Not under the law

[Ovedya]

Anybody else wondering if this is going to turn into a justification for living as he pleases - since we are already justified and sanctified and not under law and all that?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Eventually I suspect it will get to that.

[Guest Colossians]

God-man,

I am a seasoned debater from numerous theological sites.

Every site I have visited seems to have its quota of 'floaters' who like to make seemingly smart statements which are merely attempts to disguise inability to cope with the specific issue, and to pick up a few buddies on the way through.

(To be seen to be knowledgable.)

[Yahsway]

Colossians, Yeshua DID keep the Sabbath. The Sabbath day has never changed.

We are free to worship God everyday of the week. But the Sabbath day is forever.

Yeshua is not seperate from the Father. He stated many times in scripture that He and the Father are One. Yeshua is the TORAH, The Word, He is our teacher, our instructer.

And here is the patience of the saints: here are they that Keep the commandments of GOD, AND the Faith of Yeshua. Rev. 14:12

This really sums it up for me. Gods commandments, Faith in Yeshua, They are both inclusive.

"Blessed are they that DO HIS COMMANDMENTS, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie". Rev. 22:14-15

[Guest Colossians]

Colossians, Yeshua DID keep the Sabbath.

No He didn't. That was the main accusation against Him continually.

The Sabbath day has never changed. We are free to worship God everyday of the week.

No, we are not free to worship Him every day. We are compelled to worship Him every day. Therefore your Sabbath is redundant.

But the Sabbath day is forever.

It can't be. Days are not forever, but will disappear when the physical realm is removed.

You also need to understand Heb 4:10.

Yeshua is not seperate from the Father.

He is and he isn't. That is why there is a Trinity.

Look at John 15:10: how many sets of commandments are there?

You need to understand that the word "commandments" does not always mean "OT commandments". God is not locked in to something just because it was in writing first.

The first commandment is "thou shalt not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil". This means: "ignore the next 10".

And here is the patience of the saints: here are they that Keep the commandments of GOD, AND the Faith of Yeshua. Rev. 14:12

This really sums it up for me. Gods commandments, Faith in Yeshua, They are both inclusive.

You have it around the wrong way. You read this as "commandments = faith in Christ". But it is the other way around: "faith in Christ = commandments". See 1 Jn 3:23. That is, the word "commandments" in Revelation is used as a type to refer to faith.

Edited December 1, 2004 by Colossians

[Guest shiloh357]

Colossians, Yeshua DID keep the Sabbath.

No He didn't. That was the main accusation against Him continually.

Yes he did. It was his enemies that said he did not keep the Sabbath. Jesus kept every commandment of the Torah perfectly.

If Jesus were a law breaker, they would not have held his trial in secret. If he had been a law breaker, the people would not have considered him a prophet. Jesus was obedient to God's Torah 100% There was no fault found in him, he was blameless.

The Sabbath day has never changed. We are free to worship God everyday of the week.

No, we are not free to worship Him every day. We are compelled to worship Him every day. Therefore your Sabbath is redundant.

The sabbath was not set aside as a day of worship. It was set aside as a day of rest. The Sabbath is not redundant at all. Everyday is a day of worship, the Sabbath is a day of rest.

But the Sabbath day is forever.

It can't be. Days are not forever, but will disappear when the physical realm is removed.

You also need to understand Heb 4:10.

The ordinance is eternal.

Exo 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

Exo 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Exo 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Exo 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. Exo 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel forever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

Throughout your generations, prepetual covenant, forever, are three ways of saying the same thing. It is quite emphatic. If you don't know what one of those terms mean, there are two more to explain it. God left nothing to chance.

"Throughout your generations, as a perpetual covenant, forever, does NOT mean "Until the Messiah comes."

[Yahsway]

*SALVATION does not come thru the keeping of the LAW. It is a GIFT from GOD to those who accept YESHUA as their SAVIOR and believe that He is the Son of God, come in the flesh. And that He shed His blood to pay our SIN DEBT. Even though we are saved by faith we must remember that Yeshua said He did not come to destroy the law or the prophets.

* The Sabbath law is not to be considered one of the ceremonial laws given to Moses. The Ten Commandments, Gods moral law, were given separately, before the ceremonial law, and were written in stone rather than in a book.

