.

 

Resurrection: No resurrection is mentioned in connection with the judgment of the nations. A resurrection does take place in connection with the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:13).

Again, you are making doctrine out of a parable. This is not how one makes doctrine since they are stories that explain some truth.

 

The goats are those who go into the lake of fire for an age of time. The sheep are those who go on to inhabit the earth also for an age of time - during the millennium age.

And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during. (YLT)

That is not how scripture says it. Matthew 25:46 Reads: And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”  You are adding your personal definition to the words everlasting and eternal, which is not what they mean in this context.

You have been shown how the words were used before in the proper context. Let me point you to what was posted.

 

The word eons, aion and aionas is found in the word study of G165. The simplest meaning is:

• for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
• the worlds, universe
• period of time, age

To dig even deeper, we find the following, from the Complete Word Study Dictionary for Greek

Age, referring to an age or time in contrast to kosmos (2889), referring to people or space. Denotes duration or continuance of time, but with great variety.

(1) Age, an indefinitely long period of time or lapse of time, perpetuity, ever, forever, eternity.

...(A) Spoken of times future in the following phrases

......(1) Eis ton aiona (eis [1591] into, unto; ton [3588] the; aion [165] age) forever, without end, to the remotest time; spoken of Christ; spoken of the blessedness of the righteous; of punishment of the wicked (Jude 1:13).

......(2) The phrase eis tous aionas, unto the ages, meaning ever, forever, to all eternity, spoken of God; of Christ.

......(3) The phrase eis tous aionas ton aionon, unto the ages of the ages being an intensive form meaning forever (2 Timothy 4:18; Hebrews 13:21; 1 Peter 4:11; Revelation 1:6, 18; 4:9, 19; 5:13; 7:12; 10:6; 11:15; 15:7; 19:3; 20:10; 22:5).

(2) Spoken of times past (which is not what 20:10 is speaking about, so I will not give the information for this meaning)

Since Revelation 20:10 is "eis tous sionas ton aionon", the meaning would be of 1A3 above.

G165 aionas, meaning age of the ages being an intensive form of forever and G166: aionios, meaning eternal, it is clear that 20:10 is speaking of forever eternal.

 

Aionios life as applied to the sheep cannot mean eternal life since obviously the millenial age only lasts for 1,000 years. Since aionios life cannot mean eternal life for the sheep then it does not stand to reason that it must automatically mean eternal damnation for the goats either.

That is why your theory cannot stand. Once judged, the judgment stand forever and this is done at the end of the millennium., not before it. The theory you are trying to teach has so many holes in it it is impossible to make any scriptural sense of it.

To show me that I am wrong, please tell me:

• Where it clearly tells us in scripture that we are given a second chance after death
• That those who are alive during the Millennium are only those sheep from Matthew 25:46.
• How the sheep whom you say populate the millennium, who are given eternal life, would ever turn from Christ and become satans army.

I will give you the chance to answer these questions, since the first has been ask many time and you neglect to answer it with scripture, but only with your understanding.

[Guest ninhao]

 

Elhanan, on 06 Oct 2013 - 04:32 AM, said:

 

I am not here to play games but unfortunately you like to play hide and seek when it comes to Matt 25:41 and somehow avoid answering my question I posed to you.. You stated my argument is a "fallacy" based upon your notion that no one enters the Lake of Fire until after the millennium. I'll re-quote your words to help jog your memory: "No one is sent to the LOF until after the Millennial Reign when satan is released, gathers followers, and is defeated/judged."  Instead of answering my question and addressing Jesus' command to the goats to depart into the fire which takes place before the millennium, you instead turn to Revelation for your argument and only quote from there when it's obvious that the text you quoted in Revelation takes place after the millennium. You have still failed to account for what happens to the goats before the white throne judgment. We know the sheep enter the millennium on the earth. The goats enter the lake of fire. But according to your view please explain what happens to the goats during the millennial kingdom if they are not in the lake of fire? I suppose they are just twiddling their thumbs just waiting for the 1,000 years to expire instead of obeying Christ's command to enter the fire. So how do you explain this?

