THE WORD OF GOD IS IRREVOCABLE

[Guest ninhao]

 

Dakilang Pag-asa, on 02 Dec 2013 - 01:38 AM, said:

 

I just want to point out some errors in your calculations and argument:

Joseph was 30 years old when he came to power in Egypt (Gen 41:46).

After this came the seven years of plenty and the seven years of famine. Joseph then would be 44 years old after this period of time.

The Israelites settled into Egypt during the first years of the famine. Therefore, Joseph would be around 40 when this happened.

 

 

 

 

Hello Dakilang Pag-asa  I don’t think you can make the assumption that the 7 years of famine began immediately after Joseph came to oversee Egypt’s affairs.

 

Gen 41:46-47  Joseph was thirty years old when he entered the service of Pharaoh king of Egypt. And Joseph went out from Pharaoh's presence and traveled throughout Egypt.  (47)  During the seven years of abundance the land produced plentifully.

 

 As you can see we cannot suggest the 7 years of abundance commenced immediately after Jospeph’s promotion although it is possible.

 

 

 

You are insisting that for the first 30 years of their stay in Egypt, the Israelites were treated favorably because of Joseph, and that their slavery began right after Joseph died. According to this timeline then, Joseph would have died when he was only about 70.

Joseph > 40 yrs > arrival of the Israelites in Egypt > good reception

Joseph > 70 yrs > death > start of the slavery

This is what you're saying, right?

However, the Bible says that Joseph died when he was 110 years old, not 70! (Gen 50:26). How then do you explain this?

The only possible answer is that the Israelites received favor from the Egyptians for much more than 30 years!

 

 

 

 

As I said above we cannot say definitively how long after Joseph’s promotion the 7 years of abundance began.

 

 

 

Here's another point: You are wrong in assuming that the slavery of the Israelites began right after Joseph died.

The people of Jacob/Israel was only a tribe when they arrived in Egypt (Gen 46), and it would have taken them more than 70 years -- the entire time that Joseph was alive with them, 110 minus 40 -- for them to have become the multitude that they were when they were enslaved (Exo 1:7), the mighty multitude that the enslaving pharaoh feared. In fact, verses 6 and 7 of the first chapter of Exodus state that even though the generation of Joseph and his brothers had already died, the people of Israel continued to be fruitful, and they increased greatly, and they became mighty.

 

To further solidify my case: The contributions of Joseph to Egypt's history were too great to be easily forgotten. The Bible says that the slavery of the Israelites began only when Joseph's influence was no longer known (Exo 1:8-10).

This then is my own estimate: 70 years of favor for the Israelites while Joseph was still alive, and at least another 70 years of favor while the people increased in number and Joseph's name decreased in influenced. So that is 140 years, at least, of good living in Egypt before the Israelites experienced slavery.

So how then do I reconcile all these with what God had said to Abraham about his decendants being strangers and afflicted servants on a foreign land for four hundred years (Gen 15:13)? I DON'T HAVE TO. And that is because "living good" in Egypt didn't mean that those 400 years of affliction hadn't already started -- it didn't mean that the clock hadn't already begun counting. After all, the Israelites were still strangers there in Egypt, weren't they, foreigners in a strange land? And they were still servants there, weren't they, serving the Pharaoh (Gen 47:3-4)? It's just that their sufferings increased a thousandfold when they were finally enslaved by the Egyptians many years later.

~

 

 

 

In the same vein as the timing of the 2 X 7 years I don’t think we can assume the slavery of the Israelite began immediately after Joseph died.

 

Yes more interesting observations Dakilang Pag-asa  I’ll get back to you once I consider everything you’ve said. I’ll assume you accept the population of the Israelite increased at a yearly rate of at least %10 in the first years in Egypt and the growth was exponential.

 

Thanks for the study

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Jerry,

      However the clock may have ticked at that time,I do not know but I do know that if God said 400yrs,then it was 400yrs...if it was 430,He would have said so...He did say"Know for certain for 400 years......."and that is good enough for me!So,I must agree with ninhao and his conclusions because they are in agreement with Gods Word......the mistreatment & oppression of the Israelites went on for 400 years regardless of what transpired during the other 30 years,if it was of any importance that we know more then God would have told us more about it,.......IMO

                                                                                                                                  With love,in Christ-Kwik

 

Oh,lol-Sorry mJerry,I believe your question was whether or not anyone else believes the pastor to be wrong,I do believe he is wrong in assuming that anyone can change Gods Will............and we "can" remind God of His promises but I don't know about "must".........

