The Book of Revelation/Past or Future

[Micheal Westin]

mainly its a future event because the second coming of Jesus Christ is tied directly with the antichrist being destroyed 2 Thessalonians 2:8 (And then the lawless one (antichrist) will be revealed, Whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming )

 

there's no way to get around this plain biblical fact, the antichrist and the real Christ are two inseparable events, you can't have the antichrist without the following and direct coming of the real Christ The Lord Jesus who is king of kings and Lord of Lords 

[Micheal Westin]

I understand the teaching errors concerning both Daniel and Revelation, because I was taught them. To cover the topic takes the length of a book. I'll keep it short.

 

 Daniel and Revelation are of the style known as apocalyptic literature which were written between 200 BC and 200 AD.  There are other Jewish apocalypses, but deemed non-canonical (approved by a church body): the three books of Enoch, the Second Book of Esdras, the apocalypse of Baruch, and the Ascension of Isaiah. Found amongst the Dead Sea Scrolls were the Christian apocalypses of Peter, of Thomas, and the Shepherd of Hermas. 

 

Apocalypses were political manifestos written during times of oppressive regimes. Apocalyptic literatures' intention is to inspire the believer to stand upright and not forsake his or her faith, even unto death. It says, that in the end, God will give his rewards to the believer and judge the individuals and nations that persecuted them.

 

They were written in a time of religious persecution. The message to the church was, "to lose ones life was to save ones life." The believer is not to deny the LORD even unto death. Daniel was written in 164 BC. It was the first religious persecution in history. To be caught reading the Torah was to be killed, to circumcise their son was a death sentence. Antiochus IV is the little horn who ruled from 175-164 BC.  In Daniel 9, "After two weeks an anointed shall be cut down when he does not possess the city." Onias III, the high priest was in exile to Egypt, and "did not possess the city," and was assassinated by Menelaus, "cut down."  Many confuse this anointed one with Christ. Some bibles even change the translation of "an anointed" to Messiah," which is an interpretation and not a translation.

      Antiochus made agreements with the Jews ("many") that allied with him. Half the week was in 167 to 165 when Antiochus desecrated the temple with his abomination of desolation by placing an inscription above the temple, dedicating it to Zeus.

 

Like the Book of Daniel, Revelation was composed during a period of persecution. Revelation reflects the persecution during Nero's reign (37-68 AD) and during Domitian's reign (81-96 AD). Using gematria  the symbolic number 666 is the number of Qsr Nrwn, the Hebrew for Nero. Nero attacked the Church in 64-65. He ordered Christians to be crucified, covered with tar, and then set on fire to illuminate the night. He did this in a sick artistic fashion--hence the term 'Roman Candle.' He put to death the "two witnesses" Paul and Peter. For John, Caesar Neron is evil, the definitive Antichrist.

     In Daniel, the beast is the Greeks persecuting God's people, for John it is the Roman Empire (Babylon, the Great Harlot).

     There are two separate writings of Revelation, merged to form the present book. The first apocalypse occurred in the time of Nero, and its writings cover chapters 4-11, preceded by the introduction. During the apocalypse of  Domitian (thirty years later) the rest of Revelation (chapters 12-22) were composed, tying it in with the previous version and at the same time introducing the seven letters to the churches.

      Revelation "depicts the cosmic struggle between God and Satan, as it plays out upon the state of human history."¹ Rome is Satan's agent persecuting Christ's nation of priests. Roman law required citizens to worship the emperor and the state. Christians had to choose: the Lamb or the Emperor. It was the choice of accepting the mark of the beast or being sealed to Christ. John is warning Christians not to be tempted into syncretism or apostasy. They cannot serve two lords. Revelation warns the church not to turn its back on God, or it will meet a catastrophic end. The message is uncomplicated: in the end, nothing will escape God's judgment!  Revelation assures those that remain faithful, during this time of persecution, that they will participate in the glory of the "wedding feast" of the Lamb. 

 

¹Kim Riddlebargher, Sermons on Revelation, 2

 

Source: editor, William R. Farmer, The International Bible Commentary, (The Liturgical Press, Collegeville, Minnesota 1998) ISBN 0-8146-2454-5

glad you kept it short

[SDAinFLA]

the Revelation of Jesus Christ is perpetual, past present and future, eternal.

He who is Alpha and Omega has no beginning or end.

