Belief Systems / Religion / Traditions of Men

[Qnts2]

 

 

I believe it was Jesus who came down hard on the Pharisees - Matt 12:34-37

Who else is a better Judge on the Law than Jesus?

Jesus had an obvious disregard for those who held man-made traditions.

Jesus taught His disciples the moral principles of the spirit of the Law at the same time condemning the " straining at a gnat and swallowing of a camel" legalistic attitude of the Pharisees.

Whatever the original concepts the religious leaders created to protect the Law  from the mistakes that Ancient Israel made were based on sincere dedications to God's law no doubt. But as time passed by the pure ideals of the originators became entangled into the  rigorous over-regulations of the sustainers 

Jesus is addressing the Pharisees of His day who have misapplied and traditionalized the original Mosaic code so much so that even the experts in the Law couldn't interpret the system.

 

 

Jesus did come down hard on the Pharisees and other leaders. But, you must understand who the Pharisees were, what they taught, etc. To assume that all Pharisees are horrid people, terrible sinners, etc, is misjudging and misrepresenting the people. To truly understand the Pharisees as generally good people, then the same sins exists today among Christians.  

 

Jesus wrote the law but clearly had no issue with 'man-made' traditions as He practiced, used and approved of 'man-made' traditions. And that is my point. Since Jesus so clearly used and approved of traditions, there is nothing wrong with traditions. People, all people, have traditions. The only traditions Jesus came against were those which contradicted the law or broke the Mosaic law. The other traditions are fine. Jesus who is God, and wrote the law, practiced traditions, and Jesus did not sin.  

 

It is clear from the law, that it was up to people who were judges to interpret the law for the people. So, the judges were given that job by God, in the Mosaic law, and the job of interpretation was not a violation of the law. Jesus challenged the judges, who had the authority from the Mosaic law given by God, for overstepping or overreaching which actually resulted in some situations in a violation of the law. Why was it laying on burdens on the people? Because according to the Mosaic law, the people were to obey the judges.

 

So, the Pharisees were actually zealous for the law which is good. They studied the scriptures which was good. They sought to help people learn the scripture and obey God which was good.  

Traditions are not bad. People, all people, practice traditions. Jesus, who was God, practiced quite a few of the traditions which the leadership of the Jewish people taught. It was only those traditions which went against the law which Jesus objected to. So so called 'man made' traditions are not necessarily bad, unless you want to say Jesus did bad. It is maybe a modern day tradition among some to say traditions are man made and bad, but that statement and judgement violates scripture.

 

What man made traditions did Jesus observe?

The Pharisees elevated their traditions over the intent of the God's Laws.

Besides the washing of pitchers and cups the " Corban " a gift to the temple proclaims a special devotion to God as an excuse  for refusing to help one's needy parents and makes a mockery of service to God since it violates the fifth commandment.-Mark 7:11

The Pharisees  were so obsessed with the minute details of the righteous requirements they were blinded to the big picture-the major spiritual aspects of the Law. Matt23:23

The traditions and teaching of the Jewish leaders contradicted the spiritual intent of God's Laws.

The 6th Commandment-all the Pharisees understood was the act of murder-Jesus tried to teach them just the thought or idea of murdering someone in their mind was a sin breaking the commandment.

7th Commandment-the Pharisees only understood the physical act of sexual relations not that just the lust for another woman was enough to break the Law.

This is what Jesus meant when He said we must exceed the righteousness  of the Pharisees..

 

Zeal can easily be misdirected or misapplied too often - Romans 10:2-3

 

 

Jesus kept the Passover seder. The description of that seder in the NT matches the traditional celebration as put together by the Pharisees. Jesus was at the Temple during Chanukah. The NT mentions a Sabbath days journey, which was a distance set by tradition. These are just a few.

 

You speak about the spiritual aspects of the law, and there are spiritual aspects, but the law is quite real and physical. The Jewish people were required to live out the law physically. When scripture says to withdraw when you are ritually unclean, there are spiritual lessons as the law points to Jesus, but if a person failed to physically withdraw until ritually clean, they were really violating the laws of God. There were consequences to the Jewish people for being disobedient to the physical requirements. Another example is that a Jewish male who was not circumcised was cut off from the people. That is physically real.

 

Now, lets move into the 6th commandment of murder. According to the Mosaic law, one was punished if they committed murder. There were different levels of punishment based on whether the murder was intentional or unintentional. There is no punishment for thinking about murder. Only the act is punished. Some of the Pharisees were judges, who would hear murder cases. They would not have condemned a person for murder, if the physical act was not done. To punish for thoughts was not allowed in the Mosaic law. So, why did Jesus bring up thoughts? He was pointing out the depraved mind. We and they were sinners, not just in deed but in thought. Even though the thought was not against the Mosaic law, it points out the sin nature. So, thinking about murder does not break the 6th commandment,,,, the Mosaic law, but it is a sin against God.

 

The command against committing adultery, in the Mosaic law. When a couple is caught in the act of adultery, both are to be brought before the judges, and the witnesses (2 or 3) are to testify of what they saw. If the judges find the witnesses as truthful, the adulterous couple is then convicted and stoned to death. That is what the law says. A person who thinks lustful thoughts, but does not commit adultery has not broken the Mosaic law. No witnesses of the act, so no judge would find them guilty. Jesus was again, pointing out that lustful thoughts are what lead to violating the commandment. The lustful thought is not a violation of the Mosaic law, but it is a sin against God.