[Jerry1023]

Blessings Jerry,

However the clock may have ticked at that time,I do not know but I do know that if God said 400yrs,then it was 400yrs...if it was 430,He would have said so...He did say"Know for certain for 400 years......."and that is good enough for me!So,I must agree with ninhao and his conclusions because they are in agreement with Gods Word......the mistreatment & oppression of the Israelites went on for 400 years regardless of what transpired during the other 30 years,if it was of any importance that we know more then God would have told us more about it,.......IMO

With love,in Christ-Kwik

Oh,lol-Sorry mJerry,I believe your question was whether or not anyone else believes the pastor to be wrong,I do believe he is wrong in assuming that anyone can change Gods Will............and we "can" remind God of His

promises but I don't know about "must".........

God bless you KwiK.we all know that God doesn't make mistake,let all being be a lier,our God is a true living God,he does what pleases him,and he own no body any explanation, i posted this thread base on what a pastor says, God is not the author of confusion,the same bible that says 400 years,also says 430 years,beside that when this agreement was made Abraham was fast asleep,Genesis 15:8-14, I believed if he was awake,he could have interceded as he did to the people of sodom and gomorrah,Genesis 18:17-33" so from my own point of view,400 and 430 years are both biblical, but the exactly years is yet to be seeing in the scripture, base on what ninhao said about the pastor he is wrong that means both of you are wrong,prayers can change God's mind,Abraham interceded for the people of sodom and gomorrah and God was willing to change his mind,when God sentence:king Hezekiah to death,he presented a very good reason to God,why he should not die,my bible tells me that God change his mind,when God wanted to destroyed the children of Israel moses interceded on their behave God change his mind,as a beliver it is good and right for us to remind God his promise to us,God react when we pray,and it is good to pray scripturally,that is praying God word back to him,e.g. O Lord my God,your word says i should call you in times of trouble and you will answer me and deliver me,I love to pray in line with the word of God.

[Dak]

Hey, ninhao. About your suggestion that I cannot assume that the seven years of plenty immediately happened after Joseph's rise to power, well, I can accept that there might have been a few years delay, but not for long. Here's what the Bible says about it:

There will come seven years of great plenty throughout all the land of Egypt, but after them there will arise seven years of famine, and all the plenty will be forgotten in the land of Egypt. The famine will consume the land, and the plenty will be unknown in the land by reason of the famine that will follow, for it will be very severe. And the doubling of Pharaoh's dream means that the thing is fixed by God, and God will shortly bring it about. (Genesis 41:29-32, ESV, emphasis mine)

So you see, the seven years of plenty must have happened very soon after the dream. Besides, you don't think that Joseph would have remained in power if his interpretation of the dream didn't immediately come true, do you?

And just to clarify, so you agree with me that the slavery of the Israelites didn't happen right after Joseph died? Because I didn't make that assumption; you did

And as to the population growth rate, I don't think it would be any good to talk about it because there are no exact figures of their population when the Israelites were enslaved by the Egyptians. All the Bible said is that they increased greatly and filled the land. Besides, there are factors to consider when talking about population growth rate (like living conditions), and we don't know what those factors were during this obscure time in history. So I don't accept anything.

~

[Dak]

...prayers can change God's mind,Abraham interceded for the people of sodom and gomorrah and God was willing to change his mind,when God sentence:king Hezekiah to death,he presented a very good reason to God,why he should not die,my bible tells me that God change his mind,when God wanted to destroyed the children of Israel moses interceded on their behave God change his mind,as a beliver it is good and right for us to remind God his promise to us,God react when we pray,and it is good to pray scripturally,that is praying God word back to him,e.g. O Lord my God,your word says i should call you in times of trouble and you will answer me and deliver me,I love to pray in line with the word of God.

:star: :star:

Five stars for you, Brother

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Brother Jerry,

     i  never expected a statement like "you are both wrong" to come from you-lol....Just because our opinion or interpretation differs from yours does ,not necessarily mean we are wrong as.....we may very well be but neither you or I have enough information given in Scripture to support our causes.......And as far as God not changing His mind that is not what I said,I said"His Will"......