*The 4th Commandment has absolutely nothing to do with RELIGIOUS activity on any certain day. In fact, it is just the opposite, a day of rest, prescribed by God. We should worship God every day.

* The Sabbath was established at the time of the creation of the world. It is not the Jewish Sabbath, or the Christian Sabbath; it is Gods Sabbath.

*The people were aware of Gods sabbath before the 10 commandments were given on Mt. Sinai

* Yeshua talked about the Sabbath just as He did the other commandments. He elaborated upon the 4th commandment by saying that it was all right to do good on the Sabbath.HE NEVER SAID THAT THE OBSERVENCE OF THE SABBATH WAS A THING OF THE PAST, AND IN FACT SAID NOTHING WOULD CHANGE FROM THE LAW UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASSED AWAY. THAT HAS NOT HAPPENED YET.

*Yeshua went on to add the following: "WHOSOEVER THEREFORE SHALL BREAK ONE OF THESE LEAST COMMANDMENTS, AND SHALL TEACH MEN SO, HE SHALL BE CALLED LEAST IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN; BUT WHOSOEVER SHALL DO AND TEACH THEM, THE SAME SHALL BE CALLED GREAT IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN". Matt 5:19

*The followers of Yeshua observed the Sabbath. The very people who walked and talked with Yeshua "rested the Sabbath day according to the commandment." We are told in the book of Acts that Paul kept the law. And in Acts 15:21, we read that the Gentile Christians were encouraged to go to the Synagogues on the Sabbath day and learn about the laws of Moses.

* In Isaiah 66:22-23 we are told that the Sabbath is not just a thing of the past and that in the new heaven and the new earth the sabbath will be recognized.

Here is the patience of the saints. Those that keep the commandments of God AND have the faith in Yeshua.

The AND is important there in that verse.

You say God is not locked into anything because it was in writing first? Who do you think wrote those 10 commands? Do the scriptures not say that He is God and changeth Not? Either He is the same yesterday today and forever or He is not correct?

Why do you hate His laws Colossians? What is there about His 10 commands that you so adamently abhor? I do not understand you. You say you are a Christian, true? Why would you attack His word so?

If others here say they love God and Yeshua, knowing that they are saved by His grace thru their faith, and want to please Him and acknowledge His laws have not passed away, why do you fight it so?

No one here said the 10 commands saved you. We are just affirming that they to us are not done away with. If you prefer to believe that they are no longer significant, then thats between you and God. If others want to believe so, then thats between them and God.

Let everyone be convinced in his own mind. I just prefer to look upon the 10 commands as being Yeshuas Holy word since He evidently wrote them. In the beginning was the Word and that Word is Yeshua.

[nebula]

God-man,

I am a seasoned debater from numerous theological sites.

Every site I have visited seems to have its quota of 'floaters' who like to make seemingly smart statements which are merely attempts to disguise inability to cope with the specific issue, and to pick up a few buddies on the way through.

(To be seen to be knowledgable.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey, God-Man!

Is he refering to me or to you?

Yeah, we're "floaters" all right!

. . . Maybe we ought to have the "Post counters" back up . . . .

[Botz]

Just an observation.

1Corinthians 13:1 If I speak with the languages of men and of angels, but don't have love, I have become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal.

The Law that we who are in Christ are now under has certain ramifications.

The best scholar in the world can be so right in his arguments but lose big time in his attitude.

Romans 12:9 Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor that which is evil. Cling to that which is good.

Rom 12:10 In love of the brothers be tenderly affectionate one to another; in honor preferring one another;

Sometimes we are guilty of the very fault we observe in other people...and we fall into the very same pit we have dug.

Romans 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

[Guest shiloh357]

Just an observation.

1Corinthians 13:1  If I speak with the languages of men and of angels, but don't have love, I have become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal.

The Law that we who are in Christ are now under has certain ramifications.

The best scholar in the world can be so right in his arguments but lose big time in his attitude.

Romans 12:9  Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor that which is evil. Cling to that which is good.

Rom 12:10  In love of the brothers be tenderly affectionate one to another; in honor preferring one another;

Sometimes we are guilty of the very fault we observe in other people...and we fall into the very same pit we have dug.

Romans 10:2  For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

Rom 10:3  For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Right on Botz!!