 

So, what Jesus meant when He said we must exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees? The Pharisees, based on Mosaic law standards were very righteous. because the law is physical, and physically obeying the law is called righteous in the OT. The Pharisees were very meticulous about obeying the Mosaic law, so would be considered very righteous. However, it doesn't matter how righteous a person is by actions and works. That person is still a sinner. No one can receive eternal life by the goodness of their works, because they are still dead in sin. Were the Pharisees righteous by OT law? Yes. They were the best of that time frame. But no one gets to heaven based on their good works. They are still sinners, with a mind which is not godly.

 

As long as you caste the Pharisees as evil disgusting people, you will miss what is being said. They were the best. Even the best won't make it to heaven, if all they have to offer is their own works.          

[fruitfull77]

 

 

 

I believe it was Jesus who came down hard on the Pharisees - Matt 12:34-37

Who else is a better Judge on the Law than Jesus?

Jesus had an obvious disregard for those who held man-made traditions.

Jesus taught His disciples the moral principles of the spirit of the Law at the same time condemning the " straining at a gnat and swallowing of a camel" legalistic attitude of the Pharisees.

Whatever the original concepts the religious leaders created to protect the Law  from the mistakes that Ancient Israel made were based on sincere dedications to God's law no doubt. But as time passed by the pure ideals of the originators became entangled into the  rigorous over-regulations of the sustainers 

Jesus is addressing the Pharisees of His day who have misapplied and traditionalized the original Mosaic code so much so that even the experts in the Law couldn't interpret the system.

 

 

Jesus did come down hard on the Pharisees and other leaders. But, you must understand who the Pharisees were, what they taught, etc. To assume that all Pharisees are horrid people, terrible sinners, etc, is misjudging and misrepresenting the people. To truly understand the Pharisees as generally good people, then the same sins exists today among Christians.  

 

Jesus wrote the law but clearly had no issue with 'man-made' traditions as He practiced, used and approved of 'man-made' traditions. And that is my point. Since Jesus so clearly used and approved of traditions, there is nothing wrong with traditions. People, all people, have traditions. The only traditions Jesus came against were those which contradicted the law or broke the Mosaic law. The other traditions are fine. Jesus who is God, and wrote the law, practiced traditions, and Jesus did not sin.  

 

It is clear from the law, that it was up to people who were judges to interpret the law for the people. So, the judges were given that job by God, in the Mosaic law, and the job of interpretation was not a violation of the law. Jesus challenged the judges, who had the authority from the Mosaic law given by God, for overstepping or overreaching which actually resulted in some situations in a violation of the law. Why was it laying on burdens on the people? Because according to the Mosaic law, the people were to obey the judges.

 

So, the Pharisees were actually zealous for the law which is good. They studied the scriptures which was good. They sought to help people learn the scripture and obey God which was good.  

Traditions are not bad. People, all people, practice traditions. Jesus, who was God, practiced quite a few of the traditions which the leadership of the Jewish people taught. It was only those traditions which went against the law which Jesus objected to. So so called 'man made' traditions are not necessarily bad, unless you want to say Jesus did bad. It is maybe a modern day tradition among some to say traditions are man made and bad, but that statement and judgement violates scripture.

 

What man made traditions did Jesus observe?

The Pharisees elevated their traditions over the intent of the God's Laws.

Besides the washing of pitchers and cups the " Corban " a gift to the temple proclaims a special devotion to God as an excuse  for refusing to help one's needy parents and makes a mockery of service to God since it violates the fifth commandment.-Mark 7:11

The Pharisees  were so obsessed with the minute details of the righteous requirements they were blinded to the big picture-the major spiritual aspects of the Law. Matt23:23

The traditions and teaching of the Jewish leaders contradicted the spiritual intent of God's Laws.

The 6th Commandment-all the Pharisees understood was the act of murder-Jesus tried to teach them just the thought or idea of murdering someone in their mind was a sin breaking the commandment.

7th Commandment-the Pharisees only understood the physical act of sexual relations not that just the lust for another woman was enough to break the Law.

This is what Jesus meant when He said we must exceed the righteousness  of the Pharisees..

 

Zeal can easily be misdirected or misapplied too often - Romans 10:2-3

 

 

Jesus kept the Passover seder. The description of that seder in the NT matches the traditional celebration as put together by the Pharisees. Jesus was at the Temple during Chanukah. The NT mentions a Sabbath days journey, which was a distance set by tradition. These are just a few.

 

You speak about the spiritual aspects of the law, and there are spiritual aspects, but the law is quite real and physical. The Jewish people were required to live out the law physically. When scripture says to withdraw when you are ritually unclean, there are spiritual lessons as the law points to Jesus, but if a person failed to physically withdraw until ritually clean, they were really violating the laws of God. There were consequences to the Jewish people for being disobedient to the physical requirements. Another example is that a Jewish male who was not circumcised was cut off from the people. That is physically real.

