One Way Love: An Antidote to Legalism?

[Sevenseas]

 

 

 

I mean, if you read that adulterers won't inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, if you are a womanizer, you might get scared and stop cheating?  We can't have that.  That would be legalism, and performance based salvation.  You might have a drunk who reads about how drunkards won't inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.  They might get scared and stop drinking? 

 

 

Nope.  Fear is not an impediment to sin.  I know sinners who understand that they are going to hell, but that realization doesn’t serve as any kind of motivation to stop sinning.  The love sin more than they love the truth.  They know the truth and they understand that their eternal future is at stake, but they have rejected the truth because sin is more attractive.

 

 

 

 

So you're saying that all sinners have no fear of eternal damnation. I find that hard to believe. Especially since the bible teaches just the opposite. 

 

I don't believe that either Man.  I had someone try to break into my house a couple of years ago, but I had an alarm system in place.  They wanted to rob me, but when the alarm went off, the fear of going to jail caused them to flee.  I don't care why they failed to steal from me, but just that they failed.  Their heart wasn't my concern, but the security of my possessions.  There are many people that don't steal because they know it is wrong and they won't do it for that reason alone, but there are others who would steal if it wasn't for the threat of prison. 

 

 

 

hmmmm.......so, do you suppose that thief never ever broke into another house?  Because YOUR alarm went off?  I seriously doubt that LOL!

 

At any rate, I think it was quite a stretch to assume Shiloh said any such thing as has been indicated by man.  But I cannot actually speak for man of course;

I can only state what I perceive as a rabbit trail that goes off somewhere and does not deal with the actual op 

[Guest Butero]

 

 

 

 

 I think there are genuine believers who do pretty bad things. There's an example in 1 Cor 5

 

1 cor 5:1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father’s wife.

 

This sounds pretty bad.

 

1 cor 5:5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

 

I think there are likely a couple different ways to view this, but it seems clear that the church won't tolerate his presence among them while he is engaging in this particular sin. Alright. Note, nowhere did Paul say he wasn't a believer (the intervening verses do not suggest this). But the second thing is Paul's admonishment to cash him out for 'the destruction of the flesh' and there is the *expectation* that he will be saved, despite engaging in sexual relations with his father's wife. He is punished in the flesh, sure, but still saved.

 

The thing about these passages is, Paul explicitly condemns and mourns the actions of this man. He nowhere minimizes the sinfulness or seriousness of this- but also nowhere does he say that "oh well I guess he's not really a believer". It's serious, it sounds like this person likely suffered terrible consequences, but it also sounds like he was saved.

But given the fact Paul says that adulterers will not inherit the Kingdom of God, he has already condemned them to hell if they fail to repent.  I believe he is saying that by putting them out of the church, the hope is they will eventually return to the Lord and ultimately be saved.  I don't believe he is saying they will get to heaven while still in adultery, or he would have contradicted 1 Corinthians 6:9.

 

hbr 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

 

For all time, those who are *being* sanctified *are* perfected. If you are ever 'started' in the process of sanctification then it's a done deal according to this verse- "for all time". From this perspective 1 cor 6:

 

1 cor 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

 

Once this is started it cannot be undone. God will finish you, according to Hebrews 10:14 it is in fact a done deal, done for all time.

 

Then you come back full circle.  If he is speaking in past tense, Christians don't behave like this, so were the adulterers really saved? 

 

Yes. Look at hebrews 10:14 again. Who are are *being* sanctified- present- have already been perfected ("had perfected for all time"). Sanctification I gather then is a process "being" done, which if it is being done, is also completed to God.

 

We do grow in grace over time.  We are not perfect overnight, but that still doesn't change the fact that certain sins will keep us out of heaven.  That still means we have to be concerned about not breaking certain laws. 

[Guest Butero]

 

 

 

 

I mean, if you read that adulterers won't inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, if you are a womanizer, you might get scared and stop cheating?  We can't have that.  That would be legalism, and performance based salvation.  You might have a drunk who reads about how drunkards won't inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.  They might get scared and stop drinking? 

 

 

Nope.  Fear is not an impediment to sin.  I know sinners who understand that they are going to hell, but that realization doesn’t serve as any kind of motivation to stop sinning.  The love sin more than they love the truth.  They know the truth and they understand that their eternal future is at stake, but they have rejected the truth because sin is more attractive.

 

 

 

 

So you're saying that all sinners have no fear of eternal damnation. I find that hard to believe. Especially since the bible teaches just the opposite. 

 

I don't believe that either Man.  I had someone try to break into my house a couple of years ago, but I had an alarm system in place.  They wanted to rob me, but when the alarm went off, the fear of going to jail caused them to flee.  I don't care why they failed to steal from me, but just that they failed.  Their heart wasn't my concern, but the security of my possessions.  There are many people that don't steal because they know it is wrong and they won't do it for that reason alone, but there are others who would steal if it wasn't for the threat of prison. 

