The rapture: fact or mystery?

[Spock]

I think the Beast will have killed most of us off before Gods wrath starts.... There's the 144,000 that are sealed from the different tribes, but I blew being part of that when I was about 16.... My best bet is just to either be a good slave, or die with grace.... dieing doesn't really bother me other than I'm really not into pain...

We'll see... speaking of seeing, wouldn't it be interesting to see the look on the Antichrist and False Prophet's faces when Jesus shouts out and appears in the clouds.

Well, before the beast comes into my house to kill me, I hope I bring ten bad guys down before that happens.

All that target practice at the range may finally pay off for me. (I know this sounds morbid and I apologize for this, but I just can't let bad people walk into my house without a fight. I figure if God allows them to come in, he's testing me to see what game I got! Lol)

Spock going in the corner

Well make sure they have the mark. Don't send someone to hell that doesn't have to go.

Hmmmm, let me see.

While these bad guys are shooting at me should I just yell out, " hey did you guys take the mark of the beast?" Or should I knock them down first and look at their wrists before I shoot them?

You know I'm just playing here so don't misconstrue my words, although I am trying to figure how I can do what you said without getting my brains blown out. (I do have a two year old here that I will do all I can to protect, so I will be honest friend, if it is them or this precious little one, need I tell you who I care about first?)

[Izzel]

 

 

Rev. 1:5-6 To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father---

Rev. 4:4 Around the throne were 24 thrones, and on the thrones I saw 24 elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads.

Rev. 5:9b-10 For You were slain and have redeemed us to God by your blood out of every tribe and nation, and have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on earth. NKJV

The 24 elders were Christians--only Christians, saved by the blood of Christ, were made both kings and priests to serve the Father.

I believe that the seals then began the great tribulation and the one on the white horse was a false Christ or antichrist. Under the fifth seal was the SOULS of the martyrs. 5:11 then white robes were given to them and they were told to wait a little longer till the number of their brethern, who would be killed as they were, was completed. The sixth seal starts THE WRATH OF GOD Rev.6:12--the earthquakes, the sun became black, the moon as blood, the stars fell to the earth. v.15b fall on us and hide us from Him that sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

Christians were to pray that they be counted worthy to escape the wrath of God.

Luke 21: 25-27 recounts the same signs in the sun moon and stars and states v28 Now when these things BEGIN to happen, look up and lift us your heads, because your redemption draws near. V.36 watch therefore, and pray always that you may be COUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS THAT WILL COME TO PASS, AND TO STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN.

1 Thess 1:10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even JESUS WHO DELIVERS US FROM THE WRATH TO COME.

1 Thess 5:9-10 For GOD DID NOT APPOINT US TO WRATH, BUT TO OBTAIN SALVATION THROUGH OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, who died for us that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. NKJV

2 Thess 2:1 NASV with regard to 1. the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and 2. our gathering together to Him, 3b it will not come unless the APOSTASY come first, and the MAN OF LAWLESSNESS IS REVEALED. NASV

(---v.4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. v.9 That is the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all deception of wickedness FOR THOSE WHO PERISH, because THEY DID NOT RECEIVE THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH SO AS TO BE SAVED.)

From this point on the 144,000 Jews are sealed of the 12 tribes of Israel. They must go through the trib but are sealed and protected by God.--probably sealed as we are with the seal of the Holy Spirit.

But seen in heaven are 7:9 a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the Throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes with palm branches in their hands,

THIS IS THE CHURCH IN HEAVEN.

7:14 THESE ARE ONES WHO COME OUT OF GREAT TRIBULATION AND HAVE WASHED THEIR ROBES AND MADE THEM WHITE IN THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB.. NASV.

So in Rev. 4 we see the 24 elders who are Christians in heaven prior to the tribulation.

But we don't see the greatest part of the church already in heaven till the very beginning of the wrath. They came OUT OF THE GREAT TRIB. We are preserved from the wrath for sure, A portion of the Jews will be preserved while going through the wrath.

The letters to the churches promises to those who overcome:

Some will overcome and eat of the tree of life.

Some will have trib for 10 days but will receive the crown of life.

Some will be given hidden manna, a white stone and a new name.

Some will receive authority over the nations.

Some He will confess before His Father

Some He will keep from the hour of testing which will come on the whole earth and will be made a piller in the temple of God in the new Jeruselem.