 

Now, lets move into the 6th commandment of murder. According to the Mosaic law, one was punished if they committed murder. There were different levels of punishment based on whether the murder was intentional or unintentional. There is no punishment for thinking about murder. Only the act is punished. Some of the Pharisees were judges, who would hear murder cases. They would not have condemned a person for murder, if the physical act was not done. To punish for thoughts was not allowed in the Mosaic law. So, why did Jesus bring up thoughts? He was pointing out the depraved mind. We and they were sinners, not just in deed but in thought. Even though the thought was not against the Mosaic law, it points out the sin nature. So, thinking about murder does not break the 6th commandment,,,, the Mosaic law, but it is a sin against God.

 

The command against committing adultery, in the Mosaic law. When a couple is caught in the act of adultery, both are to be brought before the judges, and the witnesses (2 or 3) are to testify of what they saw. If the judges find the witnesses as truthful, the adulterous couple is then convicted and stoned to death. That is what the law says. A person who thinks lustful thoughts, but does not commit adultery has not broken the Mosaic law. No witnesses of the act, so no judge would find them guilty. Jesus was again, pointing out that lustful thoughts are what lead to violating the commandment. The lustful thought is not a violation of the Mosaic law, but it is a sin against God.

 

So, what Jesus meant when He said we must exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees? The Pharisees, based on Mosaic law standards were very righteous. because the law is physical, and physically obeying the law is called righteous in the OT. The Pharisees were very meticulous about obeying the Mosaic law, so would be considered very righteous. However, it doesn't matter how righteous a person is by actions and works. That person is still a sinner. No one can receive eternal life by the goodness of their works, because they are still dead in sin. Were the Pharisees righteous by OT law? Yes. They were the best of that time frame. But no one gets to heaven based on their good works. They are still sinners, with a mind which is not godly.

 

As long as you caste the Pharisees as evil disgusting people, you will miss what is being said. They were the best. Even the best won't make it to heaven, if all they have to offer is their own works.          

 

I'm not the one caste the Pharisees as evil, disgusting people-Jesus was.

The Law, as revealed to Moses, and magnified by Jesus Christ is God's standard of righteousness He is not speaking of the standard of righteousness-He is speaking of the means whereby law-breakers may obtain righteousness-He is saying that because we have all sinned we must obtain righteousness through a way other than the law-and that way is grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. Romans 3.

The spirit of the Law is different than the letter of the Law.

Sin has two faces. When we sin we may or may not face physical consequences.But we always will suffer the spiritual consequences of eternal death.

When the bible says the wages of sin is death, it means the loss of salvation, not physical death. There is your punishment for thinking about murder.

With the New Covenant God writes His law in our hearts and minds with the help of the Holy Spirit. We have been taken to a higher level-something physical Israel didn't have.

In the 10th Commandment it prohibits an attitude rather than a physical act.

Coveting is in the mind and heart.

The ten commandments cover morals and ethics, the spiritual part of the Law.

The Mosaic system brought the rituals and sacrifices needed for cleansing sin-today we have Jesus who has been our sacrifice bringing the perfect law of liberty to us.

 

If Jesus celebrated the Pharisee's customs why did they ask Him in Mark 7:5 " Why don't you walk according to the traditions of the Elders ? "

Sabbath day's journey marked a distance in Numbers for a certain people and time.

It was not a basic principle of Sabbath -keeping otherwise how could one attend a Holy convocation on the Sabbath as commanded if they couldn't leave their place?

Remember the Pharisees degenerated Sabbath-keeping into the bondage of legalism Jesus condemned.

Jesus instituted a new administration of the Passover services -He used bread and wine as symbols of his blood and body sacrifice.

Scholars debate whether the Last supper was the traditional Seder. Jesus introduced new observances including foot washing and other differences.

In the Nt Passover the Seder falls on the following day from the last Supper.time.

Chanukah did have traits of Hellenistic customs or culture.

Where did Jesus celebrate Chanukah in scripture?

[Qnts2]

 

 

 

 

I believe it was Jesus who came down hard on the Pharisees - Matt 12:34-37

Who else is a better Judge on the Law than Jesus?

Jesus had an obvious disregard for those who held man-made traditions.

Jesus taught His disciples the moral principles of the spirit of the Law at the same time condemning the " straining at a gnat and swallowing of a camel" legalistic attitude of the Pharisees.

Whatever the original concepts the religious leaders created to protect the Law  from the mistakes that Ancient Israel made were based on sincere dedications to God's law no doubt. But as time passed by the pure ideals of the originators became entangled into the  rigorous over-regulations of the sustainers 

Jesus is addressing the Pharisees of His day who have misapplied and traditionalized the original Mosaic code so much so that even the experts in the Law couldn't interpret the system.

 

 

Jesus did come down hard on the Pharisees and other leaders. But, you must understand who the Pharisees were, what they taught, etc. To assume that all Pharisees are horrid people, terrible sinners, etc, is misjudging and misrepresenting the people. To truly understand the Pharisees as generally good people, then the same sins exists today among Christians.  

