Does Free Will Exist in the Bible?

[Quantrill]

 

For example:   Two of your children are drowning but are so far apart that you can only swim to one and resucue them.  You have to choose.   You have a will, but it is not free.  The situations surrounding you dictate a decision.  

 

This confuses will with ability. One only has the ability to save one, but one might will to save both. I think there is a different between will and ability.

 

 

No, if I am the father, my will is that I am not in that position. Or, my will is that I save both. But my will can't be done.   I don't want to make the decision.  But I have no choice.  I must decide.   My will is not 'free'.  It is locked into the situations I am given.  And the situations we are given are beyond us.

 

Quantrill

[Quantrill]

This seems to be another instance where it is assumed that God must determine all things for God to have foreknowledge.  Such an assumption seems to me to be baseless.

 

 

 

Why is it an assumption?  And why is it baseless?  

Edited March 2, 2014 by Quantrill

[EnochBethany]

 

 

How do you know God didnt put the kids out there in the example?    Perhaps it was a boating accident.    I guess God didn't see it coming. 

This seems to be another instance where it is assumed that God must determine all things for God to have foreknowledge.  Such an assumption seems to me to be baseless.

 

 

Why is it an assumption?  And why is it baseless?  

 

Quantril saith, "And the situations we are given are beyond us."

 

So true, Quant.  That is why we must keep eyes on the Lord Jesus, abide in fellowship with Him, trust Him continually, & pray for wisdom, as James 1 says.  For moral decisions we have a guaranteed wisdom provision.

[Quantrill]

 

 

 

There is either free will or some form of determinism. So, if you deny that the will is free, then you're left with determinism.

 

If man is unable to do the right thing then it's impossible for man to be guilty of anything. Any deterministic system of the will removes the responsibility from man and places it upon the agent doing the determining.

 

We see this in our legal systems everyday. If a harmful action is outside someone's control, then we call it an accident. For instance if someone drives a car and the tire burst and the car skids into a pedestrian hurting that person, then it's called an accident, because it couldn't have been avoided. If on the other hand the accident could have been avoided, then the driver is culpable.

 

 

If you can't control the things that come your way causing you to make decisions you don't want to, or have to, or want to, then how is it your will is free?  It isn't.  Only God has free will.  We have a will. Again, I am not saying we are not responsible for our actions and decisons.  But our will is not free.

 

Quantrill

[Quantrill]

EnochBethany

 

Amen brother.

 

Quantrill

[other one]

i would say that the decisions you have to make today are the result of decisions you previously made...  

[LuftWaffle]

 

 

For example:   Two of your children are drowning but are so far apart that you can only swim to one and resucue them.  You have to choose.   You have a will, but it is not free.  The situations surrounding you dictate a decision.  

 

This confuses will with ability. One only has the ability to save one, but one might will to save both. I think there is a different between will and ability.

 

 

No, if I am the father, my will is that I am not in that position. Or, my will is that I save both. But my will can't be done.   I don't want to make the decision.  But I have no choice.  I must decide.   My will is not 'free'.  It is locked into the situations I am given.  And the situations we are given are beyond us.

 

Quantrill

 

You're proving my point by when you say "My will can't be done". In other words there is your will, and then there is ability. Those are two separate things.

[LuftWaffle]

 

This seems to be another instance where it is assumed that God must determine all things for God to have foreknowledge.  Such an assumption seems to me to be baseless.

 

 

 

Why is it an assumption?  And why is it baseless?  

 

Well if it's not an assumption then what is it? Surely you don't have first hand knowledge of whether Gods foreknowledge is really just brute determinism?

[LuftWaffle]

 

 

 

There is either free will or some form of determinism. So, if you deny that the will is free, then you're left with determinism.

 

If man is unable to do the right thing then it's impossible for man to be guilty of anything. Any deterministic system of the will removes the responsibility from man and places it upon the agent doing the determining.

 

We see this in our legal systems everyday. If a harmful action is outside someone's control, then we call it an accident. For instance if someone drives a car and the tire burst and the car skids into a pedestrian hurting that person, then it's called an accident, because it couldn't have been avoided. If on the other hand the accident could have been avoided, then the driver is culpable.

 

 

If you can't control the things that come your way causing you to make decisions you don't want to, or have to, or want to, then how is it your will is free?  It isn't.  Only God has free will.  We have a will. Again, I am not saying we are not responsible for our actions and decisons.  But our will is not free.

 

Quantrill

 

You're redefining free will to mean maximal autonomy. Such a definition is incorrect.

No standard definition of free will requires that one be able to control every situation.

 

If you wish to continue using a different definition of free will, that's fine, I'll simply replace your word "free will" with "maximal autonomy" and nod in agreement.

But keep in mind that the topic under discussion isn't whether human being have maximal autonomy, but rather whether humans have free will as per the standard philosophical definition of libertarian free will.

[EnochBethany]

 

 

 

 

There is either free will or some form of determinism. So, if you deny that the will is free, then you're left with determinism.

 

If man is unable to do the right thing then it's impossible for man to be guilty of anything. Any deterministic system of the will removes the responsibility from man and places it upon the agent doing the determining.

 

We see this in our legal systems everyday. If a harmful action is outside someone's control, then we call it an accident. For instance if someone drives a car and the tire burst and the car skids into a pedestrian hurting that person, then it's called an accident, because it couldn't have been avoided. If on the other hand the accident could have been avoided, then the driver is culpable.

 

 

If you can't control the things that come your way causing you to make decisions you don't want to, or have to, or want to, then how is it your will is free?  It isn't.  Only God has free will.  We have a will. Again, I am not saying we are not responsible for our actions and decisons.  But our will is not free.

 

Quantrill

 

You're redefining free will to mean maximal autonomy. Such a definition is incorrect.

No standard definition of free will requires that one be able to control every situation.

 

If you wish to continue using a different definition of free will, that's fine, I'll simply replace your word "free will" with "maximal autonomy" and nod in agreement.

But keep in mind that the topic under discussion isn't whether human being have maximal autonomy, but rather whether humans have free will as per the standard philosophical definition of libertarian free will.

 

Determinism vs Free Will

How about a scale, 0-10 with

0= You can't do nothing.

1= You cain't hardly do nothing.

10 = You stand over the Key to Time & dictate omnipotently?

5 = you are impelled by opposing forces to the point that you don't know what to do; so you are stuck forever in a feedback cycle, pecking around the equilibrium.

 

Or you might have an influence scale with the Zeitgeist blowing on you at different intensities.

0 = no Zeitgeist, no persuaders.

10 = completely controlled by the politically correct.