 

 

 

 

The designation as goats occurs at the end of the tribulation period  They’re judged at the end of this period but aren’t sent to the LOF until after the 1000 years which is demonstrated by  Matthew 25 in parallel to Revelation 20/21. All non-believers receive the execution of the judgement at this time. ( aside from the beast and false prophet see below) Once again you’re attempting to use a hyper literal approach to scripture in the same way you do to misinterpret “all Israel”, reconciliation,  and preaching to the dead.

 

Mat 25:38-41  When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?  (39)  Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?  (40)  And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.  (41)  Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

 

The “departure “ into the LOF is after the GWT judgement. Assessments have been made concerning what these people did during the tribulation period but they aren’t sent to the LOF ( depart into ) until after the GWT. It’s no different than the assessment made on all people that isn’t executed until after the GWT judgement.

 

 

Rev 20:12  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

 

 

We can see the books contain what these people did during their lifetime but the judgement isn't executed until after the opening; the actions of the non-believers  had already condemned them.   

 

Joh_3:18  He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

 You’re putting the cart before the horse.

 

Also note when Jesus uses aionios to describe the fate of he sheep it is "inheriting the Kingdom".

 

Mat 25:34  Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

 

This inheritance of the Kingdom is eternal ( never ending ) and it's obvious  the juxtaposition of this against the fate of the goats means eternal also. ( never ending ).

 

 

In addition your claim that no one enters the LOF until after the millennium is demonstrably false as the beast and false prophet are sent there by Jesus after his victory at his second coming. "And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone. Rev 19:20.

You should really follow your own advice and not blatantly ignore scripture.

 

 

 

Ah yes you are correct that the beast and false prophet are thrown into the LOF prior to the Millennial Reign thank you for the correction. ( I have followed my advice  ) Of course; since you are pointing out the timeline given in Revelation 19 I assume you will also accept the timeline given in Revelation 20.

 

 

Rev 20:7  And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

 

Rev 20:10  And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

Rev 20:14-15  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.  (15)  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

 

Now I suggest you abandon this manipulation of the timeline given by Jesus. I’m still waiting on scripture showing anyone exiting the LOF and considering your hyper literal approach to interpretation I assume you have it ?

[Elhanan]

 

 

Elhanan, on 06 Oct 2013 - 04:32 AM, said:

 

I am not here to play games but unfortunately you like to play hide and seek when it comes to Matt 25:41 and somehow avoid answering my question I posed to you.. You stated my argument is a "fallacy" based upon your notion that no one enters the Lake of Fire until after the millennium. I'll re-quote your words to help jog your memory: "No one is sent to the LOF until after the Millennial Reign when satan is released, gathers followers, and is defeated/judged."  Instead of answering my question and addressing Jesus' command to the goats to depart into the fire which takes place before the millennium, you instead turn to Revelation for your argument and only quote from there when it's obvious that the text you quoted in Revelation takes place after the millennium. You have still failed to account for what happens to the goats before the white throne judgment. We know the sheep enter the millennium on the earth. The goats enter the lake of fire. But according to your view please explain what happens to the goats during the millennial kingdom if they are not in the lake of fire? I suppose they are just twiddling their thumbs just waiting for the 1,000 years to expire instead of obeying Christ's command to enter the fire. So how do you explain this?

 

 

 

 

The designation as goats occurs at the end of the tribulation period  They’re judged at the end of this period but aren’t sent to the LOF until after the 1000 years which is demonstrated by  Matthew 25 in parallel to Revelation 20/21. All non-believers receive the execution of the judgement at this time. ( aside from the beast and false prophet see below) Once again you’re attempting to use a hyper literal approach to scripture in the same way you do to misinterpret “all Israel”, reconciliation,  and preaching to the dead.

 

Mat 25:38-41  When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?  (39)  Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?  (40)  And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.  (41)  Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

 

The “departure “ into the LOF is after the GWT judgement. Assessments have been made concerning what these people did during the tribulation period but they aren’t sent to the LOF ( depart into ) until after the GWT. It’s no different than the assessment made on all people that isn’t executed until after the GWT judgement.

 

 

Rev 20:12  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

 

 

We can see the books contain what these people did during their lifetime but the judgement isn't executed until after the opening; the actions of the non-believers  had already condemned them.   