 

Jesus wrote the law but clearly had no issue with 'man-made' traditions as He practiced, used and approved of 'man-made' traditions. And that is my point. Since Jesus so clearly used and approved of traditions, there is nothing wrong with traditions. People, all people, have traditions. The only traditions Jesus came against were those which contradicted the law or broke the Mosaic law. The other traditions are fine. Jesus who is God, and wrote the law, practiced traditions, and Jesus did not sin.  

 

It is clear from the law, that it was up to people who were judges to interpret the law for the people. So, the judges were given that job by God, in the Mosaic law, and the job of interpretation was not a violation of the law. Jesus challenged the judges, who had the authority from the Mosaic law given by God, for overstepping or overreaching which actually resulted in some situations in a violation of the law. Why was it laying on burdens on the people? Because according to the Mosaic law, the people were to obey the judges.

 

So, the Pharisees were actually zealous for the law which is good. They studied the scriptures which was good. They sought to help people learn the scripture and obey God which was good.  

Traditions are not bad. People, all people, practice traditions. Jesus, who was God, practiced quite a few of the traditions which the leadership of the Jewish people taught. It was only those traditions which went against the law which Jesus objected to. So so called 'man made' traditions are not necessarily bad, unless you want to say Jesus did bad. It is maybe a modern day tradition among some to say traditions are man made and bad, but that statement and judgement violates scripture.

 

What man made traditions did Jesus observe?

The Pharisees elevated their traditions over the intent of the God's Laws.

Besides the washing of pitchers and cups the " Corban " a gift to the temple proclaims a special devotion to God as an excuse  for refusing to help one's needy parents and makes a mockery of service to God since it violates the fifth commandment.-Mark 7:11

The Pharisees  were so obsessed with the minute details of the righteous requirements they were blinded to the big picture-the major spiritual aspects of the Law. Matt23:23

The traditions and teaching of the Jewish leaders contradicted the spiritual intent of God's Laws.

The 6th Commandment-all the Pharisees understood was the act of murder-Jesus tried to teach them just the thought or idea of murdering someone in their mind was a sin breaking the commandment.

7th Commandment-the Pharisees only understood the physical act of sexual relations not that just the lust for another woman was enough to break the Law.

This is what Jesus meant when He said we must exceed the righteousness  of the Pharisees..

 

Zeal can easily be misdirected or misapplied too often - Romans 10:2-3

 

 

Jesus kept the Passover seder. The description of that seder in the NT matches the traditional celebration as put together by the Pharisees. Jesus was at the Temple during Chanukah. The NT mentions a Sabbath days journey, which was a distance set by tradition. These are just a few.

 

You speak about the spiritual aspects of the law, and there are spiritual aspects, but the law is quite real and physical. The Jewish people were required to live out the law physically. When scripture says to withdraw when you are ritually unclean, there are spiritual lessons as the law points to Jesus, but if a person failed to physically withdraw until ritually clean, they were really violating the laws of God. There were consequences to the Jewish people for being disobedient to the physical requirements. Another example is that a Jewish male who was not circumcised was cut off from the people. That is physically real.

 

Now, lets move into the 6th commandment of murder. According to the Mosaic law, one was punished if they committed murder. There were different levels of punishment based on whether the murder was intentional or unintentional. There is no punishment for thinking about murder. Only the act is punished. Some of the Pharisees were judges, who would hear murder cases. They would not have condemned a person for murder, if the physical act was not done. To punish for thoughts was not allowed in the Mosaic law. So, why did Jesus bring up thoughts? He was pointing out the depraved mind. We and they were sinners, not just in deed but in thought. Even though the thought was not against the Mosaic law, it points out the sin nature. So, thinking about murder does not break the 6th commandment,,,, the Mosaic law, but it is a sin against God.

 

The command against committing adultery, in the Mosaic law. When a couple is caught in the act of adultery, both are to be brought before the judges, and the witnesses (2 or 3) are to testify of what they saw. If the judges find the witnesses as truthful, the adulterous couple is then convicted and stoned to death. That is what the law says. A person who thinks lustful thoughts, but does not commit adultery has not broken the Mosaic law. No witnesses of the act, so no judge would find them guilty. Jesus was again, pointing out that lustful thoughts are what lead to violating the commandment. The lustful thought is not a violation of the Mosaic law, but it is a sin against God.

 

So, what Jesus meant when He said we must exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees? The Pharisees, based on Mosaic law standards were very righteous. because the law is physical, and physically obeying the law is called righteous in the OT. The Pharisees were very meticulous about obeying the Mosaic law, so would be considered very righteous. However, it doesn't matter how righteous a person is by actions and works. That person is still a sinner. No one can receive eternal life by the goodness of their works, because they are still dead in sin. Were the Pharisees righteous by OT law? Yes. They were the best of that time frame. But no one gets to heaven based on their good works. They are still sinners, with a mind which is not godly.

 

As long as you caste the Pharisees as evil disgusting people, you will miss what is being said. They were the best. Even the best won't make it to heaven, if all they have to offer is their own works.          

 

I'm not the one caste the Pharisees as evil, disgusting people-Jesus was.

The Law, as revealed to Moses, and magnified by Jesus Christ is God's standard of righteousness He is not speaking of the standard of righteousness-He is speaking of the means whereby law-breakers may obtain righteousness-He is saying that because we have all sinned we must obtain righteousness through a way other than the law-and that way is grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. Romans 3.