 

 

 

hmmmm.......so, do you suppose that thief never ever broke into another house?  Because YOUR alarm went off?  I seriously doubt that LOL!

 

At any rate, I think it was quite a stretch to assume Shiloh said any such thing as has been indicated by man.  But I cannot actually speak for him of course;

I can only state what I perceive as a possible attemtp to sidetrack by misquoting.  Possible.

 

He wasn't able to steal anything. 

[alphaparticle]

 

 

 

 

 

 I think there are genuine believers who do pretty bad things. There's an example in 1 Cor 5

 

1 cor 5:1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father’s wife.

 

This sounds pretty bad.

 

1 cor 5:5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

 

I think there are likely a couple different ways to view this, but it seems clear that the church won't tolerate his presence among them while he is engaging in this particular sin. Alright. Note, nowhere did Paul say he wasn't a believer (the intervening verses do not suggest this). But the second thing is Paul's admonishment to cash him out for 'the destruction of the flesh' and there is the *expectation* that he will be saved, despite engaging in sexual relations with his father's wife. He is punished in the flesh, sure, but still saved.

 

The thing about these passages is, Paul explicitly condemns and mourns the actions of this man. He nowhere minimizes the sinfulness or seriousness of this- but also nowhere does he say that "oh well I guess he's not really a believer". It's serious, it sounds like this person likely suffered terrible consequences, but it also sounds like he was saved.

But given the fact Paul says that adulterers will not inherit the Kingdom of God, he has already condemned them to hell if they fail to repent.  I believe he is saying that by putting them out of the church, the hope is they will eventually return to the Lord and ultimately be saved.  I don't believe he is saying they will get to heaven while still in adultery, or he would have contradicted 1 Corinthians 6:9.

 

hbr 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

 

For all time, those who are *being* sanctified *are* perfected. If you are ever 'started' in the process of sanctification then it's a done deal according to this verse- "for all time". From this perspective 1 cor 6:

 

1 cor 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

 

Once this is started it cannot be undone. God will finish you, according to Hebrews 10:14 it is in fact a done deal, done for all time.

 

Then you come back full circle.  If he is speaking in past tense, Christians don't behave like this, so were the adulterers really saved? 

 

Yes. Look at hebrews 10:14 again. Who are are *being* sanctified- present- have already been perfected ("had perfected for all time"). Sanctification I gather then is a process "being" done, which if it is being done, is also completed to God.

 

We do grow in grace over time.  We are not perfect overnight, but that still doesn't change the fact that certain sins will keep us out of heaven.  That still means we have to be concerned about not breaking certain laws. 

 

But that simply is not in the verse. If God starts the process of sanctification in you, so that you are *being* sanctified, then that process just *is* perfected, it's done. You can't make what was done "for all time" undone through sinful acts.

[Sevenseas]

The problem with trying to define legalism is that legalism isnt a biblical term.  There is no word for it in the Bible.  What the Bible teaches that no one is saved by good works. There is nothing redemptive about good works.  Our good works will be rewarded but they don't offer any insurance against hell.  There appears that some people are taking what Paul is saying about rewards for service and confusing them with salvation which is a free gift and has absolutely nothing to do with good works in terms of how salvation is obtained or how it is kept.

 

 

Just so.  I understand legalism to be, in part, ADDING to the work of Christ on the cross...which was perfect and complete.

[Guest Butero]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 I think there are genuine believers who do pretty bad things. There's an example in 1 Cor 5

 

1 cor 5:1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father’s wife.

 

This sounds pretty bad.

 

1 cor 5:5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

 

I think there are likely a couple different ways to view this, but it seems clear that the church won't tolerate his presence among them while he is engaging in this particular sin. Alright. Note, nowhere did Paul say he wasn't a believer (the intervening verses do not suggest this). But the second thing is Paul's admonishment to cash him out for 'the destruction of the flesh' and there is the *expectation* that he will be saved, despite engaging in sexual relations with his father's wife. He is punished in the flesh, sure, but still saved.

 

The thing about these passages is, Paul explicitly condemns and mourns the actions of this man. He nowhere minimizes the sinfulness or seriousness of this- but also nowhere does he say that "oh well I guess he's not really a believer". It's serious, it sounds like this person likely suffered terrible consequences, but it also sounds like he was saved.

But given the fact Paul says that adulterers will not inherit the Kingdom of God, he has already condemned them to hell if they fail to repent.  I believe he is saying that by putting them out of the church, the hope is they will eventually return to the Lord and ultimately be saved.  I don't believe he is saying they will get to heaven while still in adultery, or he would have contradicted 1 Corinthians 6:9.

