Can you have faith without works?

[tsth]

If Abraham had not gone from Haran when the Lord commanded him to leave his country,people and family, would he have been found "faithful"? My how the story would have been different, had Abraham heard the Word of God but not believed in action?

Genesis 12:1 Now the Lord had said to Abram: "Get out of your country, From your family And from your father's house, To a land that I will show you.

Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

Abraham was strengthened in his faith, and gave glory to God, because Abraham was fully persuaded that God had power to do what He had promised. This is why it was credited to him as righteousness.

Abraham put his faith into action in a serious way. You do not really believe what you hear, if you do not accompany it with appropriate reaction, do you?

Genesis 22:18 In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice."

Genesis 26:4 And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."

What does our belief/faith look like? Do we hear God.........and obey/believe?

Hebrews 3/1 Cor. 10

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion." 16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Are we listening? Do we hear God and react to what we hear?

In His Love,

Suzanne

[apothanein kerdos]

I still think that is from a set paradigm. Abraham acted upon his faith. Faith, by all biblical definitions, is simply believing and trusting in a concept, teaching, theory, etc. Thus we cannot act unless we already have faith. Faith comes first and works come second. Works follow the act of faith but are not directly part of faith itself. One need only look at Matthew 7 to discover that works without faith actually equates hell. However faith without works (according to James and how the Greek word nekros is used metaphorically) is simply a faith without an impact. Think of it this way:

No one looks for love in the works of their spouse. A person must love another before they can act in love towards that person. Before a husband can become a husband and before he can even act upon his desires to please his "to be bride", he must first have an intellectual and emotional attatchment to her. From this his actions flow. If he does not treat her as though he loves her, then it is easily provable that he doesn't love her. Likewise if we are ever to prove to a lost and dying world that we are truly Christians then we must LIVE the faith that we have. Thus faith is not an action but a belief and a saving knowledge of Christ. The action of faith however, is an overflow of this belief.

[Khristeeanos]

James is speaking to those who have an intellectual claim to Christ yet have never had a heart change.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are you suggesting that James' epistle was written to the lost?

[Anne]

Dear IreneM

You said that you are home bound and hence cannot go out witnessing with your friends, thus you conclude that you have faith without works.

IreneM, I have read some of your threads, I would suggest that you have shown alot of faith through your threads, made people think about such things as you felt it necessary to.

I would put it to you, that your faith shines through your work here, you have witnessed to more people than you can imagine. Not every work that comes from faith is something you can hold in your hand, sister, you are doing the work that God has planned of you, more than you can imagine.

In response to Superjew, I do see what you are saying, and it seems all perfectly logical, but i'm putting my trust in the words that were given to us in the Holy Bible, and just expand a little bit on what Suzanne has already posted. Remember, the Bible is written so a child can understand it, let's not try to disect it and examine it under a microscope, let's accept it as it is, as it is written.

Study of the Epistle of James

Father Abrahams

[apothanein kerdos]

Are you suggesting that James' epistle was written to the lost?

Not all were. We must keep in mind that this was written to converted Jews who must have been elitist Jews prior to converstion. We notice that verse 14 and the verses about good works that follow are simply a continuation of chapter two. James is reminding them that in order to claim faith we must be able to prove it. In fact this is stressed in his hypothetical in verse 18. He differentiates between faith and works and thus proves that they are not one in the same. Works are an overflow of faith.

As for what I said about them being lost, that's can be contested and I have no problem with it. The over all message that many agree with though (and that cannot be proven wrong) is that James is seperating faith and works and not making them the same thing.

In response to Superjew, I do see what you are saying, and it seems all perfectly logical, but i'm putting my trust in the words that were given to us in the Holy Bible, and just expand a little bit on what Suzanne has already posted. Remember, the Bible is written so a child can understand it, let's not try to disect it and examine it under a microscope, let's accept it as it is, as it is written.

Nice try The concept that the Bible was written so a child could understand it is a myth that has been created by Christians. You will not find one passage that states this. In fact, Peter even states himself that Paul's writings are hard to understand (2 Peter 3:15-16). Now I'm not saying that a person has to obtain a doctorate or go to school in order to understand the Bible. However, we must look in depth into the Bible because it is hard to understand. Looking at the original language is one of the best ways to do this. David Alan Black states is best when he says, "Facility in the biblical languages has long been recognized as a basic requirement for pastoral ministry. No person is likely to grasp the intended meaning of the Bible, on its deepest level, unless that person learns to read and, in some sense, think in hebrew and Greek." In other words, in order to be able to understand the Bible on a deeper level, one must study the langauges it was originally written in. The English, to put it simply, is inferior in conveying the full message of the Bible. In fact, a quick reading of Acts 9:7 and Acts 22:9 in the English show an "obvious" contradiction. However a student of the Greek (and even a layman that has the ability to look at a concordonance) can quickly see the fallacy in this claim.

I say all that to say this; going back to the original language and context does not tangle up any ideas, it simply untangles the mess that is made in English.

Verse 21

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Verse 22

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith

[tsth]

Whereas Paul states that Abraham's works meant nothing to God,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, you misunderstand. The works that Paul refers to, are the same works he refers to in Romans 4

Those works which a person does out of a debt or burden, rather than love and belief. But either way, they are still a work, one of Christ and love, the other of debt and burden.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[apothanein kerdos]

Whereas Paul states that Abraham's works meant nothing to God,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, you misunderstand. The works that Paul refers to, are the same works he refers to in Romans 4

Those works which a person does out of a debt or burden, rather than love and belief. But either way, they are still a work, one of Christ and love, the other of debt and burden.

In His Love,

Suzanne

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why is it people pick one part of what I say and ignore everything else? Paul is specifically stating that works do not save us nor do they have any part in obtaining faith. My previous post proves this well enough.

[Anne]

Super Jew

How is it you know that the interpretation I wrote is in contradiction of Paul? I haven't posted any interpretation I have on Paul yet. So how is it you conclude I am contradicting?

Nevermind,.......I didn't post this study to incite argument, I was hoping that someone would find comfort in it.

You see James is saying faith in Christ Jesus will produce works in Christ Jesus. That's all, nothing complicated about that.

Your Sister in Christ Jesus

Anne

[apothanein kerdos]

Super Jew

How is it you know that the interpretation I wrote is in contradiction of Paul?  I haven't posted any interpretation I have on Paul yet.  So how is it you conclude I am contradicting?

Nevermind,.......I didn't post this study to incite argument, I was hoping that someone would find comfort in it.

You see James is saying faith in Christ Jesus will produce works in Christ Jesus.  That's all, nothing complicated about that.

Your Sister in Christ Jesus

Anne

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I thought you were saying that works produced faith...or that in order to have faith we had to have works first...if you're advocating that works are seperate from faith and are an overflow of faith then I highly misread you.

[Khristeeanos]

Hebrews 11 gives the definition of faith and then gives examples.

Here is what it says about Abraham:

Hebrews 11:8

By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.

Surely you can see that faith is much more than belief. Abraham's faith was his obedience. They are one and the same.