The spirit of the Law is different than the letter of the Law.

Sin has two faces. When we sin we may or may not face physical consequences.But we always will suffer the spiritual consequences of eternal death.

When the bible says the wages of sin is death, it means the loss of salvation, not physical death. There is your punishment for thinking about murder.

With the New Covenant God writes His law in our hearts and minds with the help of the Holy Spirit. We have been taken to a higher level-something physical Israel didn't have.

In the 10th Commandment it prohibits an attitude rather than a physical act.

Coveting is in the mind and heart.

The ten commandments cover morals and ethics, the spiritual part of the Law.

The Mosaic system brought the rituals and sacrifices needed for cleansing sin-today we have Jesus who has been our sacrifice bringing the perfect law of liberty to us.

 

If Jesus celebrated the Pharisee's customs why did they ask Him in Mark 7:5 " Why don't you walk according to the traditions of the Elders ? "

Sabbath day's journey marked a distance in Numbers for a certain people and time.

It was not a basic principle of Sabbath -keeping otherwise how could one attend a Holy convocation on the Sabbath as commanded if they couldn't leave their place?

Remember the Pharisees degenerated Sabbath-keeping into the bondage of legalism Jesus condemned.

Jesus instituted a new administration of the Passover services -He used bread and wine as symbols of his blood and body sacrifice.

Scholars debate whether the Last supper was the traditional Seder. Jesus introduced new observances including foot washing and other differences.

In the Nt Passover the Seder falls on the following day from the last Supper.time.

Chanukah did have traits of Hellenistic customs or culture.

Where did Jesus celebrate Chanukah in scripture?

 

 

You said 'I'm not the one caste the Pharisees as evil, disgusting people-Jesus was.'

 

No, Jesus did not blanketly caste the Pharisees as evil, disgusting people. That is the way you are reading it, but it is not what Jesus said. You are conveniently missing all of the positive things about the Pharisees, and if you knew more about the Pharisees, you would see much better that Jesus thought they were right and taught many of the same teachings.

 

Let me put it this way, there was a tax collector and a Pharisee who were both praying. Luke 18:11 The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: 'God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector'

 

As long as people see the Pharisees as evil and disgusting people, rather then actually see them for who they really were, they can not learn from the Pharisees as they are too busy being glad they are not like the Pharisees. And as long as a person thinks they are better then the Pharisees, they miss what it means in scripture when it says  Matt 5:20 For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

If you view the Pharisees as evil, then you will likely think of yourself as better, and maybe even think that your righteousness surpasses theirs. The whole point of Matt 5:20 is to say the best of the best of people do not have sufficient righteousness to enter the kingdom of heaven. When Jesus said these things, Jesus was under the Mosaic law, as were all of the people Jesus spoke to. They understood just how righteous the scribes and Pharisees were, as Jesus was agreeing that the Pharisees were righteous people, but even they could not enter the kingdom based on their works.

[Sevenseas]

 

 

I believe I'll be quite humbled when I get to heaven and find all the points I was in error on, as I believe all will. There is no one on earth that is infallible in their beliefs. I'm learning and be corrected on many things as I go along my faith journey. I think that is a good thing. The time to worry I believe is when you think you know it all.

 

 

I would agree with the above.

I used to have a bumper sticker that read: THOSE WHO THINK THEY KNOW IT ALL UPSET THOSE OF US WHO DO!. lol

It was a good reminder to myself. I like the p.s." About the time I get on my high horse, Jesus rides off on his donkey." as well. Is that on Fresno Joe's or Omegaman's. Can't remember. But I do need these occasionally when I start to lose my patience.

 

 

 

Haha...I like that one! That has prob applied to me now and then

 

Yes....Joe does have that in his sig I think...

[Qnts2]

I am doubling back to review the Passover seder. There are commands concerning Passover, but the dinner ceremony has an order of events and this tradition has been in place since before Jesus time. The seder/order has changed some over the years since Jesus time, but much of this service has not changed.

 

Matthew 26:20 Now when evening came, Jesus was reclining at the table with the twelve disciples.

 

In the seder, there is a section which discusses the tradition of reclining at the table. This is not a biblical command, but is a tradition. At that time, free men reclined while eating and servants stood. When God redeemed Israel from Egypt, the children of Israel went from being slaves/servants to free men. To eat in a reclining position is a tradition which shows that God's redemption set us free so that we are now free men.

 

 ²¹As they were eating, He said, “Truly I say to you that one of you will betray Me.” ²² Being deeply grieved, they ^[f]each one began to say to Him, “Surely not I, Lord?” ²³ And He answered, “He who dipped his hand with Me in the bowl is the one who will betray Me.

 

A command in scripture is to consume bitter herbs. In a seder, you dip into the bowl of bitter herbs. The dipping is a tradition. In a modern seder, there are two dippings, the second is in memory of the Temple. In Jesus time, the Temple was still standing so the traditional dip into the bowl of commanded bitter herbs was the only dip. The bitter herbs represent the bitterness of slavery/bondage. It is this symbol for bitterness that Jesus used to identify the one who would betray Him.