 

hbr 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

 

For all time, those who are *being* sanctified *are* perfected. If you are ever 'started' in the process of sanctification then it's a done deal according to this verse- "for all time". From this perspective 1 cor 6:

 

1 cor 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

 

Once this is started it cannot be undone. God will finish you, according to Hebrews 10:14 it is in fact a done deal, done for all time.

 

Then you come back full circle.  If he is speaking in past tense, Christians don't behave like this, so were the adulterers really saved? 

 

Yes. Look at hebrews 10:14 again. Who are are *being* sanctified- present- have already been perfected ("had perfected for all time"). Sanctification I gather then is a process "being" done, which if it is being done, is also completed to God.

 

We do grow in grace over time.  We are not perfect overnight, but that still doesn't change the fact that certain sins will keep us out of heaven.  That still means we have to be concerned about not breaking certain laws. 

 

But that simply is not in the verse. If God starts the process of sanctification in you, so that you are *being* sanctified, then that process just *is* perfected, it's done. You can't make what was done "for all time" undone through sinful acts.

 

Then you were never saved, because the Bible makes it clear that those who practice those kind of sins did so in the past.  "Such were some of you." 

[alphaparticle]

Then you were never saved, because the Bible makes it clear that those who practice those kind of sins did so in the past.  "Such were some of you." 

 

 

Rev 2:20 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols

 

Notice the language here. Jezebel has caused these people do sins on the aforementioned list, but they are still referred to as "My servants".

[Guest Butero]

 

Rev 2:20 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols

 

Notice the language here. Jezebel has caused these people do sins on the aforementioned list, but they are still referred to as "My servants".

 

It doesn't say they remain his servants.  Lets suppose you have a minister of a church, and a woman seduces him.  That man would be referred to as the Lord's servant, and the woman as being guilty of seducing him. 

 

Regardless, that doesn't change the fact that scripture plainly says certain sins will keep us out of heaven, and nobody has been able to refute that. 

[Qnts2]

 

The problem with trying to define legalism is that legalism isnt a biblical term.  There is no word for it in the Bible.  What the Bible teaches that no one is saved by good works. There is nothing redemptive about good works.  Our good works will be rewarded but they don't offer any insurance against hell.  There appears that some people are taking what Paul is saying about rewards for service and confusing them with salvation which is a free gift and has absolutely nothing to do with good works in terms of how salvation is obtained or how it is kept.

 

 

Just so.  I understand legalism to be, in part, ADDING to the work of Christ on the cross...which was perfect and complete.

 

 

I am answering both shiloh and seven.

 

I would say the legalism is adding to the work of Jesus on the cross, plus more.

 

Let me start with love. Does our good works cause God to love us more or less?  I think the answer is God's love is not changed by our works. While we were enemies, God loved us. When we were saved, God already knew everything we would do and think.

 

Now, here is possibly the more difficult questions. As believers, we please God because of Jesus work on the cross. Does our work make us less or more pleasing to God? I do not believe so. God wants better for us as we grow, but in that growth process, we have not yet arrived. Is God less pleased by a 'baby' Christian then a mature Christian? My answer is no.

 

Now for rewards. Or crowns. There first is the crown of salvation. We do nothing to earn that crown.    

 

2. Scripture says our own righteousness is as filthy rags. Our righteousness comes from Jesus. There is a crown of righteousness, but again, that crown is actually based on the work of Jesus.     

 

1 Tim 4:8 Finally, there is laid up for me the CROWN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing

 

 Who will love His appearing? All who are His.

 

3.   We who were dead in sin, upon salvation, receive life. Jesus came to give us life.

 

James 1:12 God blesses those who Patiently endure Testing and Temptation. Afterward they will receive the CROWN OF LIFE that God has promised to those who love Him

 

 

There might be more crowns, but what I have noticed is that every crown we receive, we can ultimately realize that the actual 'work' done to receive these crowns is actually work done by Jesus. When we are in heaven, we will see the 24 elders cast their crown at Jesus feet.

 

Rev 4:10 the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

¹¹ “Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.”

 

My personal belief, sometimes we think of our work for God, and I think fail to see that what we have done which is 'heavenly good', was actually done by Him thru us or allowing us to participate. He actually did the work. I think we will see that ever more clearly when we get to heaven, and because of that full realization, we will caste our crowns at His feet because He actually did the work to earn them. He deserves the honor and glory.

[Guest Butero]

I started to address legalism, but even Shiloh acknowledges it is not a Biblical term, so why should I care what different people think it means?  It is just a term people created to attack anyone that comes against something they are doing.  It is a way of silencing those who speak against sin.