 

 

 

The reason (I believe) why Jesus has not come back is there is still a work to do for Christ in the heavenly sanctuary. Once he finishes the work of judgment, he will then come back to get his people.

 

this sounds extra-biblical.

why would you believe this?  what work? what judgement? chapter and verse?

Hi. I'm looking at 1Peter 4:17 - For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

 

Also I am looking at Revelation 14:7 - "Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters."

[BlessedByTheBest]

 

the Revelation of Jesus Christ is perpetual, past present and future, eternal.

He who is Alpha and Omega has no beginning or end.

 

 

 

The reason (I believe) why Jesus has not come back is there is still a work to do for Christ in the heavenly sanctuary. Once he finishes the work of judgment, he will then come back to get his people.

 

this sounds extra-biblical.

why would you believe this?  what work? what judgement? chapter and verse?

Hi. I'm looking at 1Peter 4:17 - For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

 

Also I am looking at Revelation 14:7 - "Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters."

 

 

Hi SDA

 

in context, we should start at verse 12 and go beyond 17.

 

1Pe 4:12  Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: 

1Pe 4:13  But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. 

1Pe 4:14  If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

 

1Pe 4:15  But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.

1Pe 4:16  Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

 

1Pe 4:17  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 

1Pe 4:18  And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

1Pe 4:19  Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator. 

 

 

this speaks of the persecution every Christian experiences as a pilgrim on this earth.  we should rejoice in our suffering, and not be ashamed of it.

the judgement Peter spoke of is discipline, which is an ongoing process as we are conformed to the image of Christ, in comparison to the utter destructive judgement of the wicked.

it's called sanctification.

 

also, only the flesh is brought under condemnation of the law.  there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus who walk after the Spirit. (Rom 8:1)

therefore, our judgement, our trial, and our execution was finished when our flesh was crucified at the cross with Jesus.

 

in light of the context, i don't see what you mean by Christ finishing judgment as a prerequisite to His returning for the Church.

finishing what judgement? finishing who's judgement?

------

 

Rev 14:7  Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. 

 

six verses prior to this, we clearly see the Lamb of God and His Bride after the 1st resurrection, so this doesn't help your argument.

[SDAinFLA]

 

 

the Revelation of Jesus Christ is perpetual, past present and future, eternal.

He who is Alpha and Omega has no beginning or end.

 

 

 

The reason (I believe) why Jesus has not come back is there is still a work to do for Christ in the heavenly sanctuary. Once he finishes the work of judgment, he will then come back to get his people.

 

this sounds extra-biblical.

why would you believe this?  what work? what judgement? chapter and verse?

Hi. I'm looking at 1Peter 4:17 - For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

 

Also I am looking at Revelation 14:7 - "Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters."

 

 

Hi SDA

 

in context, we should start at verse 12 and go beyond 17.

 

1Pe 4:12  Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: 

1Pe 4:13  But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. 

1Pe 4:14  If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

 

1Pe 4:15  But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.

1Pe 4:16  Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

 

1Pe 4:17  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 

1Pe 4:18  And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

1Pe 4:19  Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator. 

 

 

this speaks of the persecution every Christian experiences as a pilgrim on this earth.  we should rejoice in our suffering, and not be ashamed of it.

the judgement Peter spoke of is discipline, which is an ongoing process as we are conformed to the image of Christ, in comparison to the utter destructive judgement of the wicked.

it's called sanctification.

 

also, only the flesh is brought under condemnation of the law.  there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus who walk after the Spirit. (Rom 8:1)

therefore, our judgement, our trial, and our execution was finished when our flesh was crucified at the cross with Jesus.

 

in light of the context, i don't see what you mean by Christ finishing judgment as a prerequisite to His returning for the Church.

finishing what judgement? finishing who's judgement?

------

 

Rev 14:7  Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. 

 

six verses prior to this, we clearly see the Lamb of God and His Bride after the 1st resurrection, so this doesn't help your argument.

 

Isn't Peter 4:17 still talking about judgment? It reveals itself in our world as the plight of the Christian, and God conforming us to his image. Is God not doing this? If he is then this is what's taking place....God's judgment. I'm not sure how we disagree.

 

I'm not sure where you are going with my Revelation 14:7 reference. The OP's question was how come Christ has not come yet. My point is that there is judgment going on now. Whether the Lamb of God and his Bride are shown 6 verses earlier...what point are you making? Obviously, Revelation is not read like a novel where what happens in vs. 1 is always the beginning and the last vs  of the chapter is the end. Revelation skips around and repeats itself. So if the lamb is shown with the bride, are you suggesting that Rev 14:7 is post second coming? I am really just trying to figure out your points. Thanks!