 

These are just two examples. Those who have had the opportunity to go thru a Messianic Judaism seder know that there are many more traditions which Jesus did and used to explain what was happening and going to happen moving the Passover from a command to the children of Israel to a NT remembrance of what Jesus did for us.  

[fruitfull77]

Qnts2:

 

How much did the Oral Law play in the life of a Pharisee?

 

The Law was seen as a system of limitations-the more restrictions in the Law the purer the righteousness according to the Pharisees.

 

we know today in our society, red tape and bureaucratic systems can stifle any member of the public to give up on keeping the by-laws and statutes that are demanded.

 

Jesus only tried to teach true piety was not in forms but in substance.

 

Humility, meekness, mercy, compassion, and peacemakers.

Do the Pharisees show these characteristics in the NT?

 

Matthew 23 sums up Jesus view on them.And He is the sole authority on the Law.

 

But it was the leaven of the Pharisees Jesus warned His followers to avoid mostly-which is hypocrisy.

It's not just the Pharisees, we all can be guilty of that type of leaven at times.

 

Nicodemus, Joseph of Arimathea, and Paul., all Pharisees. So true, they aren't all bad in the end. It's not an attack on the person but rather their practices.

 

You can become so inweaved in minute precepts to such an extent with instructions so numerous and trifling that it's possible to lose sight of the Law itself.

 

Looking up Pharisees on most research sites, encyclos, bible dictionaries, and others the consensus is they were the enemy of Jesus because of their over zealous pursuit of the truth in their traditions and understandings rather than in the true Word of God.

 

Paul explains the whole point  in 1 Cor 5:8

[Qnts2]

Qnts2:

 

How much did the Oral Law play in the life of a Pharisee?

 

The Law was seen as a system of limitations-the more restrictions in the Law the purer the righteousness according to the Pharisees.

 

we know today in our society, red tape and bureaucratic systems can stifle any member of the public to give up on keeping the by-laws and statutes that are demanded.

 

Jesus only tried to teach true piety was not in forms but in substance.

 

Humility, meekness, mercy, compassion, and peacemakers.

Do the Pharisees show these characteristics in the NT?

 

Matthew 23 sums up Jesus view on them.And He is the sole authority on the Law.

 

But it was the leaven of the Pharisees Jesus warned His followers to avoid mostly-which is hypocrisy.

It's not just the Pharisees, we all can be guilty of that type of leaven at times.

 

Nicodemus, Joseph of Arimathea, and Paul., all Pharisees. So true, they aren't all bad in the end. It's not an attack on the person but rather their practices.

 

You can become so inweaved in minute precepts to such an extent with instructions so numerous and trifling that it's possible to lose sight of the Law itself.

 

Looking up Pharisees on most research sites, encyclos, bible dictionaries, and others the consensus is they were the enemy of Jesus because of their over zealous pursuit of the truth in their traditions and understandings rather than in the true Word of God.

 

Paul explains the whole point  in 1 Cor 5:8

 

Have you ever read any of the writings of any Pharisees? Have you read the writings of Hillel senior?

Have you even read about Gamaliel in the NT? Was he showing mercy? Was he trying to be a peacemaker? The trouble is, you really do not know their practices. You only quote their failures, but miss all of the good things they did.  

 

Again, generally speaking, the Pharisees were good people. Most were unsaved. Many believed on Jesus and were saved.

 

Of people in general who were unsaved, do you know that all people who are not saved, who are lost, are enemies of God and Jesus. Not just Pharisees who did not accept Jesus, but all people who reject Jesus are enemies of God.

[fruitfull77]

 

Qnts2:

 

How much did the Oral Law play in the life of a Pharisee?

 

The Law was seen as a system of limitations-the more restrictions in the Law the purer the righteousness according to the Pharisees.

 

we know today in our society, red tape and bureaucratic systems can stifle any member of the public to give up on keeping the by-laws and statutes that are demanded.

 

Jesus only tried to teach true piety was not in forms but in substance.

 

Humility, meekness, mercy, compassion, and peacemakers.

Do the Pharisees show these characteristics in the NT?

 

Matthew 23 sums up Jesus view on them.And He is the sole authority on the Law.

 

But it was the leaven of the Pharisees Jesus warned His followers to avoid mostly-which is hypocrisy.

It's not just the Pharisees, we all can be guilty of that type of leaven at times.

 

Nicodemus, Joseph of Arimathea, and Paul., all Pharisees. So true, they aren't all bad in the end. It's not an attack on the person but rather their practices.

 

You can become so inweaved in minute precepts to such an extent with instructions so numerous and trifling that it's possible to lose sight of the Law itself.

 

Looking up Pharisees on most research sites, encyclos, bible dictionaries, and others the consensus is they were the enemy of Jesus because of their over zealous pursuit of the truth in their traditions and understandings rather than in the true Word of God.

 

Paul explains the whole point  in 1 Cor 5:8

 

Have you ever read any of the writings of any Pharisees? Have you read the writings of Hillel senior?

Have you even read about Gamaliel in the NT? Was he showing mercy? Was he trying to be a peacemaker? The trouble is, you really do not know their practices. You only quote their failures, but miss all of the good things they did.  