     The Supreme Being,the Great I Am,Who eternally is(plus the 3 O's)never changes,this affirmation of unchangeable however is not designed to deny change and development taking place in Gods relationship to His creatures....His plans and purposes are immutable and all things are according to His Will......so,even in man petitioning God to change His "mind" and remind Him of His promises are still according to His "Will" & Divine purpose......God bless You

                                                                                                                                 With love,in Christ-Kwik

 

Mal 3:6,Heb 13:8,Psalm 102:25-27,33:10,90:2,Isaiah 14:24,46:9-11,Prov 19:21,Job 23:13,42:2

[Guest ninhao]

 

Dakilang Pag-asa, on 03 Dec 2013 - 01:20 AM, said:

Hey, ninhao. About your suggestion that I cannot assume that the seven years of plenty immediately happened after Joseph's rise to power, well, I can accept that there might have been a few years delay, but not for long. Here's what the Bible says about it:

There will come seven years of great plenty throughout all the land of Egypt, but after them there will arise seven years of famine, and all the plenty will be forgotten in the land of Egypt. The famine will consume the land, and the plenty will be unknown in the land by reason of the famine that will follow, for it will be very severe. And the doubling of Pharaoh's dream means that the thing is fixed by God, and God will shortly bring it about. (Genesis 41:29-32, ESV, emphasis mine)

So you see, the seven years of plenty must have happened very soon after the dream. Besides, you don't think that Joseph would have remained in power if his interpretation of the dream didn't immediately come true, do you?

 

 

 

 

Yes I can see this and I’m still crunching the numbers to see if the thing I’ve accepted and presented is plausible. Accounting for every year ( as much as possible ) is necessary for me to see the data trail.

 

 

 

 

 

And just to clarify, so you agree with me that the slavery of the Israelites didn't happen right after Joseph died? Because I didn't make that assumption; you did

 

 

 

 

I didn’t suggest the slavery began immediately after Joseph died but that it didn’t begin until after Joseph died. To be clear I meant that the slavery began sometime after Joseph’s death. I'm not sure what you mean here Dakilang Pag-asa I thought we did agree that the slavery didn't occur until after Joseph died.

 

 

 

 

And as to the population growth rate, I don't think it would be any good to talk about it because there are no exact figures of their population when the Israelites were enslaved by the Egyptians. All the Bible said is that they increased greatly and filled the land. Besides, there are factors to consider when talking about population growth rate (like living conditions), and we don't know what those factors were during this obscure time in history. So I don't accept anything.

~

 

 

I’m considering the population growth rates because they can be used to at least see if it’s plausible that the number of Israelite were large at the time they entered slavery using the timelines indicated. We can safely assume this growth rate is quite high because they were exceedingly fruitful and multiplied greatly. Population does increase relatively exponentially ( not withstanding disease catastrophe etc ) and in ideal conditions the rates become quite high.

 

Growth rates indeed are managed by conditions but, in the pre-slave era, the Israelite were considered fruitful and to multiply greatly which indicates a high growth rate. I think you will agree with this. After they entered slavery they multiplied faster.

 

 

Exo 1:12  But the more they were oppressed, the more they multiplied and spread; so the Egyptians came to dread the Israelites

 

 

I’ve accepted my understanding without fully investigating the implications and if the numbers don’t support the conclusion I’ll need to change my position. Thanks again for testing my knowledge and forcing study . I’ll get back to you.

[Dak]

Jerry notice Exodus says the Israelite spent a total length of time in Egypt of 430 years.

Exo 12:40-41 Now the length of time the Israelite people lived in Egypt was 430 years. (41) At the end of the 430 years, to the very day, all the LORD's divisions left Egypt.

The prophecy given to Abraham in Genesis concerned the period the Israelite would be enslaved and mistreated in Egypt.

Gen 15:13 Then the LORD said to him, "Know for certain that for four hundred years your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own and that they will be enslaved and mistreated there.

We know when the family of Israel first arrived in Egypt they were treated favourably because of Joseph and they weren't mistreated until after Joseph died. This period of freedom and blessing in Egypt was 30 years which was followed by 400 years of slavery before emancipation.