 

Joh_3:18  He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

 You’re putting the cart before the horse.

 

Also note when Jesus uses aionios to describe the fate of he sheep it is "inheriting the Kingdom".

 

Mat 25:34  Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

 

This inheritance of the Kingdom is eternal ( never ending ) and it's obvious  the juxtaposition of this against the fate of the goats means eternal also. ( never ending ).

 

 

In addition your claim that no one enters the LOF until after the millennium is demonstrably false as the beast and false prophet are sent there by Jesus after his victory at his second coming. "And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone. Rev 19:20.

You should really follow your own advice and not blatantly ignore scripture.

 

 

 

Ah yes you are correct that the beast and false prophet are thrown into the LOF prior to the Millennial Reign thank you for the correction. ( I have followed my advice  ) Of course; since you are pointing out the timeline given in Revelation 19 I assume you will also accept the timeline given in Revelation 20.

 

 

Rev 20:7  And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

 

Rev 20:10  And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

Rev 20:14-15  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.  (15)  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

 

Now I suggest you abandon this manipulation of the timeline given by Jesus. I’m still waiting on scripture showing anyone exiting the LOF and considering your hyper literal approach to interpretation I assume you have it ?

 

Your argument is so full of holes, I don't know where to start; I would characterize your interpretation of scripture as the non-literal approach.  I already showed you how the kings of the earth who are always depicted as God's enemies in Revelation and enter the gates of the New Jerusalem but you don't believe in the plain reading of scripture so I can't help your unbelief.  As for the goats - you claim they are judged at the end of the tribulation period - that point we agree on.  However, it then begs the question of what are the goats doing during the millenium? I have repeatedly asked you this question and you steadfastly refuse to answer.  The sheep who helped the brethren are judged at the end of the tribulation and they are rewarded by being allowed to inhabit the earth during the millenium.  The beast and the false prophet are also judged at the end of the tribulation and they are punished and thrown alive into the LOF. The goats are also judged at the end of the tribulation and also commanded to enter the LOF  (Matt 25:41) along with the beast and false prophet. So what you are claiming is that somehow an exception has to be made for the goats. The sheep and the beast and false prophet all obey God's commands to their rewards and punishments.  But in your view, somehow the goats thumb their noses at Christ's commands and get a 1,000 year reprieve from their punishment. If the sheep & the beast & false prophet have to obey Jesus' commands to them respectively, why do the goats get to disobey?  Moreover, tell me how justice is served when the sheep are rewarded for their service to the brethren by being allowed to populate the millenial kingdom - yet if the goats don't enter the LOF until after the 1,000 years as you claim, then in effect they receive the same reward as the sheep by remaining on the earth for 1,000 years.  In essence the sheep and goats effectively receive the same judgment during the millenium - that scenario clearly does not make sense.  Finally, your attempt to merge the events of Matt 25 with Rev 20/21 is wholly without merit. The judgment of the sheep/goats occurs after the tribulation. The GWT judgment occur after the millennium.  The sheep/goats are judged when they are still alive. The GWT judgment involves the judging of the ressurected dead only. Huge difference don't you think? - therefore I cannot concur with your view.

[Guest ninhao]

 

Elhanan

Your argument is so full of holes, I don't know where to start; I would characterize your interpretation of scripture as the non-literal approach.  I already showed you how the kings of the earth who are always depicted as God's enemies in Revelation and enter the gates of the New Jerusalem but you don't believe in the plain reading of scripture so I can't help your unbelief.

 

 

 

There are no non-believers in the new Earth and, as shown by Shiloh in post #102, the Kings in the new Earth are Saints and you are once again ignoring context.

 

 

 

 

  As for the goats - you claim they are judged at the end of the tribulation period - that point we agree on.  However, it then begs the question of what are the goats doing during the millenium? I have repeatedly asked you this question and you steadfastly refuse to answer. 

 

 

 

I thought I explained in the last post that the goats are not sentenced until after the Millennial reign. This means they’re in the same position as non-believers today awaiting execution of judgement. Some say these people are in the grave after death and some say they are in hell. They aren’t in the LOF until after execution of the judgement sentence.