 

Again, generally speaking, the Pharisees were good people. Most were unsaved. Many believed on Jesus and were saved.

 

Of people in general who were unsaved, do you know that all people who are not saved, who are lost, are enemies of God and Jesus. Not just Pharisees who did not accept Jesus, but all people who reject Jesus are enemies of God.

 

My source is the NT scriptures-you can read what Jesus says about the Pharisees primarily in the four gospels.

No other source trumps God's word.

The Bible documents Jesus's warnings and charges verbatim concerning the Pharisees.

Defending a group of religious leaders that operated with malice and plotting in Jesus's case could be considered enemies of God.

Remember, Jesus, who was the God of the Old Testament is the recipient of any worship from these groups whether they knew it or not.

Jesus was the word and the creator of everything that is. We exist because of Him. What Christ states we should believe.

The evil we do leads to condemnation but the good things we do will not save us unless we are in Christ Jesus.

I stand with Jesus.

[Qnts2]

 

 

Qnts2:

 

How much did the Oral Law play in the life of a Pharisee?

 

The Law was seen as a system of limitations-the more restrictions in the Law the purer the righteousness according to the Pharisees.

 

we know today in our society, red tape and bureaucratic systems can stifle any member of the public to give up on keeping the by-laws and statutes that are demanded.

 

Jesus only tried to teach true piety was not in forms but in substance.

 

Humility, meekness, mercy, compassion, and peacemakers.

Do the Pharisees show these characteristics in the NT?

 

Matthew 23 sums up Jesus view on them.And He is the sole authority on the Law.

 

But it was the leaven of the Pharisees Jesus warned His followers to avoid mostly-which is hypocrisy.

It's not just the Pharisees, we all can be guilty of that type of leaven at times.

 

Nicodemus, Joseph of Arimathea, and Paul., all Pharisees. So true, they aren't all bad in the end. It's not an attack on the person but rather their practices.

 

You can become so inweaved in minute precepts to such an extent with instructions so numerous and trifling that it's possible to lose sight of the Law itself.

 

Looking up Pharisees on most research sites, encyclos, bible dictionaries, and others the consensus is they were the enemy of Jesus because of their over zealous pursuit of the truth in their traditions and understandings rather than in the true Word of God.

 

Paul explains the whole point  in 1 Cor 5:8

 

Have you ever read any of the writings of any Pharisees? Have you read the writings of Hillel senior?

Have you even read about Gamaliel in the NT? Was he showing mercy? Was he trying to be a peacemaker? The trouble is, you really do not know their practices. You only quote their failures, but miss all of the good things they did.  

 

Again, generally speaking, the Pharisees were good people. Most were unsaved. Many believed on Jesus and were saved.

 

Of people in general who were unsaved, do you know that all people who are not saved, who are lost, are enemies of God and Jesus. Not just Pharisees who did not accept Jesus, but all people who reject Jesus are enemies of God.

 

My source is the NT scriptures-you can read what Jesus says about the Pharisees primarily in the four gospels.

No other source trumps God's word.

The Bible documents Jesus's warnings and charges verbatim concerning the Pharisees.

Defending a group of religious leaders that operated with malice and plotting in Jesus's case could be considered enemies of God.

Remember, Jesus, who was the God of the Old Testament is the recipient of any worship from these groups whether they knew it or not.

Jesus was the word and the creator of everything that is. We exist because of Him. What Christ states we should believe.

The evil we do leads to condemnation but the good things we do will not save us unless we are in Christ Jesus.

I stand with Jesus.

 

 

The scriptures record exchanges between some of the Pharisees and Jesus. These were said to Jewish people from a Jewish context by a Jewish Messiah. The Jewish people knew the character, teachings and actions of the Pharisees. In other words, your understanding of what was happening and being said is out of context. And, you seem to miss where Jesus agreed with the Pharisees, complimented them, and misses the positive things said about the Pharisees. In other words, your interpretation of scripture gives a slanted and unaccurate view.

 

Why does this matter? Because you seem to be missing what is actually being said. Plus, your interpretation paints a negative extreme of some actual people. From a Jewish perspective, you are painting the NT as anti-Jewish. Jesus, Who was born a Jew, never gave an anti-Jewish statement and neither did Paul. The anti-Jewish interpretation not only alters what is actually being said, but causes a misrepresentation of what the NT actually says and is about to the Jewish people.

 

Jesus often agreed with the Pharisees understanding of the scriptures, so the corrections were more like, 'you have all of this right, but you missed it here'. The exchange with the Pharisees shows that the Pharisees saw Jesus as a Rabbi and a leader of a small Rabbinical school. There were multiple groups of Pharisees related to various schools. The biggest and most popular school majored on mercy, so when you challenge Pharisees as lacking any teaching on mercy, that is very clearly wrong. Bad interpretation, and understanding which leads to idea which are clearly false, does not do any good. Especially when you are representing Jesus.      

[fruitfull77]

 

 

 

Qnts2:

 

How much did the Oral Law play in the life of a Pharisee?

 

The Law was seen as a system of limitations-the more restrictions in the Law the purer the righteousness according to the Pharisees.

 

we know today in our society, red tape and bureaucratic systems can stifle any member of the public to give up on keeping the by-laws and statutes that are demanded.