[BlessedByTheBest]

"Isn't Peter 4:17 still talking about judgment?"

 

perhaps i misunderstood your statement then? you said:

"The reason (I believe) why Jesus has not come back is there is still a work to do for Christ in the heavenly sanctuary. Once he finishes the work of judgment, he will then come back to get his people."

 

we agree that there is ongoing judgement, but not the kind that impedes Christ's return.  that is something you have inserted into the context, and that is where we disagree.

we will be fully redeemed and fully glorified upon His return regardless of where we are spiritually at within our conforming to His image.  

 

i am aware that the book isn't entirely chronological.  but yes, Revelation 14 is obviously describing Post 2nd Coming.  (EDIT:  Post 1st resurrection, see above post.)

 

Rev 14:1  And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 

[Guest DRS81]

My friend said, "Pretarism is a false doctrine. Throw that dvd in the trash." haha. in the trash it is.

[SDAinFLA]

Ok...so from your original qu

 

 

"Isn't Peter 4:17 still talking about judgment?"

 

we agree that there is ongoing judgement, but not the kind that impedes Christ's return.  that is something you have inserted into the context, and that is where we disagree.

we will be fully redeemed and fully glorified upon His return regardless of where we are spiritually at within our conforming to His image.  

 

i am aware that the book isn't entirely chronological.  but yes, Revelation 14 is obviously describing Post 2nd Coming.

 

Rev 14:1  And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 

 

Well, it's obvious nothing impedes Christ return, so I hope I am not giving off that impression.

 

I was actually trying to keep my posts simple however, you deserve a more indepth explanation.

 

My basis of the judgment comes from the Jewish sanctuary service.

In the typical sanctuary service, the high priest had work to perform after the sacrifice was completed.

 

I believe you already understand the sanctuary service performed by the Jews was model of the heavenly sanctuary.

Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle... Hebrews 8:5

 

In the typical sanctuary, the blood from the sacrifice was carried into the sanctuary after the sacrifice was made

But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people: Heb 9:7

 

The judgment involves a work of cleansing in the earthly sanctuary

For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD. Lev 16:30

 

This same work happens in the heavenly sanctuary

For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us. Heb 9:24

 

Not that this judgment impedes Christ, but it follows the pattern of the earthly sanctuary. The high priest still had a work to perform after the sacrifice, which Christ still is performing a work in us after his sacrifice. This is the judgment, removing our sins when we repent.

[BlessedByTheBest]

Ok...so from your original qu

 

 

"Isn't Peter 4:17 still talking about judgment?"

 

we agree that there is ongoing judgement, but not the kind that impedes Christ's return.  that is something you have inserted into the context, and that is where we disagree.

we will be fully redeemed and fully glorified upon His return regardless of where we are spiritually at within our conforming to His image.  

 

i am aware that the book isn't entirely chronological.  but yes, Revelation 14 is obviously describing Post 2nd Coming.

 

Rev 14:1  And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 

 

 

Not that this judgment impedes Christ, but it follows the pattern of the earthly sanctuary. The high priest still had a work to perform after the sacrifice, which Christ still is performing a work in us after his sacrifice. This is the judgment, removing our sins when we repent.

 

when you sin, and repent, God is already saying, "What sin? I only see my Son."

Christ's blood is forever sprinkled upon the mercy seat.  Christ's atonement was made but once, and eternally.

 

repentance is part of the process of our sanctification, and has no bearing on the removal of our sins.

 

Rom 6:6  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 

Rom 6:7  For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Rom 6:8  Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 

Rom 6:9  Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 

Rom 6:10  For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 

Rom 6:11  Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

there is no judgement in the heavenly sanctuary because my and your judgement was finished at the Cross.  

to say otherwise is heresy, unless one believes that salvation comes by anything other than grace through faith.

 

your sins are already blotted out, as if they never existed, as far as the east is from the west, by faith in Jesus Christ.

[BlessedByTheBest]

as an aside, if you are familiar with the Jewish sanctuary customs, then you also know that Christ's ministry is not governed after the same pattern as the Levitical priesthood.

in fact, upon His crucifixion the Levitical priesthood ended.  (Hebrews 7)