Exo 1:8-11 Then a new king, to whom Joseph meant nothing, came to power in Egypt. (9) "Look," he said to his people, "the Israelites have become far too numerous for us. (10) Come, we must deal shrewdly with them or they will become even more numerous and, if war breaks out, will join our enemies, fight against us and leave the country." (11) So they put slave masters over them to oppress them with forced labor, and they built Pithom and Rameses as store cities for Pharaoh.

There wasn't an extension of the 400 years but simply the first 30 years in Egypt weren't in slavery.

Hey ninhao, you were very specific in this: 30 years of freedom, immediately followed by 400 years of slavery. For a total period of 430 years. No transition period.

You might not have said it directly, but the implications are crystal: The Israelites were enslaved right after Joseph died, and that Joseph died after the Israelites were in Egypt only 30 years. This is why I've talked about Joseph's age and death, for Joseph clearly lived longer than that, and the Israelites also clearly received more than 30 years of favor from the Egyptians.

About the population growth rate, as I don't know much about it, I think I can accept what you'll say if you're able to come up with a reasonable time frame as to when the Israelites were enslaved after they came to Egypt However, as I do have some engineering and scientific background where numbers matter, I still think that it would be not so credible

~

[Jerry1023]

Blessings Brother Jerry,

i never expected a statement like "you are both wrong" to come from you-lol....Just because our opinion or interpretation differs from yours does ,not necessarily mean we are wrong as.....we may very well be but neither you or I have enough information given in Scripture to support our causes.......And as far as God not changing His mind that is not what I said,I said"His Will"......

The Supreme Being,the Great I Am,Who eternally is(plus the 3 O's)never changes,this affirmation of unchangeable however is not designed to deny change and development taking place in Gods relationship to His creatures....His plans and purposes are immutable and all things are according to His Will......so,even in man petitioning God to change His "mind" and remind Him of His promises are still according to His "Will" & Divine purpose......God bless You

With love,in Christ-Kwik

Mal 3:6,Heb 13:8,Psalm 102:25-27,33:10,90:2,Isaiah 14:24,46:9-11,Prov 19:21,Job 23:13,42:2

God bless you KwiK.you have been a wonderful sister to me in the Lord,I have been bless and learned alot from your post here,my bible tells me not to lean on my own understanding,beside that i love asking question,because i see myself as good listener,who desire to learn to the glory of God,the reason why i said both of you are wrong,is a mistake of tongue,i was Insinuating that i disagree with both of you,ninhao sugguested that the pastor was wrong,and you agreed with him,and i myself didn't agree with him,I concur with what the pastor said,no prayer no answer and no solution,As far as there is someone to pray,there is a God to answer,my bible tells me that the children of Israel cry out to God,and their cry came to God,and God located moses,I only disagree with the pastor,on the Issue of 400 and 430 years,both of them are biblical,but if you read your bible and search very well,base on some passages from the bilbe,any way the bible is like two edge sword,everything in side it are Amen and Amen,I have check my bible very well,400 and 430 years are both controversy,I believe the entire christian race is center on the word of God,my bible tells me that on the mountain of figuration,when Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus,they were talking,the bible didn't tell us what they where talking,i believe because this three young men,Peter,James and John, didn't asked Jesus,like wise when God was entering into agreement with Abraham,He was fast asleep,it's only when you ask that you will receive,Abraham asked God to show him sign,about the promise God made to him,when God came down to show him the sign he was sleeping,because he waited for God,for too long,if he was awaka he could have interceded for his children,

[Guest ninhao]

 

Hey ninhao, you were very specific in this: 30 years of freedom, immediately followed by 400 years of slavery. For a total period of 430 years. No transition period.

You might not have said it directly, but the implications are crystal: The Israelites were enslaved right after Joseph died, and that Joseph died after the Israelites were in Egypt only 30 years. This is why I've talked about Joseph's age and death, for Joseph clearly lived longer than that, and the Israelites also clearly received more than 30 years of favor from the Egyptians.

~

 

 

Why does the slavery necessarily need to immediately follow Joseph's death ?  At this stage I'm still considering the timing of the Israelite arrival into Egypt which seems important. I'll be done researching by the weekend.