[apothanein kerdos]

Yes, all the law hangs on these two commandments. But these two commandments do not hang on the law.

Pause for a moment, and conceptualise each position:

1. Firstly conceptualise what it means for the law to hang on the two greatest commandments.

2. Secondly, think about the converse, the two hanging from the law. (How does this change the meaning?)

You will find that it is actually the second position you are thinking, not the first.

Therefore you have it the opposite way around from scripture.

Note also that the two greatest commandments are still part of the law which we are not under. This is why Jesus had to give a new commandment.

The new commandment differs from the 2 greatest in that it contains the power of personal example/precedent: "as I have loved you".

This is the new covenant: Christ works in us

I think you are missing the point of these two commandments. Jesus is summarizing all of the commandments into two categories: Love of God and love of man. In fact, the "new commandment" you bring up actually fits into the second of the most important commandments. I believe you are hard pressed to advocate that we no longer live under these commandments seeing as how Jesus put a great emphasis upon them. What would be the point of Jesus putting emphasis upon something (even dedicating an entire parable to explain the meaning of them) if they would be nullified and void within three years? It doesn't make logical or biblical sense at all. Thus we must conclude that Christ emphasized these commandments to say, "Here is what you shall do." All this does is show us the role of Christ within the Godhead. God is the author of the law, Jesus is the interpreter of it, and the Holy Spirit is the enforcer. What Christ did with the law was interpret it properly. I think one thing you forget (and something I will hit upon later) is that the Rabbis, specifically the Pharisees, had taken the law of Moses (delieverd by God) and written seperate books of interpretation upon it. They applied their own interpretation of the books. This is why we often see Jesus being accused of violating the law. It's not that He is violating the law so much as He is violating the rabbinical interpretation of the law.

Commandment'.

Accordingly, when Jesus addressed the religious people, He said to them: "It saith in YOUR law....", and not "it saith in OUR law". That is, He distanced Himself from their system.

This is to create a split within the Trinity and actually raises Christ to a more important role than God...or puts Christ ahead of God which devastates the way the Godhead works. You assert that somehow Jesus said His commandments were somehow superior to the Old Covenant commandments. Likewise, by saying, "your law" He is refering to their interpretation of the law. Christ came down to redefine the interpretations that the Jews had placed upon the law. Likewise He came down to fufill the law, not to abolish it. He made it to where we are no longer justified by the law but that it is a good guide on living within Christ.

So I am defining legalism as "any attention to any OT commandments whatsoever", and dispensing with the law carte blanche, which is the NT position, and why Hebrews 7:18 says the law is disannulled.

The confusion in the mainline camp is that they don't understand the witnessing function of the law as per Rm 3:21, and Rm 13:9, that the law now merely witnesses our righteousness, and plays no part in achieving it. It is stand-apart, and stand-alone.

I somewhat agree with you. I think that the Christian church (or any church) has no part in certain aspects of the law. It would be hard for a Christian or anyone to follow the Levitical laws since the last Levite to live was Jesus Christ. However, the Old Covenant is the basis for the New Covenant. It is impossible to live a holy life while ignoring the Old Covenant. Many of the rules in the O.C. are simply summarized in the N.C.

Without realising it, this question actually reveals the problem I have alluded to above, and hopefully now you have begun to see this.

If we walk by the Spirit, we will not be thinking about how we should appear - our eyes will not be on our performance, but on Him and Him only.

The term "the law" means not only "the decalogue" or "the torah", but "the flesh", "my efforts" and generally, "absence of Christ".

It we take one second to 'check' whether we are living 'correctly', then we have spent one second in the law which should have been spent in Christ.

You need to be careful. You've actually become legalistic about legalism. You're asserting that anytime we go, "am I doing the right thing" we are sinning against God. This is a legalistic stance . There is nothing wrong with asking God if we are doing the right thing. Our primary concern should be our pursuit of God, however being fallible we are going to fail and sometimes run into things that we just aren't sure about. That is a good time to ask questions. However, we shouldn't become consumed with an acts based faith either. It should merely be a footnote in our walk.

I honestly think you've taken it to an extreme...that or you are not clearly dictating what you believe. The law is naturally written upon our hearts. This means that a life in pursuit of God will naturally live the written law of the O.T. This does not nullify the O.T. but instead enhances it.