Some will be granted to sit with Christ on His throne.

My churches have taught pre-trib. I see only a promise that the faithful will not endure the wrath. But we are to pray that we are counted worthy to escape ALL THESE THINGS, which probably includes the first part of the great trib as well.

Perhaps some will be caught up pre-trib as in the 24 elders and the church at Philadelphia. But many Christians have been martyred and many more shall be during the great trib. The wrath was not intended for faithful Christians. It was intended for those who have rejected Christ and the truth.

At the end of the wrath Christ shall return with His Saints, the church, to fight the antichrist with the sword of His mouth. Rev. 19:14 1 Thess 3:13

Who is a saint ?

A saint is anyone who is set apart from the world to God. They are living, because Paul usually addresses his letters to the saints at a town or to those who are called to be saints. When we fully surrender our lives to Christ and live for Him, Christians are called saints. It has nothing to do with the Roman Catholic or Orthodox churches that award the title to dead people.

 

A saint is a christian as well as an holy angel thus when it says Jesus come with His saints it is the angels and when it says He comes for His saints it is man 

[gfellowships]

we must be ready to suffer persecution. If we are not ready for tribulation then that will be dangerous. God is able to save us out of great trials or also preserve us in the midst of great tribulation.  There will be many martyrdoms in the end times world-wide.

[other one]

we must be ready to suffer persecution. If we are not ready for tribulation then that will be dangerous. God is able to save us out of great trials or also preserve us in the midst of great tribulation.  There will be many martyrdoms in the end times world-wide.

I don't mean to be critical, but to tell me that God is able to preserve us in the midst of great tribulation in one sentence and then tell me that there will be many martyrdoms kind of sounds like you are at odds with yourself.  It doesn't help me to understand what you're saying.

[Willa]

Izzel, perhaps you can find other places in the Bible where angels are riding horses? I would be interested. It seems they would be unnecessary for angels. The Bride of Christ had just been discribed as having white robes bright and clean and this is repeated of those riding white horses, and the throught is carried throughout Rev. as well. A few verses later an angel is called an angel. I am not dogmatic about this but neither am I convinced otherwise. Thank you.

Blessings,

Willa

[Spock]

Izzel, perhaps you can find other places in the Bible where angels are riding horses? I would be interested. It seems they would be unnecessary for angels. The Bride of Christ had just been discribed as having white robes bright and clean and this is repeated of those riding white horses, and the throught is carried throughout Rev. as well. A few verses later an angel is called an angel. I am not dogmatic about this but neither am I convinced otherwise. Thank you.

Blessings,

Willa

I agree with you on this Willa.

In addition, I spent a lot of time and money on learning how to ride a horse knowing that I would have to one day come from Heaven to earth on one. Lol

[OldSchool2]

Izzel, perhaps you can find other places in the Bible where angels are riding horses? I would be interested. It seems they would be unnecessary for angels. The Bride of Christ had just been discribed as having white robes bright and clean and this is repeated of those riding white horses, and the throught is carried throughout Rev. as well. A few verses later an angel is called an angel. I am not dogmatic about this but neither am I convinced otherwise. Thank you.

Blessings,

Willa

I agree with you on this Willa.

In addition, I spent a lot of time and money on learning how to ride a horse ...

Because "They're dangerous at both ends and crafty in the middle"?

Read more at http://www.hitfix.com/articles/watch-a-whopping-9-new-clips-from-sherlock-holmes-a-game-of-shadows#plLLao78z560AJKj.99

[rollinTHUNDER]

Revelations 13:6-9

 

⁶ And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

⁷ And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

⁸ And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

⁹ If any man have an ear, let him hear.

 

according to this and many other scriptures "the saints" will be here for the tribulation.  which means the "rapture" wont be "pre-trib"  Study revelations.  pay attention to the letters to the 7 churches in asia which shows the saints will be hear and pay attention in every one of the seven letters four things are discussed. 1) a commendation 2) a fault against their "works" 3)instructions to repent or keep the faith and 4)a reward.   and in revelations study time line or chronilogical order in events dealing with "the seals"  and "the trumpets" as well as chronilogical order in matt 24 and mark 13 and luke 21 (God will establish his word in the mouth of two or three witnesses)  In every chapter of the three gospels I refrence the order of events is the same.  there is no varience.  and the second coming does not happen before the tribulation.  In matt it says immediatly after the tribulation of those days is when Christ returns.  watch for words like "and then" "after" and other words to indicate a time line. 