 

 

 

 The sheep who helped the brethren are judged at the end of the tribulation and they are rewarded by being allowed to inhabit the earth during the millenium. 

 

 

 

The sheep not only inhabit the Earth during the Millennial Reign but they also inhabit the Earth forever if they persist in faith.

 

 

 

 The beast and the false prophet are also judged at the end of the tribulation and they are punished and thrown alive into the LOF. The goats are also judged at the end of the tribulation and also commanded to enter the LOF  (Matt 25:41) along with the beast and false prophet. So what you are claiming is that somehow an exception has to be made for the goats.

 

 

 

The beast and the false prophet are thrown into the LOF at the end of the tribulation period but the goats and the rest of the wicked do not receive the execution of judgement until after the GWT. We can see this progression

 

 

Rev 19:20  And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

 

There’s no mention of anyone aside from the beast and the false prophet here. Then we progress to revelation 20 which shows when the rest are judged and sentenced. We can also note the “remnant” ( those who follow the beast ) are slain but these are not cast into the LOF until after the second resurrection.  

 

 

Rev 19:21  And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

 

 

No mention of those who follow the beast being cast into the LOF yet.

 

 

Rev 20:10-15  And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.  (11)  And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.  (12)  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.  (13)  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.  (14)  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.  (15)  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

 

 

 Notice here satan is cast into the LOF where “the beast and the false prophet are “. There is no mention of the goats. Using your hyper literal approach to interpretation this means the goats aren’t there until after the books are opened and sentencing is executed.

 

 

 

 

The sheep and the beast and false prophet all obey God's commands to their rewards and punishments.  But in your view, somehow the goats thumb their noses at Christ's commands and get a 1,000 year reprieve from their punishment. If the sheep & the beast & false prophet have to obey Jesus' commands to them respectively, why do the goats get to disobey? 

 

 

 

This doesn’t make sense. When non-believers die today they’re either in the grave or in hell awaiting the execution of their sentence. During this time satan and many of his minions are freely roaming the Earth and may have access to Heaven. The goats are no different and the only ones stated that are thrown into the LOF at the end of the tribulation are the beast and the false prophet. What is your point ? The goats will enter the LOF at the same time all non-

believers will and Jesus states in Matthew 25:46 that this will be a never ending sentence by juxtaposing it against the eternal life for believers. Do you agree believers inherit eternal life ?

 

 

 

 Moreover, tell me how justice is served when the sheep are rewarded for their service to the brethren by being allowed to populate the millenial kingdom - yet if the goats don't enter the LOF until after the 1,000 years as you claim, then in effect they receive the same reward as the sheep by remaining on the earth for 1,000 years. 

 

 

 

As shown above the goats will be amongst those who follow the beast and are slain at the beginning of the Millennial Reign. Either way your logic is poor considering even today we have the wicked living amid the righteous. The eternal consequences are far more significant than life before the New Earth.  God allows the wicked to flourish and decide their own fate.

 

 

 

 In essence the sheep and goats effectively receive the same judgment during the millenium - that scenario clearly does not make sense.  Finally, your attempt to merge the events of Matt 25 with Rev 20/21 is wholly without merit. The judgment of the sheep/goats occurs after the tribulation. The GWT judgment occur after the millennium.  The sheep/goats are judged when they are still alive. The GWT judgment involves the judging of the ressurected dead only. Huge difference don't you think? - therefore I cannot concur with your view.

 

 

 

The judgement of the sheep and goats may take place at the end of the tribulation period but the execution of the sentence doesn’t happen until after the GWT. I’ve already shown how all people are judged at death but they don’t receive the execution until later as I stated in my last post.

 

 

The “departure “ into the LOF is after the GWT judgement. Assessments have been made concerning what these people did during the tribulation period but they aren’t sent to the LOF ( depart into ) until after the GWT. It’s no different than the assessment made on all people that isn’t executed until after the GWT judgement.

 

Rev 20:12  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

 

 

We can see the books contain what these people did during their lifetime but the judgement isn't executed until after the opening; the actions of the non-believers  had already condemned them.   

[OneLight]

Closed.  Universalism is  a false teaching, one that will not continue to be taught here.  This thread was started for a discussion, not a platform to teach.