Why you don't go to church.

[Guest DRS81]

All of the epistles were written to the church, so it was written to believers.  The man that turned back to his sins wasn't pre-destined to remain saved.

 

I just learned recently that the words chosen/elect/predistination in the Bible refers to the condition of the believer AFTER salvation. (Rom 8:29/Eph 1:5/Eph 1:11-12) However, how they get to salvation is through faith and accepting Jesus into their hearts (through implanted faith from God?). The man that turned back wasn't pre-destined correct, but how did the pre-destined believer become a believer. Your thoughts on Eph 2:8....(Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God.) Who's faith? Well, let's see. This says it's not of our faith, but faith implanted in us BY God...If Calvinism is true, then why are there scriptures about taking heed and repenting? If Calvinism is true, then why do fellow christians pray for their family members to be saved?

 

through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/ephesians-2-8.html

salvation is through faith, not as a cause or condition of salvation, or as what adds anything to the blessing itself; but it is the way, or means, or instrument, which God has appointed, for the receiving and enjoying it, that so it might appear to be all of grace; and this faith is not the produce of man's free will and power, but it is the free gift of God; and therefore salvation through it is consistent with salvation by grace; since that itself is of grace, lies entirely in receiving grace and gives all the glory to the grace of God: the sense of this last clause may be, that salvation is not of ourselves; it is not of our desiring nor of our deserving, nor of our performing, but is of the free grace of God: though faith is elsewhere represented as the gift of God, ( John 6:65 ) ( Philippians 1:29 ) and it is called the special gift of faith, in the Apocrypha:

    ``And blessed is the eunuch, which with his hands hath wrought no iniquity, nor imagined wicked things against God: for unto him shall be given the "special gift of faith", and an inheritance in the temple of the Lord more acceptable to his mind.'' (Wisdom 3:14)

----- (I asked the following question from a Greek and Hebrew professor:

    ``In this verse, to what does the word "that" refer to? Adam Clarke, Wesley & company say that it is neuter plural and "Faith" is feminine hence it cannot refer to faith, (Such an admission would destroy their theological system.) However "Grace" is also feminine as is "Salvation".''

His reply was:

    ``Here you ask a wonderful theological/exegetical question to which I can only give an opinion, and not a definitive answer. The problem is that there is NO precise referent. Grace is feminine. Faith is feminine. And even Salvation (as a noun) is feminine. Yet it must be one of these three at least, and maybe more than one, or all three in conjunction. Since all three come from God and not from man, the latter might seem the more likely. However, it is a tautology to say salvation and grace are "nor of yourselves," and in that case it certainly looks more like the passage is really pointing out that man cannot even take credit for his own act of faith, but that faith was itself created by God and implanted in us that we might believe (i.e. the normal Calvinistic position). In which regard the whole theological issue of "regeneration preceding faith" comes into play. So, that is basically my opinion, though others obviously disagree strenuously, but from an exegetical standpoint, the other positions have to explain away the matter of the tautology.''

Whether you accept the reply or not, it is sufficient to show that the Greek is not as definitive in this verse as some scholars would have you believe. Editor)

[Guest Butero]

I was just reading your last Post DRS81, and I am not sure exactly what you are trying to say.  I do believe that if we have faith to get saved, it is only because God gave us that faith, which is exactly what it appears you are saying.  In that sense, nobody can really claim to have any part in their salvation, because God gave us the ability to believe.  I do believe in pre-destination, but I don't agree with a lot of the things Calvin taught.  There is a thread on Calvanism where someone took the time to explain all of his beliefs, and they are not mine.  At the same time, I do believe that if we do get saved, it is because we were pre-destined of God to get saved.  It was his will from the beginning. 

 

The question you ask is over our actions, and why we are told to repent and why we bother to pray for our family members.  You could just as easily ask why we go through the motions of any religious activity.  God tells us what he desires from us.  The Bible instructs us.  The preachers and teachers are sent to instruct us.  The prophets are sent to warn us.  At the same time, what we do as an individual is already determined, but since we know the right way, at the judgment, we will be without excuse, because we knew the right way.  Jesus told Peter that he was going to deny him, and though Peter denied he would ever do such a thing, it was pre-destined to happen.  There was really nothing Peter could do about it, but when it happened, he remembered the words of the Lord.  God knew everything we would do before he fashioned us, yet he still made everyone, both good and bad.  He could just as easily have created everyone good from the start, and someone he knew would accept Christ from the start, because he knows the ending as well as the beginning. 