I have heard there are scriptures to back up all views weather it be pre, mid, or post trib second coming.  I have been able to thru studying the word only, (no teachings no sermons) disprove everysingle scripture concerning pre trib view.

Hi Cletus and welcome to worthy.

 

I too, am opposed to the pre-trib view, but we should be careful not to assume that "saints" is referring to the Church and/or bride.  It appears that these saints in verse 7 that are overcome will be martyrs, or won't be ready when the Son of man appears.  I believe this is referring to the hour of trial that will come upon the whole world to test those who dwell on the earth.  Those who are ready will escape (rapture), as the tribulation of those days will be cut short for the sake of the elect.  Did you catch what it said in verse 6?  The beast blasphemes God and His tabernacle, but who are those that dwell in heaven?  It appears that the rescue will be much like it was in the days of Noah, just days ahead of God's wrath, not years before. 

 

Cheers 

[Spock]

Revelations 13:6-9

 ⁶ And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.⁷ And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.⁸ And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.⁹ If any man have an ear, let him hear.

 

according to this and many other scriptures "the saints" will be here for the tribulation.  which means the "rapture" wont be "pre-trib"  Study revelations.  pay attention to the letters to the 7 churches in asia which shows the saints will be hear and pay attention in every one of the seven letters four things are discussed. 1) a commendation 2) a fault against their "works" 3)instructions to repent or keep the faith and 4)a reward.   and in revelations study time line or chronilogical order in events dealing with "the seals"  and "the trumpets" as well as chronilogical order in matt 24 and mark 13 and luke 21 (God will establish his word in the mouth of two or three witnesses)  In every chapter of the three gospels I refrence the order of events is the same.  there is no varience.  and the second coming does not happen before the tribulation.  In matt it says immediatly after the tribulation of those days is when Christ returns.  watch for words like "and then" "after" and other words to indicate a time line. 

I have heard there are scriptures to back up all views weather it be pre, mid, or post trib second coming.  I have been able to thru studying the word only, (no teachings no sermons) disprove everysingle scripture concerning pre trib view.

Hi Cletus and welcome to worthy.

 

I too, am opposed to the pre-trib view, but we should be careful not to assume that "saints" is referring to the Church and/or bride.  It appears that these saints in verse 7 that are overcome will be martyrs, or won't be ready when the Son of man appears.  I believe this is referring to the hour of trial that will come upon the whole world to test those who dwell on the earth.  Those who are ready will escape (rapture), as the tribulation of those days will be cut short for the sake of the elect.  Did you catch what it said in verse 6?  The beast blasphemes God and His tabernacle, but who are those that dwell in heaven?  It appears that the rescue will be much like it was in the days of Noah, just days ahead of God's wrath, not years before. 

 

Cheers

How do you believe one "gets ready" and is able to escape the tribulation?

[Spock]

Revelations 13:6-9

⁶ And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

⁷ And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

⁸ And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

⁹ If any man have an ear, let him hear.

according to this and many other scriptures "the saints" will be here for the tribulation. which means the "rapture" wont be "pre-trib" Study revelations. pay attention to the letters to the 7 churches in asia which shows the saints will be hear and pay attention in every one of the seven letters four things are discussed. 1) a commendation 2) a fault against their "works" 3)instructions to repent or keep the faith and 4)a reward. and in revelations study time line or chronilogical order in events dealing with "the seals" and "the trumpets" as well as chronilogical order in matt 24 and mark 13 and luke 21 (God will establish his word in the mouth of two or three witnesses) In every chapter of the three gospels I refrence the order of events is the same. there is no varience. and the second coming does not happen before the tribulation. In matt it says immediatly after the tribulation of those days is when Christ returns. watch for words like "and then" "after" and other words to indicate a time line.

I have heard there are scriptures to back up all views weather it be pre, mid, or post trib second coming. I have been able to thru studying the word only, (no teachings no sermons) disprove everysingle scripture concerning pre trib view.

How,do you know the "saints" in Rev 13 are not referring to the "tribulation saints" those who come to Christ subsequent to the rapture? Obviously, many people left behind will see what is happening and may not buy into the boasts of the beast and refuse to take the mark.

Is it possible these saints are them? Also, I don't get your point regarding the timeline? The church could be Raptured already, so what does that timeline do to affect the rapture?