 

Jesus only tried to teach true piety was not in forms but in substance.

 

Humility, meekness, mercy, compassion, and peacemakers.

Do the Pharisees show these characteristics in the NT?

 

Matthew 23 sums up Jesus view on them.And He is the sole authority on the Law.

 

But it was the leaven of the Pharisees Jesus warned His followers to avoid mostly-which is hypocrisy.

It's not just the Pharisees, we all can be guilty of that type of leaven at times.

 

Nicodemus, Joseph of Arimathea, and Paul., all Pharisees. So true, they aren't all bad in the end. It's not an attack on the person but rather their practices.

 

You can become so inweaved in minute precepts to such an extent with instructions so numerous and trifling that it's possible to lose sight of the Law itself.

 

Looking up Pharisees on most research sites, encyclos, bible dictionaries, and others the consensus is they were the enemy of Jesus because of their over zealous pursuit of the truth in their traditions and understandings rather than in the true Word of God.

 

Paul explains the whole point  in 1 Cor 5:8

 

Have you ever read any of the writings of any Pharisees? Have you read the writings of Hillel senior?

Have you even read about Gamaliel in the NT? Was he showing mercy? Was he trying to be a peacemaker? The trouble is, you really do not know their practices. You only quote their failures, but miss all of the good things they did.  

 

Again, generally speaking, the Pharisees were good people. Most were unsaved. Many believed on Jesus and were saved.

 

Of people in general who were unsaved, do you know that all people who are not saved, who are lost, are enemies of God and Jesus. Not just Pharisees who did not accept Jesus, but all people who reject Jesus are enemies of God.

 

My source is the NT scriptures-you can read what Jesus says about the Pharisees primarily in the four gospels.

No other source trumps God's word.

The Bible documents Jesus's warnings and charges verbatim concerning the Pharisees.

Defending a group of religious leaders that operated with malice and plotting in Jesus's case could be considered enemies of God.

Remember, Jesus, who was the God of the Old Testament is the recipient of any worship from these groups whether they knew it or not.

Jesus was the word and the creator of everything that is. We exist because of Him. What Christ states we should believe.

The evil we do leads to condemnation but the good things we do will not save us unless we are in Christ Jesus.

I stand with Jesus.

 

 

The scriptures record exchanges between some of the Pharisees and Jesus. These were said to Jewish people from a Jewish context by a Jewish Messiah. The Jewish people knew the character, teachings and actions of the Pharisees. In other words, your understanding of what was happening and being said is out of context. And, you seem to miss where Jesus agreed with the Pharisees, complimented them, and misses the positive things said about the Pharisees. In other words, your interpretation of scripture gives a slanted and unaccurate view.

 

Why does this matter? Because you seem to be missing what is actually being said. Plus, your interpretation paints a negative extreme of some actual people. From a Jewish perspective, you are painting the NT as anti-Jewish. Jesus, Who was born a Jew, never gave an anti-Jewish statement and neither did Paul. The anti-Jewish interpretation not only alters what is actually being said, but causes a misrepresentation of what the NT actually says and is about to the Jewish people.

 

Jesus often agreed with the Pharisees understanding of the scriptures, so the corrections were more like, 'you have all of this right, but you missed it here'. The exchange with the Pharisees shows that the Pharisees saw Jesus as a Rabbi and a leader of a small Rabbinical school. There were multiple groups of Pharisees related to various schools. The biggest and most popular school majored on mercy, so when you challenge Pharisees as lacking any teaching on mercy, that is very clearly wrong. Bad interpretation, and understanding which leads to idea which are clearly false, does not do any good. Especially when you are representing Jesus. 

I understand the NT bible to be strictly Jewish in its practices and its customs. When Jesus was alive and the Apostles there was no NT. They all used the OT as their basis for teaching. Jesus quoted from the OT hundreds of time. And He didn't come to destroy the Law He came to fulfill it.

Anti-Jewish arguments didn't surface until the NT church started converting gentiles. And dissension was spreading.I wasn't on that path.

But the Pharisees confronted Jesus many times trying to trip Him up and followed Him to gather evidence to prove their accusations. these were just exchanges?

If anything we could label the Pharisees as anti-Christ. The Pharisees were Jews, the Apostles were Jews, everybody was Jewish-there was no anti-Semitism among them.

But the Pharisees were bent on getting Christ killed.and to blame them for their part in that has nothing to do with the Jewish religion it has to do with their attitude and actions.

self-righteousness is the antithesis of Godly righteousness.

Yes there was some who worshipped Him but He said " In vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men" Matt 15:9

The Pharisees witnessed Jesus' miracles and accused Him of being of the devil which Jesus called blasphemy against him.

They would lie in wait in the synagogues hoping that He would heal on the Sabbath so they would have something tangible to take to the authorities.

Jesus was mad at them but not in the way you or I might be but because He greived at the hardness of their heart.

They were the epitome of religious bigotry.

The sad part is Jesus loved them, as He does with all sinners, and they with their bitter hatred continued their persecution.

 

Please show me the up side of all this-where were the compliments and agreements in scripture?

.

Edited November 15, 2013 by fruitfull77