 

We speak of God being all knowing, but we don't realize just what that means.  Since he is also the creator, if he knows that one of the men he fashions will be Billy Graham, a faithful minister, and a woman he fashions will be Madeline O'Haire, an atheist and enemy of God till her death, didn't he create one vessel of honor and one of dishonor?  He could have easily put the atheist back on the potter's wheel and fashioned her in a way where she would be a Christian, but he didn't.  We are whoever God made us to be.  The only thing I have in common with Calvin is a belief in pre-destination and election, but I don't share his entire belief system.  The conclusions I came to on this subject were the result of years of Bible study, and noticing just how involved God is in his creation. 

[Guest DRS81]

At the same time, I do believe that if we do get saved, it is because we were pre-destined of God to get saved.  It was his will from the beginning.

 

I think you might be using the word predestination the wrong way. Predestination is not referring to God BEFORE salvation, it's referring to God and the believer AFTER salvation.

[Reformed Baptist]

wow - lots of people here who don't go to church, I really wonder at that! I know no church is perfect, they all have their problems, yet they are (by definition) gatherings of people who are saved by the same Lord Jesus as you, indwelt by the same Holy Spirit and who one day you will be sharing the same heaven with - how can anyone who has that in common not want to spend time with each other in real fellowship? 

 

Brothers and sisters, I do not mean to be rude, but the scriptures command that we do not forsake the assembling of ourselves together (Heb 10:25), Paul declares that we must not be separating ourselves from the local body of believers (1 Cor 12:25) - i wonder what Christ Jesus really thinks of those who do not consider his other blood children worthy of their company? I am glad he did not look upon us in that way but that instead he made himself of no reputation...

[Guest Butero]

 

At the same time, I do believe that if we do get saved, it is because we were pre-destined of God to get saved.  It was his will from the beginning.

 

I think you might be using the word predestination the wrong way. Predestination is not referring to God BEFORE salvation, it's referring to God and the believer AFTER salvation.

 

I don't think it makes any difference.  You can be just as easily pre-destined lost as a Christian.  Judas Iscariot was pre-destined to be the betrayer of the Lord, and there is no indication he ever truly belonged to God.  I don't know where you "learned" pre-destination has to be after someone is saved, but I don't agree with that.  There are a lot of different opinions out there about pre-destination and what it means. 

[Guest DRS81]

 

 

At the same time, I do believe that if we do get saved, it is because we were pre-destined of God to get saved.  It was his will from the beginning.

 

I think you might be using the word predestination the wrong way. Predestination is not referring to God BEFORE salvation, it's referring to God and the believer AFTER salvation.

 

I don't think it makes any difference.  You can be just as easily pre-destined lost as a Christian.  Judas Iscariot was pre-destined to be the betrayer of the Lord, and there is no indication he ever truly belonged to God.  I don't know where you "learned" pre-destination has to be after someone is saved, but I don't agree with that.  There are a lot of different opinions out there about pre-destination and what it means. 

 

 

Then why do christians preach and pray for people's salvation if God already destined them to hell. (for example, pick out one of your family members)

[Guest Butero]

wow - lots of people here who don't go to church, I really wonder at that! I know no church is perfect, they all have their problems, yet they are (by definition) gatherings of people who are saved by the same Lord Jesus as you, indwelt by the same Holy Spirit and who one day you will be sharing the same heaven with - how can anyone who has that in common not want to spend time with each other in real fellowship? 

 

Brothers and sisters, I do not mean to be rude, but the scriptures command that we do not forsake the assembling of ourselves together (Heb 10:25), Paul declares that we must not be separating ourselves from the local body of believers (1 Cor 12:25) - i wonder what Christ Jesus really thinks of those who do not consider his other blood children worthy of their company? I am glad he did not look upon us in that way but that instead he made himself of no reputation...

First of all, not forsaking the assembling of yourself can mean something besides going to church.  There are believers who assemble at WB all the time.  That is an interesting scripture you referenced from 1 Corinthians 12:25.  Lets examine that.

 

That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 

 

All that is talking about in context is how everyone has a part to play in the body of Christ, whether it be the Pastor or the usher.  In other words, everyone has value, and even if you consider your part less important than someone else's part, Paul is just reminding us that everyone is needed.  The person who cleans the church is valuable, and essential, even as the Sunday School teacher is important.  He likens this to the different parts of the natural body.  It is quite a stretch to call that a commandment to remain part of "the local body of believers."  Which local body?  In my community, we have churches everywhere, and many came about through splits. 

 

You can actually apply that verse here.  Different people feel compelled to participate in different things.  There are some that spend nearly all their time in chat, and they have a chance to minister to people those in the forums never meet.  Some spend time in the Outer Court.  Some spend time in the prayer sections or in the advise areas.  In other words, different people play a different role, so if I use that scripture and apply it to WB, the meaning is that we should look at everyone as a valuable member of the Worthy body. 

[Spock]

wow - lots of people here who don't go to church, I really wonder at that! I know no church is perfect, they all have their problems, yet they are (by definition) gatherings of people who are saved by the same Lord Jesus as you, indwelt by the same Holy Spirit and who one day you will be sharing the same heaven with - how can anyone who has that in common not want to spend time with each other in real fellowship? 

 

Brothers and sisters, I do not mean to be rude, but the scriptures command that we do not forsake the assembling of ourselves together (Heb 10:25), Paul declares that we must not be separating ourselves from the local body of believers (1 Cor 12:25) - i wonder what Christ Jesus really thinks of those who do not consider his other blood children worthy of their company? I am glad he did not look upon us in that way but that instead he made himself of no reputation...

First of all, not forsaking the assembling of yourself can mean something besides going to church.  There are believers who assemble at WB all the time.  That is an interesting scripture you referenced from 1 Corinthians 12:25.  Lets examine that.

 

That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 

 

All that is talking about in context is how everyone has a part to play in the body of Christ, whether it be the Pastor or the usher.  In other words, everyone has value, and even if you consider your part less important than someone else's part, Paul is just reminding us that everyone is needed.  The person who cleans the church is valuable, and essential, even as the Sunday School teacher is important.  He likens this to the different parts of the natural body.  It is quite a stretch to call that a commandment to remain part of "the local body of believers."  Which local body?  In my community, we have churches everywhere, and many came about through splits. 

 

You can actually apply that verse here.  Different people feel compelled to participate in different things.  There are some that spend nearly all their time in chat, and they have a chance to minister to people those in the forums never meet.  Some spend time in the Outer Court.  Some spend time in the prayer sections or in the advise areas.  In other words, different people play a different role, so if I use that scripture and apply it to WB, the meaning is that we should look at everyone as a valuable member of the Worthy body.

Here here. I vote for this post (haven't read them all, but this one says my thoughts).

Adding a few more thoughts-

My wife and I occasionally go to church but not regularly. Our day of worship is on Saturday, so there aren't that many options available to begin with. We go to celebrate all the Feasts of The Lord pursuant to Leviticus 23.

In addition, many of my colleagues at work are believers who I love to fellowship with. Occasionally, we invite some believers over to fellowship at our home. And then there is this place. So, you can't say I'm forsaking fellowship.

[Guest Butero]

 

 

 

At the same time, I do believe that if we do get saved, it is because we were pre-destined of God to get saved.  It was his will from the beginning.

 

I think you might be using the word predestination the wrong way. Predestination is not referring to God BEFORE salvation, it's referring to God and the believer AFTER salvation.

 

I don't think it makes any difference.  You can be just as easily pre-destined lost as a Christian.  Judas Iscariot was pre-destined to be the betrayer of the Lord, and there is no indication he ever truly belonged to God.  I don't know where you "learned" pre-destination has to be after someone is saved, but I don't agree with that.  There are a lot of different opinions out there about pre-destination and what it means. 

 

 

Then why do people preach and pray for people's salvation if God already destined them to hell. (for example, pick out one of your family members)

 

That is an interesting question.  I once had a Pastor that believed that those people that had never heard of Jesus would not go to hell, even though the Bible says the only name under heaven by which we must be saved is Jesus.  I asked him why do we send missionaries to them, because using his belief system, we are going to cause more to be lost than saved.  When they are presented with a choice, they become accountable.  He just said because God said to. 

 

The Bible tells us that if we pray for anything according to God's will it will be granted us.  Have you ever prayed for someone that never got saved?  Have you ever prayed for someone that did get saved?  God tells us to pray for each other, but he never guarantees the outcome of those prayers, unless it is according to his will.  I believe that if it is the will of God someone gets saved, it is going to happen whether we pray for them or not, but if God impresses it on our heart to pray for them, perhaps it is because he is going to save them.  Your prayer question really doesn't prove anything one way or the other.  It is just a question based on your personal reasoning, but it doesn't prove anything with regard to pre-destination. 

 

I could ask all kinds of questions right now like, how come God doesn't save everyone if it is his will everyone get saved?  How come God doesn't put everyone in a part of the world where they will hear the gospel, and at least know the way of salvation?  If my former Pastor is right, why send missionaries to the world, when it will only make people accountable, meaning more will be lost than saved?  Why doesn't everyone have the same amount of years on earth to have an equal chance to get saved?  There are endless questions I could ask, but none of them prove anything.  They are based on man's wisdom, and God's ways are higher than man's ways. 

[Guest DRS81]

I don't know where you "learned" pre-destination has to be after someone is saved, but I don't agree with that....

 

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